So, what does everyone else think of it? I'm cautiously optimistic. On paper, it doesn't look particularly exciting, but I'm going to try running a one-man mini-adventure this fall to test it out.

DnD 4e is the most retarded thing I've ever seen. They take out all of the good parts and try to appeal to more people, leaving behind all the people that already buy into it, assuming that they will of course buy the next version.

its stupid instead of 9 alignments 5 alignments. THey killed off gnomes and half-orcs for no reason. and they dumbed it down. 4E is retarded and I sear I will stick to 3.5 then roll with this BS.

After shelling the first hellfire brimstone cursing when AD&D moved to v3.5, I decided to ignore the vast amounts of hate coming in all directions, and approach the edition with an open mind.

I've had three days to look over my newly aquired pdf, and have test run the system twice now at early levels, No(low) magic. Also, some of our crew did a playtest of the system, Here. I'm open to hearing people disagree with me as well, it might draw my attention to something that I overlooked in my scan.

• So far, I've been very impressed with the changes. Many of them allow a non-power built party to get along much better on their own then v3.5. Many of the issues that unbalanced v3.5 have been corrected in ways that are both fitting the game styles and well considered. HP is no longer a representation of how cut off your arm is with a necessary supply of gp to purchase healing; but instead, it is a representation of how much vigor you have to keep on fighting, so each character has their own ability to "catch their breath" after a fight is over. This ability is still very limited, and its attached to enough "other" abilities that it is worth saving in many cases. While this makes it easier for a PC to survive something, it also gives wings to a creative DM.

• The game has a more ingenious way of dealing with Monster combat, and with a bit of creative license given to any DM, you can expand upon these with relative ease should it strike your fancy. Personally, I was greatly impressed with the ease it takes to create some very entertaining monsters, and surprised at how much a monsters abilities amplify what they are, rather then Yay Toughness... cause its easy to calculate!

• I'm also a huge fan of the new skill set. I'll go into that another time. However I do recommend that a DM apply other uses for the Intelligent statistic, as it seems the newest underused stat. Personally, It was rather simple to incorporate another rather large addition to my game that covers this lack.

  I've heard some people say it sounds like a video game, and that it's too simple. After staring blankly at them for a few seconds, I have to ask, Why is that a bad thing? This system is much like its predecessor, its a system that handles expressing combat during RP. This system expresses a (seemingly) well balanced skeleton that is incredibly easy to craft additions too. In fact, having looked over the system, there is much more flavor within this one then the last.

• Alignments confused people all the time, who cares what they say they are. If CG is now included in G- fine. IF LE is now labeled with E, fine. LN, CN, and N are now called unaligned... which is basically what they were before. Honestly, every change someone bickers at can be easily corrected by the DM if they agree.

• Yes, it sounds like I'm selling this system to you. Honestly, there are allot of things that bug me. Some of the naming conventions in the classes are juvenile, some of the descriptions need scratched out and reconsidered with a level of realism. I'm not a huge fan of them Adding in the Eladrin, Dragonblooded, nor Tiefling into the main selection of races; however, as a DM thats an incredibly easy fix. (DM says 'No') The action point system has me cautious, but I've a feeling I can make that work rather easily once I've adapted into the 4.0. The warlock class is utterly horrible. Barbarian will show up as a style of fighter sometime in the future.

• Adding races is a cake walk, so halforc, and Gnome are simple to put back in. (gnome is setup in the Monster manual anyway)

• Your characters class says something about what type of character you're playing. Within each class there lies a variety of completely different but equally useful builds. Heck, level 1 is a good place to start now, unlike v3.5. However, Multiclassing has been massacred. It has been done in a way that I completely agree with. Power gaming the classes is much more difficult. But, You can still adopt characteristics of another class, and they've worked in ways for any class to hone their abilities through a balanced retraining system.

