Hopefully the DM's won't smite me for bringing it up again (*begs and pleads for mercy*), but I worked hard to find a canonical answer to the debate we were having. I spent several hours searching Ed's old postings over at Candlekeep, and all of my Realm's books for a definitive yes or no answer, and aside from the ones I found in the other thread I came up empty handed. There was no real direct yes or no answer and I was starting to wonder if I had been wrong.

So I hopped over to the Wizard's forums and asked for help searching. People only came up with what I had found, mostly, and someone decided to hop over to Candlekeep to ask Ed. He responded, and since Ed Greenwood took the time to respond I figured I should at least reference it back over here.

His response to the debate follows:

Given the way priests have been portrayed in much published Realms fiction (many fanatics, or single-minded clerics striving to survive and accomplish things in moments of crisis, even divine crises) that's an understandable view of Realms clergy to reach.

Understandable, but wrong.

There are fanatics and other individual exceptions to every statement about the religious behaviours of any group of beings, but in general we can make these general statements:

1. Successful priests in the Realms tend to be beings who are most comfortable devoting the majority of their time, efforts, and attention to one deity.

2. All intelligent, reasonably sane, old-enough-to-understand-the-basics-of-life-around-them beings in the Realms KNOW there are multiple gods, believe in those gods, and respect and worship many of those gods often, and many more deities occasionally, when they deem it appropriate.

To elaborate on this: gamers who have difficulty conceiving of how folk believe and behave in a polytheistic setting are usually those who come from a real-world monotheistic background (Christian, for example, but it could just as easily be Zoroastrian or Muslim); consciously or unconsciously, this colours their thinking.

A priest in the Realms puts "their" deity first, but would consider it "crazed" to deny or ignore the existence of other deities, often works with or actively honours other deities (particularly deities allied to their own, in alliances such as the Triad, or the close bond between Azuth and Mystra), and would probably be awed in the presence of the avatar or a manifestation of ANY deity.

The current game approach to godhood unfortunately leads some gamers to think of gods as superheroes or supervillains, that valiant PCs can readily vanquish if they just get power enough (or get lucky, or both), and not something inherently greater than mortals. The "awe" and "wonder" get lost in the rush to check an avatar's hit points so they can be slain.

Let us look at some anonymous sample priests for a moment. These holy folk will have a roster of "duty" or "expected" prayers to their primary deity (always pray to Azuth at sundown, or Lathander at sunrise, and so on). On top of that, they will be moved by their feelings, events, or commandments of their superiors to add additional "heartfelt" prayers.

They will also have moments of personal, private contemplation, during which they will usually strengthen their primary faith by reasoning things through, and by contesting dogma against the teachings or beliefs or divine utterances of other faiths, comparing and contrasting. So they compare, say, Torm’s LG law-and-order approach to the “tooth and claw” natural order of Malar, or various CG or NG or NE-based “rules” or legal systems. So a good priest knows and understands at least the basics of other faiths. They KNOW Talos has control over storms, Tymora over good fortune and Beshaba over bad, and so on.

They also know that there are two supports of worship everyone practices, all the time: reverence and appeasement. As do all other beings, they too practice both sorts of worship.

They worship “their own” god reverently, but give prayers and even offerings to other deities to ward off the displeasure or active hostility of that other deity, as daily needs arise (I, Zorsel, priest of Ilmater, have to travel by ship, so Umberlee sink not my ship, Talos send no storms against it, and I’d better pray to Tymora for good fortune, and pray to several other deities for successful navigation and voyaging, too . . . I shall of course flog myself and then dip up salt water from over the side to wash my wounds while praying to Ilmater, so as to suffer and so venerate Ilmater during the voyage).

In like manner, a devout priest of Bane will still murmur a prayer to Tymora for luck to be on his side when going into a dangerous meeting with superiors, and that is NOT considered an affront to Bane. Cursing by this deity or that is considered blasphemous only in particular contexts. It would a sin for a priest of a primarily LE faith to seek important spiritual guidance in prayers to a CG deity, yes, but not to appease that deity by a swift offering or prayer.

