When is enough, enough? Why is it that ‘team good’ can be harassed, beaten and or killed if they go into lower and ‘team bad’ gets free reign to go where they please? I think by now at least a few of the Montezzi organization can be easily identified and named. Shouldn’t this put some type of warrant on them by the Watch at least, if not dub them as enemies to all Watch NPC’s? I feel that when these PC’s are seen in Upper they should be arrested, tried and stoned like any other murders. I mean come on, even Capone’s bunch had to go into hiding after a killing spree.

This is something entirely IC to pursue.

This server really goes both ways..

All evil

All good

Evil bitches

And hours later good bitches

Etc

etc

etc

Thats life in EFU, it turns rotates and continues. Allot of what happens is magnified by word of mouth. And cores right, you're particular examples for discussion are all long complicated politically minded IC actions. If you want to know, ask IC. Ask the people you expect to do something about it. Maybe You're the one to convince them to do something.

I have and still am, IC perusing it. I guess I have reported a 'spy' to the wrong people, because nothing has come of it. (Guess I’ll keep trying.)

RIPnogarD, you seem to misunderstand the way to deal with these things. The swings and roundabouts of Escape from the Underdark are entirely IC, and should be dealt with as such. Few people are openly 'good' in Sanctuary, many dealing with the 'shade of grey' moral scale. If you've concerns, it should be entirely IC and not dealt with OOC.

While I agree that this is an IC issue... there is something you can do to better cope with the situation OOC.

Don't think of EfU in terms of 'good' and 'evil'. In fact, the problem you are having is with 'Law' and 'Chaos'. Though even this doesn't help.

You need to remember that this is a game of people. People are wildly varied in the way they interact with the world. Any given person, no matter how good, will have some bad tendencies and vice versa. The most lawful of lawmen will do something brash and chaotic now and then. And to save yourself from pulling your hair out because this 'good guy' is now doing 'bad' things, you shouldn't pigeon hole people into these categories.

Let the characters be who they will be.

Dude the watch does post warrants on criminals/murderers. Also the fact team good is beaten openly in Lower is explained! Hell theirs a sign in inbetween to explain lower is dangerouse! You dont like getting beat up in Lower get out of Lower! Thats why a certain Corupt watch dwarf hated lowersman!

Thats why a certain Corupt watch dwarf hated lowersman!

...and we all follow his dogma. Upper is law, anyone can walk into the Herald's office, get a citizen stone and automatically be protected from everyone save for wicked agents and corrupt Doctors. Unless they are criminals (and they are only seen as criminals if they perform a crime within Upper) in which case they are vulnerable to...Well, wicked agents and corrupt doctors.

In my oppinion, goods losing, and its a good thing 'cause Team Good needs some serious threats to keep 'em in shape. It gets boring just waiting for the next evil to attack.

There have been a few Councilors *hint hint* that have been asking the people what they think of all this. : )

I do suggest you get in game and read up on the history of Lower Sanctuary, along with the other suggestions that have been placed in this thread. If you can't find material in the Book Shops, just ask around, you'll find the knowledge you come accross to be infinitely useful when trying to understand why things are as they are currently.

Getting tired of hearing the “go read” spiel. I role-play my characters, just because I personally have read this doesn’t mean every one of my PC’s has. Hell I have a half-orc monk that I consider illiterate, and all PC’s that are only barbarian cannot read (this is canon). Sanctuary is a city of ‘ex-slaves’ what do you suppose the education level is. It isn’t always about IC and OOC, sometimes it’s about player knowledge and PC knowledge.

RIPnogarD Getting tired of hearing the “go read” spiel. I role-play my characters, just because I personally have read this doesn’t mean every one of my PC’s has. Hell I have a half-orc monk that I consider illiterate, and all PC’s that are only barbarian cannot read (this is canon). Sanctuary is a city of ‘ex-slaves’ what do you suppose the education level is. It isn’t always about IC and OOC, sometimes it’s about player knowledge and PC knowledge.

Don't you get tired of posting flaming opinions that show a complete lack of regard for all the information in game that is readily available to you and that contradicts what you're saying on the forums?

This isn't a "good vs. evil" server. That segment of alignment does not drive most conflict. Its been suggested to you, that if you read through the server history as a person ooc-that you'll figure this out.

Instead, you've jumped up and screamed that you have an illiterate character and are now ranting about the education level of most player characters and failed to get the actual point.

So calm down a little and consider the way this server is set up. The conflicts are not designed to be good versus evil; nor law versus chaos (although that is more readily apparent in game than good vs evil). The conflict is about history and faction and politics.

RIPnogarD It isn’t always about IC and OOC, sometimes it’s about player knowledge and PC knowledge.

