Well, Today I had a somewhat irksome incidence:

A gnome was walking through Montezzi territory, wearing a helm.

I told her to remove the helm.

she just decided not to, said so, and walked off into the Canal, And I was utterly unable to stop her due to no DM.

When I PM'ed her about it, she kindly informed me "Its your job to get a DM for PvP, I don't have to wait around for you to get one"

For law enforcement, PvP is often necessary. And getting a DM is often hard.

Either that, Or perhaps we can hit them with paralyzing spells and KD, but not full subdue them?

After discussing these issues, I believe it should be the following, rather.

It is the responsibility of someone who will provoke PvP to get a DM. This is already a rule, but is not enforced in Lower. If you are going to break the laws, you should get a DM, just as if you were going to break them in Upper. Even if you do not agree with the IC justification, these are OOC issues, and there is little place for agreeing with the laws or rules.

To give an example, if Aleczumberzail walked from the gate to Lower, it is his players responsibility to get a DM, because the watch wants to kill him or something. It is not an excuse that "he was just going to be there for two minutes", and it really should not be avoided. Conflict can be sweet, and lead to conflict that makes the server more fun. Not all PvP is just FD + LOOT + run away.

It's your responsibility to get a DM if you want to PvP, not mine. I'm under no obligation to stick around for it.

Please don't misquote, AND add a spelling error to it. Urgh.

This is a tricky question. If a player willingly commits an act that will obviously provoke a party to the point where PvP seems a likely possibility, yes, that player ought to make sure a DM is present. However, this isn't something we can in any way enforce (because we're usually not there when it happens), and so, ultimately, the responsibility falls to the person who takes the first unquestionably hostile action (usually attacking). Bioluminescence is right, in essence, but it's no excuse for calling Rinaldo a jerkface if you know a DM isn't there.

Unfortunately, the Montezzi faction is not yet influential enough to warrant giving them the same benefits as law enforcers in Old Sanctuary.

Bioluminescence

It's your responsibility to get a DM if you want to PvP, not mine. I'm under no obligation to stick around for it.

Please don't misquote, AND add a spelling error to it. Urgh.

Perhaps I missunderstood you, that you say "missquote". What exactly did you mean?

I agree their are times my char plans to mug/down someone. and when im getting a Dm he just downs invis and flees. It can be lame sometimes.

If you're planning to mug someone, get a DM in advance.

I actually agree with trendymonster on this one, and Snoteye too when he says that if you're going to engage in an activity which is likely going to result in PvP (in this case wearing a helm in Montezzi territory knowing you'll refuse to remove it when asked) then it seems common sense to get a DM beforehand.

The DM team will discuss this and get back to you all!

Would the same principle exist for employees of the Crone?

If someone walks in and does something that is hostile (the usual things that would get you thrown out - starting trouble etc.) but a DM is not avaliable is it ok to PVP, without their presence?

Some guidance would be great.

That exact question is addressed in the PvP section of the FAQ.

Hot off the press:

Official stance: "Please get a DM if you intend on intentionally doing any action that you suspect will lead to PvP".

Pretty commonsense. Have a good day.

Found the bit about the Crone after some searching... my bad for not fully reading the FAQ's.

MadCaddies Hot off the press:

Official stance: "Please get a DM if you intend on intentionally doing any action that you suspect will lead to PvP".

Pretty commonsense. Have a good day.

I'm assuming this works both ways? I.E.: When a single PC starts talking scrap about a specific race or faction while standing in the middle of three or four of them in Upper or maybe when a member of the Watch states, "Don't move you're under arrest!" and the PC just walks away and hits the stairs.

This kind of stuff happens all the time, why is it a factor now?

The Watch don't need to have a DM to make an arrest. As long as there is a PC watchman present, you don't need an NPC one. Should there, however, be no PC watchmen around, you do need a DM to break laws, since there are NPC's around that would arrest you in this case.

Am I right?

And, in Lower, the Guard wouldn't exactly be stopped by NPC's should they attempt to beat down someone considered a criminal, and besides, there -is- an NPC guard there. So, breaking the law in Lower will always result in PvP, or usually, and to break the law simply because there is no DM that could give the Guard the right to punish you for it, you are taking OOC advantage and creating immense IC awkwardness.

P.S: This is becoming a factor now, because Lower is becoming increasingly like Upper regarding crime and enforcement.