Remember, “faith” in the Realms does not mean “believing God exists without direct evidence.” It means knowing ALL gods exist (though some of them may actually be other gods, working through different guises or avatars; priests aregue about such things and non-priests tend to leave such debates to priests) and taking on “faith” that this mortal priest’s command or teachings or interpretation is in accordance with the god’s true wishes (or doing one’s own interpretation of dream-visions, and trusting one is right until told or shown different by the god).

There are of course opposed deities (Chauntea versus Eldath, Shar versus Sêlune) and unlikely combinations of clashing faiths, that would make worship of one deity by a priest of another highly unlikely. Common sense will identify these to any DM, but even they can be altered for a given campaign, if desired, by shifting divine alignments and portfolios. However, the published Realms tries to present a consistent “starting basis” Realms for all DMs to trust in.

That same published Realmslore - - except comments by me, here and there, down the years - - has indeed neglected “appeasement” worship, though it’s been in print since issue 54 of The DRAGON (unless my memory of what got edited out of that article is faulty) in favour of “reverent” worship.

It is also true that religious leaders, novices in the first “bloom” of their fervent desire to serve, and certain “enforcer of the faith” priests all tend to be fanatics or to cleave to “one god matters, ignore the others” views, but such attitudes rarely survive for long - - and many who APPEAR to hold them actually worship other deities in private, either silently and inwardly or in small “hedge one’s bets” ways such as a murmured name, touching a flower held sacred, pausing to enjoy a sunrise or sunset to silently honour another deity associated with that phenomenon, and so on.

The Knights of Myth Drannor once examined the body of a recently-slain Zhentarim priestess of Bane, and found that her nipples were scarred with many small burns. Employing magic to learn more, they discovered that she feared becoming too proud and tyrannical, and to guard against this would steal off alone into ruins, to lie down and secretly burn stubs of holy altar candles of Ilmater that she mounted on her own breasts, praying to both Bane and Ilmater as they burned down to gutter out.

Torm of the Knights later learned that upon her death, Bane had through visions sent a dedicated priest of Bane to an altar of Ilmater, to there make a rich and public offering in the name of the dead priestess.

I beggath. Hold off the smite! :P

So, now that we have canonical clarification do things work differently on EfU? Or are we still sticking with cannon on the issue?

Scotty Edit: I'm sorry, but I had to fix the title. That apostraphe was driving me crazy.

That was most interesting Meldread.

Isn't Ed Greenwood such a wonderful guy?

I think it makes perfect sense for priests of FR and of various faiths to at least acknowledge the other gods and the aspects those gods hold sway over.

Yeah, I thought the last bit about the Zhentarim priestess of Bane was rather good and it actually gave me several ideas for one of my characters. (Non-Cleric, but still was very helpful.)

Thanks for the research and the post Meldread, it was an interesting read. Some of it we agree with, and some of it we don't. I use the royal we here as we just got done with an IRC convocation as it were after reading Ed's info. Don't worry, no smiting. Just some disagreement with someone who I think is drawing some pretty bizarre examples out of obscurity, and which do not (atleast on EfU) constitute proper behavior for a cleric.

Absolutely do priests/cleric know of and acknowledge that other dieties exist, have power, have dominance in their respective domains. Absolutely would priests not want to piss of a God, their own or any other for that matter. Absolutely would any priest (at our level range) likely wee wee in their armor if they saw an actual avatar in all it's power and glory. Absolutely would priests know the general other religions, and if pts are in lore, some of the outside the norm and obscure ones as well.

I had a longer longer post but deleted it just to simplify things to the following:

Acknowledgement of the Gods is done by everyone.

Reverence to the Gods is done by everyone, because a god is a GOD, and you give any GOD due reverence for his power, might, and uberness.

Worship of a God (ie, active prayer, rites, rituals, etc) can be done by anyone, with exceptions. A cleric will only worship his respective diety. Any worship of any other God is/can be the start of a destruction of his faith that that one diety, and that one dogma, is supreme over others. Remember that a priest is wholly devoted in his life to furthering and supporting that dogma. I'm talking in ideals here really. Are there could be an occasion where a priest of Ilmater gets super scared in a storm and call out for Talos to spare him, sure. Likely yes. I would offer that the more devout, more faithful cleric of Ilmater would pray something like this:

"Oh Ilmater, I know that Talos is the God of Storms, and His fury is great and mighty, and I am in his realm now and beset by His power. Bless me now I pray to endure this wrath, and please Ilmater, see me safely through."