• I can talk for another hour or two on what I've read up so far, but honestly, the only things I have an issue with are easy to fix. The Roleplaying part of the game hasn't changed at all, so I've a feeling most of the hate is people banwagoning a few peoples inability to accept change. This is a better system then v3.5 by far. Just fix the parts you don't like. (including anything they F***ed up in Faerun canon <_>)

Oh, while I'm thinking about it, I'll add this:

Building new classes are a major downside to this. It will take you a very long time to work out the details, and will likely require an extensive understanding of the powers of certain abilities at that level in every class.

Because of the way the system is built, you'll end up naming and converting somewhere along the lines of 50 abilities, on top of a couple feats and some nifty class abilities.

Its an easy system to add things too, but because of the size of each class, it would just be allot of work to quickly assemble something completely different.

...I have no fucken idea what the 3.5 rules are. or the 3.0, or the 2.0, or first addition.

I just play the fricken game.

They're trying to appeal to players of World of Warcraft, and other MMORPGs. With stuff such as, simpler rules, 'special attacks', and just really a 'younger' version of the game.

In the end, it will be easier to create console games off of it, which I will buy to support and further the production of them.

I am afraid of change. : (

I actually agree with Ebok. I haven't had a chance to play it, but I've looked at the rules. Over all, I like it. It feels... 'cleaner' and more 'streamlined' than 3.5. Which is a good thing, IMO.

That isn't to say that there aren't some negatives involved, but really it was better than I thought it would be. I wish there was a way to convert NWN to the 4E rules. >_>

IMO, 3rd ed is Morrowind, and 4th is Oblivion.

I think some of you are ignoring the story changes made in this edition to our poor Forgotten Realms setting. Suffice to say, they may as well have simply posted a big sign, encouraging everyone to move to Ebberon.

I think some of you are ignoring the story changes made in this edition to our poor Forgotten Realms setting. Suffice to say, they may as well have simply posted a big sign, encouraging everyone to move to Ebberon.

Forth edition can be played in 1372 DR without any issues what-so-ever.

In your game, any event you aren't happy with, -never happened-. Perhaps someone can tell me why we should care what the canon material for the Realms is?

Yes, I am aware that I can invent my own game. However, I play this one because I like it, and used to have faith in the majority of WotC's ability as story tellers. However, they failed us with the 4E stories.

Simply stating that I can ignore what I don't like is silly. If I wanted to play a game completely outside of their devising, I would not be here! Clearly, I enjoy the majority of what they pump out, however I am growing increasingly less convinced that we are in good hands, as it were.

Truth.

Story wise these people don't know what they are doing. Too many hands in the same cookie jar.

I thought this was about 4th Edition D&D and not 4th Edition Forgotten Realms, which are two completely separate things. >_>

I mostly dislike the changes made to the 4E Realms, but I'm going to give the 4E FRCS a look anyway, just out of morbid curiosity. Some of the changes I know I'll like - such as axing most of Mystra's 3 billion Chosen, and the over-meddling Mystra herself. It just sucks that 4E FR lost the Weave as a result, but considering there are many different power sources for magic I guess that makes sense, even though I was a big fan of the concept.

The setting had some serious bloat and baggage going on, though. I just hate the way they dealt with it. Need I mention Maztica, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara? TSR just tacked on stuff to the Realms like anything would fit, and obviously most of that does not.

I'm a big fan of Realmslore though, so the changes are most likely going to make me want to burn the book.

But that has nothing to do with the 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons ruleset, which I think, over all from what I've seen, is pretty good.

what where the changes made to forgotten realms?

I like the mechanics, they're simpler and they don't make building a character a two hour chore. The Faerun stuff is ridiculous.

Helm does not get killed over a lover's feud.

HELM DIES!? AM I HEARING THIS! HE BETTER NOT BE HE BETTER NOT BE!

Whats next Bane Turns Chaotic Good and Cyric Turns Chaotic Neutral?

Torm kills Helm, over Tymora.

Enough said.