It's a factor because it was brought up, but it's not a new stance. I cleaned up my first post and highlighted a few key words.

Snoteye If a player wilfully commits an act that will obviously provoke a party to the point where PvP seems a likely possibility, that player ought to make sure a DM is present. However, this isn't something we can in any way enforce, and so, ultimately, the responsibility falls to the person who takes the first indisputably hostile action.

To avoid such ridiculous situations, I suggest giving the Mont pcs the right to subdue (only subdue, no looting) people that breaks the law, and tell them to stay down, or to log until a dm is present.

Unfortunately, the Montezzi faction is not yet influential enough to warrant giving them the same benefits as law enforcers in Old Sanctuary.

Montezzi rules both Lower and the Canal with an iron fist. They've a posted set of laws, judicial system to enforce them and guardsmen as well. How much more influential do you need to be?

<pyth> It just struck me odd, the influence comment. We have a whole shit load of influence >_> <Snoteye> I'm not saying you don't. <pyth> just not enough to enforce laws without a DM...which I'd guess the mentioned non-app status of the faction plays a part in <Snoteye> It does, yeah. <Snoteye> There are a lot of factors to consider. <Snoteye> As a player faction, we don't have any direct influence on the laws, for instance. <Snoteye> So we'd have to more or less take over control of the faction to ensure you don't pull out something absurd. <Snoteye> Not that we expect it to happen, but still. <pyth> absurd like, no armor in the realm, and 500 gold tolls to pass through stuff <pyth> yeah, makes sense

Snoteye It's a factor because it was brought up, but it's not a new stance.

Montezzi’s now have “law enforcement agents” and they should have to deal with it in game. It should not be my responsibility to call a DM every time I walk into Lower or the Canal Ward. Because, trust me, three out of four of my PC’s (the three listed in my signature) can inadvertently become a PvP in these areas.

Your thread addressed an entirely IC problem. This thread addresses an entirely OOC problem. As far as responsibility goes, see the post you quoted.

DMs are still required for PvP in Lower.

DMs are not required if you want to walk around in Lower with a helmet on or whatever law a PC faction intends on trying to enforce.

Yes as a matter of good sportsmanship it is recommended that you try to get a DM if your character is going to pursue actions that you believe will be highly antagonistic and/or lead to PvP. Players taking advantage of no-DMs being around to taunt or flaunt their immunity in some way is best avoided, although this appears to be rare.

I don't understand RIPnogar's comparison, because the two issues don't seem to compare. Watch/Spellguard could and can arrest or initiate PvP in Upper Sanctuary without a DM hanging around. This thead appears to me about whether a PC faction, having seized territory, can pursue PvP without a DM, and our answer as a DM team is no, they can't at this time.

I.E. If you know OOc it is against the law to where a helm in Lower, yet still intend to have your charecter do so anyways. Then you know PvP is a possibility. Get a DM for it, unless you intend to submit the first time and never where a helm in lower again.

Taking advantage of the fact that you know there is no DM online, therefore you can get away from PvP, is frankly bullshit. I fully intend on avoiding such people OOC and IG, and I encourage others to do the same.

Rules bending is rule breaking.

No, sorry. I don't care what laws a PC faction establishes, something like wearing a helm in Lower while passing through is not something that requires a DM to oversee. Sorry.

Yes, a PC that goes up to a member of a Montezzi faction, insults them, breaks various IC "laws," moons them, whatever should, as a matter of good sportsmanship, try to do so with a DM witnessing. This is somewhat subjective though, so there's no rule about it - simply a suggestion in terms of how to be a good sport.

It is mostly a matter of common sense, I think.

I think the ruling has been made, and, as far as I can tell, it is unlikely that it will happen again, and even if it does, it isn't exactly the end of the world.

/me would like to request a lock before the swords get drawn

My 2 cents.

The previous gangs of lower that had Pc members but were generally DM factions in a way had free PvP when they were in reign. If I recall correctly the reason lower now needs a DM for pvp was mainly because of griefing lower levels or generally causing PvP that is not needed. Yes they may refuse to take their helm off, but in return to that you can go through all the lawful actions of remembering who that was and instating a punishment against them in the future for refusing to obey.

Unfortunately, thats not how montezzi law works.

Incorrect.

The reason we removed Free PvP from Lower Sanctuary was because people neglected to play by the rules.