You have both acknowledged and reverenced (appeased) Talos for his power, and complied by your faith and devotion in seeking to your God-- whose dogma and views you should fully scribe too as a priest. Also if there were any other people around you, they have a positive example of what a better and more full belief in Ilmater can bring you in life. The above example fully adheres to all aspects of a polytheistic setting, -and- you have only actively worshiped Ilmater. You have really shown your faith more fully in Ilmater than the other diety in question. And, in no manner have you actively worshipped the opposing diety.

The example that Ed gives of a devout Banite priestess actively praying to Ilmater through nipple burnings is just bizarre on many levels. Bane's portfolio -is- tyrannical rule. If one of his clerics is afraid of tyranny, then she is not fully ascribing to his dogma, and is on the road to having a crisis of faith. The fact that she is praying to the enemy God of Bane is evidence of this. The fact that she secretly slid away shows the presence of shame, guilt, or both at her actions. If it was common and allowed, she would have done it in the open. The fact she hid it shows it greatly went against the norm of her faith.

That Bane would send a priestly envoy to give an offering to a member of the Triad who oppose him in all his activities and in his very being and existence is almost comical. Well, all the DMs on IRC when we discussed this part thought it was complete BS.

I could see the Ilmatari priests accepting the gift if they did infact believe anything the Banites told them about this priestess who was a true and active worshiper of Ilmater. They might go pray for her soul as well, that for her faith she be blessed to endure the Hell Bane would likely put her though for praying and activley worshipping to a God in the Triad, his enemy.

Anyways, long post after all. I will be writing up a doc on divine believers in the EfU setting this week. Hopefully it will clear up things on how we view clerics here on the server. Know also, there are two immutable rules of DnD I learned early on as a player. DM has the final word (not posted here for emphasis, just a fact in any game environment), and secondly, if you read enough canon source material you will always find conradictions to any rule.

Thanks, Beggar. I'm glad there will be something posted here for divine worship on EfU. I'm sure it will help a lot, but I would request that it also expand outward a tad (while focusing on the cleric) to also focus on the lay people as well. So a cleric knows what to expect from lay people of a community.

Like I said in the other thread, whatever the DM's say on EfU is how it works. It was just unsettling on my part because I was always under the assumption that it worked as Ed described. (Based on all the things I've read, seen and discussed with people outside of EfU.) So when it seemed there was near universal agreement that I was wrong I was taken aback a bit.

Oh, also I would suggest a section of the document encompass worshiping allies of your deity. Specificly the Triad, Elven, Mulhorandi Pantheon, etc. Focus on the contrasts between a tight and loose pantheon and how it should work.

I must admit that this was something that i mulled over myself when i was running a PNP campaign for Forgotten Realms... I think that i came to a diffrent conclusion than the EFU DM team as i felt that as long as the Gods where not Opposed or of a similar portfolio having even a cleric praying to them for protection from a specific domain would not have violated his faith nor proved that he was having a crisis.

Each to there own though and if that is how the dm's have ruled here i will have to abide by it, I can see Ed's point in the example in a polytheistic setting as i beleive it was common in Greece for priests of other gods to pray not only to thier diety but to the others to in certain circumstances, an example would be a Priest of Artemis making a prayer and a sacrafice to Posidein when about to embark on a journey by sea.

What Ed Greenwood did here was explain how a "real world" polytheistic religion works.

Some of his examples are, frankly, disturbing on many, many, many levels--but it all makes sense.

Bane knows the Triad is in direct opposition to him and wishes to destroy him. He also knows, they are a Triad that really exists.

Now, if Winston Churchill could send envoys to Adolf Hitler; if Ronald Reagan could send envoys to Mikhail Gorbechov; it is purely a lack of understanding what diplomacy is that would prevent anyone from understanding why Bane would send envoys to the Triad.

The Triad is lawful, Bane is lawful--maybe Bane hopes to convince them to focus all their energy on fighting Lurue or Cyric instead. Hence an envoy.