WTF!? Let me guess knowing feminine mentality Tymora rejects Torm for being a jealouse brutish Idiot Pig. If I am wrong then the creators of 4E do not wonderstand woman at all.

It's Tyr, not Torm.

Well the FR setting changes do sound somewhat dumb to me, so what, just play Eberron, I think it's pretty neat.

Dr Dragon WTF!? Let me guess knowing feminine mentality Tymora rejects Torm for being a jealouse brutish Idiot Pig. If I am wrong then the creators of 4E do not wonderstand woman at all.

Dr. Love.

Anyway, where can we find a comprehensive account of changes to the FR setting?

That comes out next month.

Or this month, or something.

I am an Ed Greenwood and Forgotten Realms fan from way back (I don't feel comfortable telling all you youngsters my age lol), having played quite alot of PnP and the like. I have to say, I do like the changes with mechanics but the FR stuff is bollocks!

Huh? what's this about editions? I want my THAC0 back...

Don't worry Flamin' Pete, i'm old too...

THAC0 = LOL + Eb0l

Off the top of my head:

Sune gets Tymora to enter into an arranged political marriage with Tyr to manage the power shift in the planes as Siamorphe leaves Tyr's divine Realm for Sune's. Tyr sends Helm to manage the details, something goes wrong, maybe something along the lines of 'You stole my girl, yo.', and Helm challenges Tyr to a duel which he promptly loses. Cyric is expected to be involved somehow. Tymora, like a slave in chains, gets hauled off to Tyr's divine realm.

Eilistraee and Lolth enter into a Sava game. (This is written about in a Novel Trilogy.) This game eventually went on to encompass the rest of the Drow Pantheon as well. Eilistraee kills Vhaeraun, absorbing his essence into herself, becoming the Masked Lady, and most likely CN instead of CG. Selvetarm and Kiaransalee also die. Ghaunadaur finally goes, 'wtf? I'm a god of slime! Why am I in the Drow Pantheon again?' Then promptly leaves. Eilistraee the Masked Lady is killed by Lolth, but claims victory because she said that was her plan all along. Basically, she sacrificed herself to redeem the Drow. Except, it turns out, it's only a small handful. Drow apparently have demonic blood stretching back from generations past. All those Drow with a drop of demonic blood are not redeemed, and all those who are free of it (even if they are Spiderkissers) they are then turned into dark skin 'Dark Elves'. That is what they were prior to the curse. Of course, they were still in the Underdark and lost their Darkvision when that happened. (That is so funny. Talk about not thinking out your plan.)

As an unintended consequence of this new lore Drizzt apparently has demonic blood in him. This means he is not redeemed and that when he dies his soul will belong to Lolth.

Shar and Cyric tag team Mystra and kill her in her own divine realm. The Weave goes boom and then the Spellplague happens.

Halruua blows up in a giant explosion.

Maztica, Unthur and some other lands disappear into Abeir, apparently another world that was once closely linked to Toril. Those lands were replaced by lands that came from Abeir.

Most of the Chosen of Mystra end up dead or missing. Only Elminster is known to remain, but he cannot use his magic, because every time he does he hears voices and fights to keep control of his own body. Most other high level folk seem to end up dead or missing too.

Szass Tam makes a bid for complete control of Thay, summoning and binding an avatar of Bane, Thay is promptly fux0red by the Spellplague and is now one giant mountain or something. A giant mountain that Szass Tam now apparently rules undisputed.

Cormyr becomes Imperial Cormyr.

Shades found New Netheril and take control of Sembia.

Before all of this a giant tear of Selune crashed into the planet, in an event known as the Rain of Fire. This devastated Sembia.

Numerous other bad things happen.

The 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting comes out next month, and there will be a 100 Year jump in the time line after all these events.

EDIT: Forgot to add that Lathander has now apparently become Amaunator.

Also there are only a handful of deities now, and the rest of the gods have been demoted to some type of servitor status of the rest of the deities.