In Character (IC) knowledge= Player Character (PC) Knowledge Out of Character (OOC) knowledge = Player Knowledge

SO GO ASK PC WATCH AND SPELLGUARD AND COUNCIL WHY THEY AREN'T DOING ANYTHING!

Ouch & double OUCH.

Ok, I’m not the one flaming and getting excited here. I guess I should just take for granted that all the goblins in lower have spent time in Uppers library and know Sanctuary’s entire history and that all the NPC and PC Watchman can’t differentiate between good guys and bad guys.

I did say I’d keep trying IC. . .

Everyone relax. The original poster asked some questions, which would be better addressed through IC methods. If you can't find anyone to explain this to you IC, you could always just send a letter through our handy-dandy IC Letters and Notes forum.

In the meantime, I'd repeat that you're missing three years of incredibly complicated context (both OOC, in terms of our philosophy about being a world shaped by PCs, and also the complexities of a setting with a huge divide). So with that in mind, good luck exploring the server and its many complexities!

RIPnogarD. To address your concerns.

You posted, upon the General Discussion forum complaining about events that were happening ICly. This, usually, isn't the way to get things sorted out (unless you have a problem with player conduct and wish to stimulate a discussion. This usually pertains to rules/OOC etiquette issues such as looting, etc.)

In his blunt way of handling things, Oroborous was generally upon the money. Reading documents on the forums will help you gain an understanding of the server- which, by your conduct seems to be affecting you in an OOC manner, as opposed to IC. Now, if you prefer to keep your characters in the dark, I'd be quite happy to talk with you on IRC regarding the themes/way in which our server is run.

The DM Team, as a body, prides itself from having policies which make sense IC, and having a setting which is consistent and nuanced. 'Team Good' does not always triumph, because our setting is grim, darkly humorous and somewhat nihilistic. Being good is not always a downhill run.

Overall, I'd advise you to take the story for what it is, and not concentrate too much upon winning, or losing. We are interested in telling an interesting story.

Finally, I'd be glad to chat to you on IRC, or you can look me up IG if you see me.

Best regards,

- DM DangerousDan.

Actually I think that the biggest problem here is the lack of speed in getting things accomplished IG.

Ask any of the players if they want to take down the Montezzi or even Sheriff Azzam, or before them the Golden Mercenaries, the Ledskirs, the Tigereyes, and the majority will say yes, ... then think how on Faerun can I do that! It is always cool to bring down the biggest baddest dudes, whether they be good or evil, on the server. Willingness to do something and the figuring out a way to make it happen without dying are two different things.

Just look at the increasing line of piked bodies and heads and any other possible body parts that they might start putting up, you cannot say that people haven't tried to do anything.

As you said, keep working IG but do not expect a plan to be ready yet unless you hope to see more piked folk. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

I think there is an easy way around the issue of illiterate characters, while keeping it IC.

Yes, all of the back story and knowledge about Sanctuary and the surrounding areas is written on the boards or found within in game books. So, as an OOC player read it all to get the backstory and a basic understanding of how things work.

Then IC if your character is literate, assume he has read all the information.

If, IC, your character cannot read, then assume that this character has learned this information from talking to NPCs on the streets. It is an engine limitation that every NPC on the screen cannot chat with your character, so just assume that your character has spoken with some NPCs and recieved the info found in the books.

That is how I work it anyways, just a suggestion.

I think the repeated clamors of "check it out IC" may be a little harsh for the OP. Obviously he has been trying to figure these things out IC, and may not be having much luck. The responses "not to look at things in terms of good and evil" are also common fallacies that are offered up in response to posts like this.

The truth of the matter, OP (I'd put your name here, but I forgot it and am too lazy to scroll back down to look for it) is that EfU is a server that allows, encourages, and focuses upon the development of compelling, distinct player-driven, DM-supported stories. These stories certainly contain elements of good vs. evil, and may appear to solely contain these elements at first blush. However, in addition to being a server that fosters compelling character stories, EfU is also very much a server of secrets; a place where hardly anything is what it appears, and twists, turns, and subtle nuances abound under most every seemingly-transparent facade.

Look at the events occurring in EfU all around you-they certainly carry the overtones of the classic good vs. evil struggles, but very few conflicts carry only that. There are also the overtones and undertones of law vs. chaos, overt vs. covert, false good vs. false evil, tyranny vs. freedom, order vs. disorder, and perhaps even false good vs. true evil. At first blush, Upper may seem to be a bastion of light and good, with its shining Watch, potent Spellguard, and (non)effective Council; Lower may seem to be a sinister, hellish lair of evil, with criminals running rampant, murders on the streets, and chaos abounding.