The gods in the Realms are not pure personifications of ideals. The Avatar series made it clear they fail horribly in that regard due to their personalities. This makes Ao angry sometimes, and he has to come punish them and slap them into line. However, they are very fallible beings.

You have a priestess of Ilmater who is so terrified of Bane, so ruled by Bane, so controlled by Bane, such a slave to Bane's will--that she fears growing too arrogant in his service and so punishes herself and flogs herself in Ilmater's name.

Now, were I Bane, I'd likely find this enormously funny. One of my slaves is clearly messed up in the head, this is also a manner in which I may gain power over Ilmater and find a way to twist his portfolio of suffering into my domain. I'd even send envoys to start courting Ilmater or trying to open up dialogue so maybe he'll stop opposing my very existance and realize that my tyranny, my enslavement of mortals leads to ever greater suffering and that means Ilmater should join my cause.

Because, it could happen and has in the past that a goodly god was twisted to evil or an evil god was redeamed to good.

Everyone is welcome to their own interpretation, especially if you're running your own campaign, but and I stress this but, there are very good reasons that the developer of the game world made the statements he made.

Even if, well, the nipple thing was just bizarre.

It was. Very.

Is it commonplace for adventurers to examine the bare breasts of every body they find in the Forgotten Realms? Then use magic to find out even more information on said breasts? If so, I wasted a good deal of my youth playing Dragonlance...

Good of Ed to give such a fulsome reply...

I guess as far as Efu is concerned it would fall into a couple of extremes IMO..

The burny nipple thing with the Baneite/Ilmaterian :shock: would be SO rare that if ever allowed in Efu, you would have to be an awesome RP'er to pull it off... debateable if it was possible. This i read from Beggars post would be unacceptable (or at least EXTREMELY unlikely).

Then there is the Priest of Moradin saying a quick prayer of thanks to Berronar when his daughter is born and his wife come safely through the birth. i.e. panthoen gods who are extremely closely aligned. This I guess and read from Beggars post would be ok.

From Ed:

The Knights of Myth Drannor once examined the body of a recently-slain Zhentarim priestess of Bane

A priestess of Bane worried that she is exemplifying Bane's dogma too much and worshipping Ilmater is silly (though humanly possible if she has seen the horror of it all and is seeking to convert to another faith), and I agree Bane would view her as wrong in the head and likely laugh at her before allowing her to fall to pieces. I don't know why he would continue to grant a priestess he finds so comical and sad spells to act in his name, but hey.

From Oro:

You have a priestess of Ilmater who is so terrified of Bane, so ruled by Bane, so controlled by Bane, such a slave to Bane's will--that she fears growing too arrogant in his service and so punishes herself and flogs herself in Ilmater's name.

Again, I think Bane would also laugh at the priestess of Ilmater. I could even see Bane offering her spells for her service. I couldn't see Ilmater however continuing to grant her spells if this priestess is outright controlled and worshipping Bane.

Oro wrote:

Because, it could happen and has in the past that a goodly god was twisted to evil or an evil god was redeamed to good.

Awesome line. Sometimes I forget that the FR Gods are indeed fallible to that grand end. Thanks for that.

Great post, Oro.

I think it is important for us all to remember not to get caught up in the mechanics of D&D. Yes, good and evil exists on Toril, but for the most part they are things on a character sheet that is completely out of character. Most people - like in real life - don't walk around saying, "I'm Lawful Good and therefore must maintain that alignment." They are Lawful Good because that is simply how they know how to act, but like all things they can learn to live differently. They can be swayed, turned or bent toward other ideals.

The disagreements between the deities and such is not "Oh, she's Chaotic Evil and he's Lawful Good therefore they hate each other." It's based on very clear and defined reasons. "She supports the slaughter of innocents and the abolishment of all laws and order. He supports fair and just laws that support those too weak to support themselves." Those ideals contradict one another.

We also have to keep deific perspective in mind. These beings have insane amounts of power. Even the weakest of deities can put another deity in a world of hurt if pressed. You can think of all the deities as having lots of nuclear weapons. Sure, if deity X attacks deity Y they'll be destroyed because deity Y is much stronger, but it will weaken deity Y to the point where his other, much greater enemies will be able to kill him with ease. This forces some measures of cooperation among deities who are even diametrically opposed to one another, if not on a follower level - at least among themselves.