The Planes get re-arranged.

There is no more Blood War. Devils and Demons get completely retconned.

Lovely summery Meldread. I'll hold my own opinions of the world changes until I get the full story.

The Devil and Demons have already been touched upon with the 4e Material thats out currently. Personally, I love what they did with the planes. I might second guess the elemental chaos, but it has allot of potential.

The feywild and Shadow planes over lap the material, which, depending on the creativity of your DM, could be rife with possibilities. They've made some promises to work more with Aberations and the Far Realm too.

Planes mentioned were:

1. The Elemental Chaos and the Abyss
2. The Astral Sea (the gods realm)
   • The Nine Hells
   • Arvandor
   • Tytherion, called the Endless Night
   • The Iron Fortress of Chernoggar
   • Celestia
3. The World and its Echoes
   • The First Work
   • Feywild
   • Shadow Plane
4. Beyond (Far Realms)

Celestials are nothing like what they were either. Angels and Archons are unaligned, or of any alignment. They are now basically the foot soldiers for deities, and warriors for deities. Meaning you get to see some awesome new ways for high level adventures to get involved with their deities wars. Plus angels can be used more then merely anti bloodwar spill over NPCs.

Kinda cool. I'd post more, but I'm sure there is copyright issues with me retyping larger sections of text quoted from a book that just came out.

I am not all that bothered. I am not all that crazy about FR, seeing it mostly as a piece of swill churned out by hacks without an even rudimentary understanding of what makes a good plotline. So, any change I am quite indifferent too. It's not like the setting had all that much integrity to begin with. Without going into depth, I think it’s obvious that much of it is either tacked on, or merely a half arsed exercise in copy-pasting cultures from Tolkien, generic fantasy or RL into one big, messy world.

With regards to the new mechanics, I think it’s worth pointing out that mechanical simplicity does not necessarily bring with it a lack of complexity. The S.P.E.C.I.A.L system from Fallout is a pretty good example. Whilst being extremely simple in It’s composition, it allows a significant number of character choices and allows you to craft a character which unique. It is often easy to equate needless mechanical details with depth, but this is not always the case. I mean, the sheer fact that the majority of people are made into one of a small number of ‘Classes’ gives one a prejudice of how a certain character will act from day one.

Linelle Well the FR setting changes do sound somewhat dumb to me, so what, just play Eberron, I think it's pretty neat.

ftw

I'll just point out at this time that 4E is 4E D&D, NOT 4E AD&D and as such is a completely different game much like the original red boxed basic set D&D all those years ago!

(Not that this makes it bad, I'm just pointing it out. I loved D&D paricularly for it's simplicity but then, I was 8.)

For all of you who love AD&D as opposed to D&D I have the answer, and it is published by WOTC as well.

PATHFINDERhttp://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG

it's been heralded as AD&D 3.75, see what you think.

@Dangerous Dan: Hell yes, S.P.E.C.I.A.L. is a work of genius! (A Cunning Plan to fix the game mechanics after Black Isle couldn't use GURPS for Fallout, but still genius)

You're free to design how you want and take whatever combination of skills suits. You can take build around stealth, machineguns and diplomacy should you want such an unusual concept. I love the Traits too. They're optional 1st level "feats" that have both a upside and a downside.

Iike making unusual characters, but some classes are easier to do it with in D&D or NwN than others.

I'm not big on change or trying new things. I always get the same sub from Subway, and the same steak from Hogs Breath. But i've noticed some fairly good things with the combat mechanics. Alot of the attacks can effect the combat rather dynamiclly.

The Rouge has few that end up positioning foes 3 to 4 squares from their original position, setting enemies up for more charges, or getting rid of their flanking bonuses. Quite a few of the attacks Mark an opponent giving it minuses if it doesn't attack the marker, taking heat off the less combat able. A few combos can be made from Marking if i've read well.