Yet, as Sir Howland said earlier, there is a massive, intricate web of back story behind all of the events that have led up to what you currently see before you-some of this back story years in the making. You can certainly understand a good portion of this back story by reading the various historical memorabilia scattered in-game and on the forums; however, some of it you simply need to experience and discover for yourself. If the Watch doesn't seem to be doing anything, maybe you aren't realizing what they're doing-or maybe they just don't want to be doing anything. This holds true for the Council and the Spellguard, as well. There is a vast, intricate labyrinth of secret activities and knowledge that flows beneath the gritty facade of EfU, and this is what everyone is telling you that you just have to experience to understand. Enumerating it upon the forums would spoil it for you; just realize that there is often a purpose to the seeming madness, even though it may not be apparent at the time.

In regards to the overarching conflict of good vs. evil-EfU is, again, a server where players often drive this action. This means that evil wins sometimes; the seeming triumph of evil over good and of good vs. evil seldom lasts, and often continues in cyclical patterns. Good is often the underdog against evil in this setting; relish the opportunities this provides, for it makes it all the more rewarding when you and yours do manage to attain a temporary victory over evil.

-SI

Dude, I'm gonna be honest. On this server team good is always gonna win, eventually. Team good is always the winning team. Stop whining about the montezzi's, they are most successfull evil group Iv'e seen online since Iv'e been on here. Relish it and stop hating it, because it's probably gonna end soon.

No one ever wins. Lots of Evil groups have been awesome, lots of good groups have been awesome, lots of Factions have been both. The server cycles, everything starts, and everything ends.

Believe me, Lower has had Upper stepping on their nuts many a time, and from time to time when I played a Lower, it felt hopeless and 'why bother', much like how I think you feel about the opposite.

As Ebok said, it does go both ways, depends what the flavor of the month is.

Like many have stated, Good and Evil fluctuate like your a mother.

As does the current class that everyone mixes Fighter with. We've gone from Rogue, to Barbarian, to Paladin, and currently we're on Bard. I'm waiting for the server to be swamped a bevy of Fighter/Druids.

Or ftr Brd drds!

9lives Like many have stated, Good and Evil fluctuate like your a mother.

As does the current class that everyone mixes Fighter with. We've gone from Rogue, to Barbarian, to Paladin, and currently we're on Bard. I'm waiting for the server to be swamped a bevy of Fighter/Druids.

Well since monk/druid isn't allowed, that would be the next logical choice for the powergaming minded unarmed druid master!

Monk/druid isn't allowed?

Team Neutral will own you all, monk/druids or not. This thread's lifespan seems to be nearing an end...

Aside from the Montezzi issue being a very IC thing, It makes sense in a society like Sanctuary for evil to be more prominent. The underdark is a chaotic place, home to plenty of evil races, and the citizens have all the reason in the world to be bitter, most of them being former slaves.

Also, It seems to me evil does a good job of not FDing people despite beating people down for more often. To the contrary, if an evil character gets any sort of reputation, good players are perfectly justified in FDing them, or if they are captured, they have a very good chance of being executed, which seems to balance things out plenty.

Can somebody please quote where I said anything about winning or losing? Or please quote the line where I wrote about disliking the evil aspect of the server? I would really like to see where all this aggression is coming from. Really, go back and read my OP or other posts (that I wrote) in this thread and quote these to me.

I wrote about fairness, not winning or losing or disliking anything. Here’s a question based on my original post. If goblins don’t get to run around Upper freely, why do the Motezzi brothers, Spitsworth and others get to? Plain and simple logical fairness, either the Montezzi faction should be restricted like the goblinoids or the goblinoids should be allowed free reign to go where they like also.

RIPnogarD

I wrote about fairness, not winning or losing or disliking anything. Here’s a question based on my original post. If goblins don’t get to run around Upper freely, why do the Motezzi brothers, Spitsworth and others get to? Plain and simple logical fairness, either the Montezzi faction should be restricted like the goblinoids or the goblinoids should be allowed free reign to go where they like also.

This again is a find-out-in-game. Sorry! But you should really -ask- the Watch, the PC privates or the Spellguard WHY they arent doing anything about it and letting these tyrants run freely OR another explanation perhaps that the law enforcers do not have a good description of some of these people and that some people with warrants may avoid the Watch by simply being disguised. The Watch is human and makes human-mistake, they arent there to make the game 'fair' for anyone!

As well, the law enforcers have their own motives for not acting directly in lower-sanctuary, and one of these motives is that it's simply NOT worth it for them to intervene unless it's direct threat to the citizens of Upper Sanctuary, which so far, the only people targetted are those of Lower or those trying to fight against the tyrants.

It really has nothing to do with "fairness".

Instead of quoting what you said, I'll quote what others said and you've possibly missed. This is at least the impression I got after reading your last post.

Ebok And cores right, you're particular examples for discussion are all long complicated politically minded IC actions. If you want to know, ask IC. Ask the people you expect to do something about it. Maybe You're the one to convince them to do something.