This means that, Umberlee isn't going to go out of her way to ensure that every follower of deity X who gets on a ship dies while sailing. She'll focus on those who do not show her appeasement. Those who curse her name and those she must send warnings too.

I think Oro hit the nail on the head with his envoy comments, comparing deity interaction with Winston Churchill's sending of envoys to Adolf Hitler. You just have to take a step back and see things from the bigger picture, outside of a single priest and outside of a single faith - to see the bigger goals and designs of the deity.

Each god, of course has their flaws. Most of the deities on Toril have been modeled after the Greek and Roman Pantheon, and the worship style of them follows the same theme and design.

Oh, and yes. Ed is a very graphic man. Did you all see the post about the paladin on the same page?

This means that a paladin who recognizes their growing feelings for someone is going to pray to their deity (often and deeply, with vigils and perhaps self-imposed penances or self-mortification, from hair shirts to floggings; I have played two NPC paladins in such circumstances, one of either human gender, and both of them secretly applied rough bark and or stinging nettles to their genitals for days, so that pain was a constant reminder of what they should be pondering, and the importance they must place in all decisions regarding their feelings of love) for guidance (are my feelings real? Am I being magically influenced? and if yes, then: Is this for the best? Is it acceptable? and if yes, then: How should I conduct myself? What should I say and do, and do you demand a price be paid on my part?)

:P That was a good post, too.

Some other things I would like to add.

I think the way the deities work on EfU should be clearly stated. Canonically speaking deities are very direct in their involvement on Toril. They don't use just priests, but also dream visions and servitors to get their points across. Most people, with few exceptions, -should- respect -any- priest or priestess regardless of faith. We are dealing with live, active deities who can, on a whim and if necessary bringeth forth the smite. I would even argue that, depending on the deities, common folk and lay people should be slightly afraid. Reputation is partly based on your actions, but also upon who you ally yourself with - and having a deity as an ally is a powerful thing.

This goes doubly true if an individual is part of a faith that demands obedience to ranking clergy. (Such as Shar - obey ranking clergy in all matters unless it could cost you your life - this is her commandment to her faithful.) When someone goes against that, they should be considering at the very least - their souls and the possible torment that it will be causing in their afterlife. Raise your hand against a priest of a deity, and you could bring yourself in a world of hurt - and not just mortal hurt, either.

I've recently witnessed people insulting a deity - not the priest - but the deity itself - out in the open. The deity in question was Bane, and it just seemed to be a completely odd and bizarre thing to do. It would be the equivalent of walking up to 50 dragons and talking down to them. You are -inviting- a deities wrath upon you by doing that. Canonically speaking, if someone was shouting that right in front of a priest who was trying to give a sermon everyone in the entire area would likely feel uneasy. They would sense the presence of Bane within the area (or one of his many servitors) and instinctively know that he is displeased and watching. Any sane individual would likely wee-wee themselves at the thought of that.

I just don't think, from my prospective deities are given enough emphasize or respect. People seem to operate from real life assumptions that deities exist based on faith and have no direct influence on the world. That is not true in the Forgotten Realms unless it's different on EfU.

Part of the role of a priest or priestess is not just the power you receive from the deity. It is not just the duties that are involved, but your place within society. You stand above the common rabble and laypeople. You are the direct voice of the divine and I believe clerics should act in that manor and non-clerics should treat and see them as such.

At the same time, it is our job as players to ensure that there are IG consequences for slights. After all, noses and legs are broken by men with clubs, not the Gods. People are very respectful of broken bones. Even as the eternal soul of a man may or may not be in jeopardy due to his respect of them, that is a matter handled after the PC is perma. Until then, it is up to them to choose to be respectful or not.

That's true, but I think there should be an IC difference between disrespecting a point of view, disrespecting a priest, and disrespecting the deity himself/herself. The first isn't all that dangerous, people can disagree with what a deity stands for and such, the second is slightly more dangerous as you are treading on thin ice, the last one - well that one is just crazy. :P

I mean, it's in ALL the god's best interests that mortals respect them and I think it would anger almost any deity to see a mortal disrespecting another deity. Even one of his/her enemies. After all if you can disrespect that deity then where does one not cross the line into disrespecting others?