Rules for flanking are much more useable. The main fighter classes have other attacks that can assist other party members to. These things make combat much more tactical. Never played the D&D minitures game, but i suppose the dabbling in that has helped make combat a much more interactive experience.

But it still isn't my Chicken fillet on white with lettuce, onions tomato, old english cheese and ceaser dressing. But i'm giving it another go next weekend.

Here is how I think the people who made 4E came up with the realm changes.

Boss Man "Nerds got any ideas?"

Nerds "No"

Boss Man "You Nerds better be worth this money and make some new changes quick or youll expierience how your treated in High School!"

Nerds "Anyone got ideas"

Nerds No

Stupid Nerd. "Well everyone in school who was cool got high. so maybe if we get high well come up with something cool!"

Rest of the Nerds "Thats a great idea"

*Moments later they all get high and come up with changes"

Nerds that are high "Dudes Lets freaking Kill off Mystra shes a bitch and the weave is stupid!"

Nerds that are high "Ok Drow IDeas PPPL Lets Freaking Do all this stuff that dosent make sense kill vhaerune kill Elistrae and do all this confusing shit that dosent make sense YEA"!"

Nerds that are high. "Lets do a ton of other stupid shit that makes no sense and completly twist it all around YEAHHHHHHHHH YEAH!"

Nerds that are high "BOSS LOOK WHAT WE CAME UP WITH!"

Boss man "Good lets print this"

Nerds that are hgh "Hey lets get high on some more seriouse stuff and make some more changes in future Books AWSOME!"

That is the truth of all these changes.

Oh and Moradin kills Ladugauer and Clangeddin kill Deep Duerra, and Hammergrim (where Ladu and Duerra live drifts off in to the abyss).

Before they die the duergar gods take Gorm and Haela with them.

Oh and the Ancient Aboleths are set free by some Star elf and start causing mischief

Wait, Duergars have no Gods?

Godless little fat-so's

A truly amazing rendition of the quest to create Fourth Edition Forgotten Realms, Dr Dragon. Such a thing is worthy of the most honourable of praises!

Please find enclosed Special, Magical WELL DONE PEANUTS!

Just to return from the abyss to comment on DnD 4.0

I have to say I also like the mechanics changes.

Skills are streamlined, the multiclass system of 3.5 has been axed (which I personally didn't like... but yet still people request NWN2 add the ability to multiclass to five classes :S), classes and races seem really well balanced, monster creation and adaptability are very easy, the powers & milestones systems works to avoid 8 hour rests after every encounter.

Changes to alignment, while they sound odd, work in practice exactly like the 3.5 system except that people no longer argue over interpretation as much.

And yes, those concerned about missing races or classes will probably find it is easy to bring them back.

I recommend the following for those who are violently opposed to DnD 4.0: Click here

The changes to Realmslore will be hard to swallow, but at the same time - if they kept the timeline static and never added to canon then people would get bored. It's all a bit extreme at the moment, but if anyone else can log in at the Wizards website, you can read the actual previews here.

Thanks Chez

As for the Realms, I'm not sure what they did was a bad thing. Honestly, I'm liking much of what the new changes could do for the setting.

I am a LOONNGGG time player of Dungeons & Dragons, who has been around the block a few times with changes to the game...ala 1st Edition rule set back in 1979. And I have a copy of the new core rules here for 4.0.

One thing you are all forgetting is something that has been a part of the game since the very first set of books. These are guide lines, not set in stone rules. Take what works for your world and use it.

This is why there has always been "Homebrew" worlds. Where DM's have taken the time to add things that make it better for his players.

Now I have not fully read over the 4.0 stuff yet. But I will say that I do like that they (WoTC) has made it easier to read the books. The stuff flows as your reading. Aka, it does not feel like your reading stereo instructions! And I am not happy they took away some of the Alignments. It will make transferring preexisting characters harder. One thing I wish they did do was to create a step by step guide to changing over, like they did in 3.0.

Just my 2 cents.