In this case, my character, was simply passing through lower with a helm on. While breaking the law, that's hardly highly antagonistic, and considering on previous occasions only resulted in me being asked to leave (which is what I did, though admittedly, not via the most expediant route), PvP was hardly expected.

It is a bright purple helm. If you want to get a DM to try to PvP me over it, OK, but as has sensibly been said here by Howl, one really shouldn't need to get a DM everytime they want to pass through Lower while sporting headgear. That's really not conducive to anything good.

This issue has been eating me some, but in light of the clear stance of the DMs to previous Lower PvP requests I had held my tongue. I am glad someone else bought it us so I can just give a few examples of events in game.

- The run through. Ever since the start, players have taken the opportunity to run or walk through the territory knowing the Montezzi faction cannot respond. Even if there is a DM online they know that none will be summoned before they exit the territory. Characters who have beaten my character down, stolen his possessions, openly declared their hatred of Montezzi and/or wearing a helmet and drawn weapons, have run/casually walked past my character and his posse. I am a moderately fast typer. I usually get a "/DM PvP Lower" and a "Oi you, stop" off before the character is out of hearing range, but even with a DM on, there is no way they are so unoccupied they can port in and oversee in the 12 seconds it takes to leave Lower. My favourite example of this was when I was questing with an alt in Upper, with a group that decided to do Volts. The party leader rammed on a helm and said "Ill see you there". Someone said (IC) words to the effect of "Hey wont that offend the Montezzi's, be careful" and the leader replied "Of course it will offend them, that's the idea, but there is nothing they can do about it" and he ran down the stairs.

- When there is no DM online the suspension of disbelief becomes greater still. We had a warparty, complete with drawn weapons and helms, walk through the fortress. It's our faction area, so PvP is legal, but I still wanted to get some RP in first, in the name of fun and good sportsmanship. I was ignored IC and the party walked into the Red Skull's QA, where I could not give chase. I gathered some faction folks and waited for them to exit. Of course we were RPing when they came out, and half way though typing an unrelated sentence, half of them walk outside before I can say something. The last couple of people shrug when faced with several armed characters and take off their helms. Relieved I go outside to continue watch. The entire group is out there, wearing helms and with weapons drawn. I ask them again to obey the law, and of course now they don't, knowing they are safe. Suddenly they show a whole deal of pluck, name calling and trash talking us and Montezzi in general. This goes on for five minutes before they disperse and the gang of Montezzi's log off in impotent frustration.

These are just a couple of examples, but as a player with a Montezzi character for a long time, they are certainly not 'rare' as was suggested. It is a daily occurrence, and one that I have simply trained myself to tune out as much as possible.

I'd just point out that people that generally 'abuse' the system usually dont win in the long-run. The system will most likely come back to bite them in the arse one day and that bite is going to be a lot more painful then shrugging off a few insults or just sucking up your big ego and letting a few blow slide.

Generally, people who throw insults... in front of Watchmen, in front of NPC with no DM present, after being subdued... etc... are generally not the cream of the crop in terms of sportmanship, probably PvP skill too if they need to resort to these things and therefore ... this false sense of security generally does no good on the long run!

Just breathe, let it go and plan your next move...

It goes both ways, Roger, Montezzis trash talk, insult, and bait people as well, they then expect you to get a DM if you want to respond in kind.

Try not to let this turn into the blame game.

I have seen at least 4 occasions of people blatantly ignoring Montezzi law, while also taunting Montezzi people. This really bothers me. Really. At least be quiet or understated if you intend to pass through Lower. Or step up and OWN your char's statements. If you insult a Montezzi, go to a designated site and hash it out.

Play fair God Damn it! :(

P.S.-- I am in no way involved in the Montezzi faction.

In conclusion:

* Be a good sport to yourself and fellow players. Those who are considerate win the most respect, which will go a long way with how players and DMs view them.

* Use common sense. If you think you are making action that could provoke PVP, at least alert the DM channel. Even if no DM shows up, at least you can say you made the effort, which is something rather than nothing.

* At this time, the Montezzi faction will not have any exclusive PVP rights in Lower Sanctuary. This may be a possibility in the future, but let's not get our hopes up!

* Those we catch explicitly abusing times when DMs are offline will be penalized. I understand this is up to interpretation, and I do not believe we've ever had to actually ban or make any other action for this. We're a solid community of folks, so I have faith that this will continue to not be a problem.