Mortal worship is the source of much of the divine power the gods possess. It would be near suicidal for any deity, and a priest of any faith - especially another priest - to stand for the insulting of the gods. After all priests themselves know the power that the gods wield.

I don't know! It just makes sense to me that way. Maybe if a few people who say deity X or deity Y is <insert insult here> get smote, and everyone in Sanctuary receives a dream vision of said individual being smote and their being forged into the wall of the faithless (and their endless suffering) will curb that. :P

It just feels kinda metagamish to me, kind of like PvP in front of NPC's when no DM is around. I mean, if you are going to directly challenge a deity I can imagine said deity, in the Realms (or rather one of the deities servitors) responding in some fashion.

...and really if you are going to challenge a deity like that, the last thing you want is that deity to take notice.

"I do not fear Talos, for he is powerless to smite me with his lightning! There is no storms in the underdark! hahahahahaha!"

An earthquake swiftly follows, causing the offender to be crushed under a oddly-accurate bouldar that just happened to be disloged from the cavern's ceiling.

:twisted:

Seriously, though I think something like that should happen. The gods should bringeth the smite if challenged. :P

Hey everyone, EfU noob here,

Fascinating thread (as is most of the reading here)!

Seriously, though I think something like that should happen. The gods should bringeth the smite if challenged.

DM danger in this is you get besieged by 10 year olds logging on just so they can taunt the gods and get smitted, err.... smitten, err... anyhow, visitors see this more than once or twice in town square and they'll have a hard time taking this world seriously.

Torm of the Knights later learned that upon her death, Bane had through visions sent a dedicated priest of Bane to an altar of Ilmater, to there make a rich and public offering in the name of the dead priestess.

Good points made above. Here's my two coppers. Though perhaps discussed at length in the dm chat room, none on the boards made much note of the phrase "Bane had through visions sent..." which might be important to understanding the act.

No priest of Bane literally, physically visited the altar of Ilmater. It was a vision. Well, actually, it was "through visions." Several of them.

The questions then arise how would priests of each faction receive and interpret such visions? I'd think as the visions have their origin with Bane, they would likely serve to disturb and greatly terrify priests of Ilmater, while strengthening and inspiring the loyalty of Bane's followers.

I realize it's an old thread, but as I learn and catch up with this incredible world you've created here, I find the factional interaction and intrigue on both the divine and political levels both fascinating and frustrating. Sorting through it is proving as big a challenge as ever living long enough to actually make 4th level with one of my characters. :oops:

Thanks to everyone who makes EfU such a great place to be!

Set phasers to random babblings!

Aridfox No priest of Bane literally, physically visited the altar of Ilmater. It was a vision. Well, actually, it was "through visions." Several of them.

I'm pretty confident, on reading this, that Ed did in fact mean that a priest was literally sent, and physically did these things, because he was commanded in visions to do so by Bane.

I also think that what Ed is trying to emphasize is the puny-ness of mere mortals in the face of the might of the gods, and also the pervasive kinda of attitude in a polytheistic society. It's harder for monotheistic-thinking people to accept, "even" the priests think this way. We expect a "good" priest to be, well, dedicated-monotheistic. But there's a different spiritual reality in the realms, and especially the priests are aware of it. When you're on a boat on the open seas, you're in the FRONT YARD of UMBERLEE, WICKED DEVOURER OF MEN and BADASS SHIT-YOUR-BRITCHES BITCH, so PRAY UP PUNY MAN! Not, "Oh well um, doesn't matter, Ilmater says ignore the 20 ton kraken..." Heck no, Ilmater says he'll look the other way for a second while you pay some cheap lip service, so he can keep his high-investment cleric. Gods aren't black-and-white stupid, they know (and encourage) the awe mortals have for the gods, and "domain" means something real, after all...