Howland In the meantime, I'd repeat that you're missing three years of incredibly complicated context (both OOC, in terms of our philosophy about being a world shaped by PCs, and also the complexities of a setting with a huge divide). So with that in mind, good luck exploring the server and its many complexities!

Starry Ice EfU is also very much a server of secrets; a place where hardly anything is what it appears, and twists, turns, and subtle nuances abound under most every seemingly-transparent facade.

Let's use a simple example here. What if, for example, the Montezzi people paid the Council, or the Spellguard, or the Watch, or possibly even all of them for not doing anything about things?

I know this is an overly simplified example, but that could be one of the reasons why goblins aren't allowed in Upper but the Montezzi people are, and I think this is the point people are trying to get through to you and you've so far failed to understand.

The justifications behind these things don't go by OOC logic most of the time, but by how things have been agreed on by roleplayed characters IG, as in by IC interaction. I think Starry Ice said it really well.

You must not give up.

You must muster a force and assault the big four.

Bonjour

I'd just like to comment and say that, as far as I'm aware, there is no "Team Good" or "Team Evil". The Watch, Spellguard, Seekers, Montezzi, and the like, do not represent abstract alignments.

Their motivations and actions are pushed by characters who, for the most part, are not dedicated to the pursuit of Good or Evil. In fact, there is only a small fraction of PCs which are even remotely dedicated to Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos. Most characters are motivated by money, power, prestige, respect, survival, or something else more realistic. Even if you had a Paladin present all the time acting as some sort of metal detector for Watchmen, you still wouldn't find the organization motivated by a pursuit of what is Good. They simply seek to pursue their goal, whatever that may entail.

I don't think that many that replied were hostile, however, as it is a topic people can be passionate about, it might come across like that in some regards. If someone really believes something, its hard sometimes to sit back and speak in a pure thoughtful matter.

Some of the comments you were think directed at you, were actually directed at a few peoples posts directly below you. When they assured you that good will always win (hahaha) or when they told you that the Montezzi will just get kill in a week and no one should care, the thread get really passive NO WAI, replies.

Lower is full of thugs, who cares if they kill each other. If someone takes over lower, we can use them! Law in lower, no matter how they have to do it, is a good thing! Goblins are monsters, not humans. This server doesn't care about IC fairness, and goblins use to be able to walk around Upper. That changed IG. etc...

Are all answers to various questions. Basically, what you have to understand is Upper is not better then the Montezzi's. Its not some safe haven of good people. Never has been, although it feels like it for some atm, since lower is a scary place to be neutral. The answers and solutions to your issues will not be given to you any better then this thread has given them. If you want a change, your only option for change is within the character you have running around on the server. What you need to understand, is that the LAW is not a force of good anywhere on our server, Law can be just as bad as anything else. I hope this helps.

The best way to look at it from my point of view is that Lower is not currently part of Sanctuary, plain and simple.

This can explain most, if not all of the "why is this allowed or not allowed in this area" conversation while not getting into IC details.

Team Neutral imo.

IC motivation IMO. Goblins and Kobolds were once allowed in Upper, but they aren't anymore. Same might happen for Montezzi's men. It's nothing to do with OOC fairness: It's to do with IC decisions and events. Dopson's post pinpoints it nicely.

Dr Dragon That's why a certain corrupt Watch dwarf hated Lowersmen!

A link to this discussion early on in this thread would've been very helpful ;)

Mostly just because it so well explains the ebb and flow of the game within a given story arc. At least IMO.

Also, as someone who has played a multitude of lower characters try looking at it this way.

1. A lot of single player RP games have you as the good guy out to save the world in a relatively lawful manner. Most players come to expect this as the status quo of how they should act. My understanding of the EfU setting is that it was specifically designed NOT to be a place were LG is the status quo. Look at it this way, you are desperate ex-slaves deep in the Underdark. The races that live around you are mainly evil, why should LG be the standard?

2. There are basically two main sections of the city were players are relatively safe from NPCs and have access to merchants / quests / gathering places. Those places are upper and lower. Upper is guarded by the Watch and Spellguard, assault someone in upper and you are likely going to be in trouble shortly. Lower has whatever -players- can put up as a team or the DM team puts together as part of a plot. In other words whenever there is not strong team lower present (and trust me when one crashes it takes a while to rebuild), lower characters are often assaulted / killed by upper characters who enter lower attack / play our the scene then return to upper with those nice watchmen.

3. Good is not destined to win. Your in the Underdark! 8)

Team Chaotic will always win. They blow up stuff when they lose.

Except when they blow themselves up.. [Looks to Sugrin]

*Shuffles feat in the fugue, waiting for Brandobaris*

Team Evil will always win, because Team Evil has brains.

Berosion Team Evil will always win, because Team Evil eats brains.

EoL.