In addition, I also think that the premise, "God power is based on worshippers, so worshipping X fuels the opposition," needs some fleshing out, though there is definitely truth to the concept: God-power through worship; the most "obvious" example in cultures is sacrifice, especially where blood is spilled. (Though that's not really an exact parallel.) There is an important difference between prayer A, "Glory be to Bane, He is the Almighty Tyrant, may the blood of these babies appease Him," and prayer B, "Have mercy upon our ships, Umberlee, and smiteth us not." Prayer is not equivalent to worship, and there should probably be a further distinction drawn based on this...

/2cents

Aridfox smitted, err.... smitten, err...

Smote.

Smoten. (Yeeehaw!)

We have never suggested that clerics in the Realms are monotheists - they are well aware of the power of other deities, coming into conflict with their divine servants often. While the common man is a polytheist, clerics are monolatrists. Clerics should strive to be more than common mortals - while remaining very aware that they are and always will be tiny compared to the gods.

So why fuel the fires of your patron's competition? A cleric of Ilmater isn't going to be able to sneak off and mutter a plea to Umberlee. What will those commoners think if they see/hear him? Ilmater's divine (mortal) servant doesn't have the backbone to weather a little storm! If Umberlee's going to try to throw people overboard who didn't pay homage to her, clearly that little prayer represents some amount of power to her, and once again a preacher of a Lawful Good power is empowering Chaotic Evil because their faith is lacking. Ilmater's not saying "ignore the Kraken", he's more likely saying, "be strong, and if that Kraken looks like it's going to take out the ship trying to get to you, jump overboard for the good of your shipmates". Although, a Kraken seems a bit much, unless someone actively insulted Umberlee. Beggar's "acknowledgement without supplicance" suggestion sounds like an excellent use of all that Wisdom clerics should have sunk points into, and Charisma should smooth over your pompous/arrogant preaching.

If you're only a low-level cleric with a circle or two of divine blessings under your belt, I suppose it might be alright to be a schlemiel (you're not important enough for your god to scrutinize your every act). But the ideal cleric shouldn't be content serving their god in such a limited fashion. Aim for sainthood or its equivalent! Like that awesome story of the Twice-Martyred. Ilmater didn't even have a following in Faerun at the time, and his servant defied a kingdom ruled by an opposing deity's clergy. His faith in Ilmater eased the suffering of others at great cost to himself, inspiring the first Ilmaterians of Faerun - spreading the word! Good-aligned clerics should be willing to die for their god's dogma, while evil clerics should be afraid of what happens to them in the afterlife if they fail their god's dogma. Neutral deities/clerics could go either way.

This is a part of why when gods die, their clergy is in an uncomfortable spot. They have to change their way of living (Myrkul's clerics now having to worship Kelemvor, or maybe Jergal, if they want to serve a god of the dead) and they should be terrified of the possibility of resurrection (how merciful was Bane, upon his return, to those clerics who changed their faith to a power other than Xvim, or whatever his son was called?) Or, they should actively pursue the resurrection of their dead god, spells or no. Because resurrecting your god? Major cookie points. And all these paths reflect on the strength of your faith and your ability to spread your god's dogma.

Explicitly stated or otherwise, the deities of the Realms have an agenda to destroy or assimilate certain areas of existence making up each deity's portfolio. Clerics should be trying to help them out - and to emulate their god! Except for those crazy TN gods, who don't seem to like TN clerics...

The monotheistic standpoint, but at the same time acknowledging other gods exist, Kossuth says his faith is superior to all others, this does not say "I am the only god," It is saying, "I am just better than Every other god."

Just saying, cleric's pay homage to -ONE- deity, they don't say, Umberlee, help me, just because storms etc...is umberlee's domain.

Thomas_Not_very_wise Just saying, cleric's pay homage to -ONE- deity, they don't say, Umberlee, help me, just because storms etc...is umberlee's domain.

Actually, that's exactly it. Storms are Umberlee's domain. Ilmater can't have it. Not his. Praying to Ilmater for refuge during a storm is foolish: it's Umberlee's domain, she is manifested there, being one with sea storms and the power of the ocean, and the mortal cleric is nothing in the face of such awesome and incredible power as are the gods.

In this setting, the gods have specific functions, they're not all mini-universal gods. This is accepted in the setting, and natural. For instance, you may believe that goat milk is better than bread. You may tell everyone around you it's superior. You may be the biggest goat milk fanatic in the world. But when you need to buy bread, you don't go to the goat herder and ask for it there. You go to the baker. A polytheistic belief system typically holds that while the gods are seperate, they are all part of a vital system, and each part of it is necessary, even if you like some better than others.

Even Banites want to have kids, so they'll pray to a fertility god. Even the clerics. Banites want to be healthy, so they'll pray to a god of healing when they're sick - or Talona, but they'll pray to one of those.

To summarize it: Every facet of life in the realms are governed by the appropriate god: you pray to the proper god at various stages in life, because the gods are an important influence on things such as crops, marriage, death, disease, war and so forth.

A cleric who does not pray to the appropriate gods whatsoever in urgent situations is promoting the concept that the gods are irrelevant. If it's not necessary to pray to Umberlee during a freaking storm at sea, why should anyone worship Bane, Ilmater, etc in regards to other things... at all?

What you're saying is fine in regards to the common man, and the timid/novice acolyte that isn't going to be winning any awards for most conversions to the faith.

Bane should expect his clergy to, if they're worthy/strong, be able to produce plenty of little Banites to become "good" rulers some day. I'm also unaware of any fertility gods, although I think the goblins have one. Talona, supposedly recognizing Bane as a superior, may be an acceptable deity to make the occasional prayer to for a Banite cleric.

As for bread and goat milk, if you think goat milk is so great, why are you bothering to get bread in the first place? Clearly, you're not as devoted to goat milk as you thought. You're doubting its greatness compared to bread if you still need bread. Turn to goat cheese and other goat products for food, instead. Although, the Dairy Deities probably don't worry too much about the Grainites stealing followers, not being sentient and all.

And you're right, you can't pray to Ilmater for merciful waters and calm waves, but you can pray to Ilmater for the will to endure icy rains and seasickness. To adapt Beggar's example, "Ilmater, I am about to cross paths with the violent moods of Umberlee manifest, lend me the strength to persist in my journey." You're recognizing that Umberlee is responsible for the treacherous waters and is a force to be reckoned with, but your prayers are to Ilmater.

Poor little Valkur isn't getting his seafaring love in this thread, by the way. Umberlee's not the only god when ocean travel(ers) is(are) concerned. :(

Edit: Something else to address, Earth's polytheistic religions (while being practiced) didn't have crises of the faith arising from gods stealing each others' portfolios, either through force or trickery (or getting bored and giving away their powers). To keep chipping away at the Bitch Queen, her superior Talos is encroaching on her domain, and she's desperate to avoid being subsumed. Shar is pretending to be Ibrandul (unknown to probably even other gods). Kelemvor, Mystra Mk. III (II if you don't count Mystral) and Cyric are new kids on the block. Gods make alliances (often temporary, and with gods they don't particularly like!), single out enemies that they actively oppose, and die in these conflicts. Their status as Lord/Lady of Whatever isn't guaranteed, although having devoted clergy that can recruit followers and potentially undermine rival faiths will help them. And they're far more likely to reward (in this life or the next) someone who doesn't buckle under pressure and pray to the most convenient god of the moment, but uses their Wisdom to maintain their faith regardless of the danger.

AScottBay Bane should expect his clergy to, if they're worthy/strong, be able to produce plenty of little Banites to become "good" rulers some day."

I think Chauntea is probably the main fertility goddess in the pantheon, but other than that I'm not really sure what Bane expects. I'm pretty sure his followers want to prosper, though.

AScottBay As for bread and goat milk, if you think goat milk is so great, why are you bothering to get bread in the first place?

Because there's this little thing called life, and mortals tend to like it. You can't live on milk, just like you can't survive an ocean storm by the "will to endure" if your ship is snapped in half by a hundred ton monstrosity from the depths.

The gods have real power, even if we as players can happily know otherwise. It's not milk and bread, or even just "Oh Ilmater, help me get over the queasy feeling Umberlee might cause in my poor tummy, ohnoes." No, it's more like "You will all die in this storm today, if you do not give Umberlee her respects." (Sure, perhaps you can try praying to Valkur instead. Why not cover all your bases and pray to both? A cleric who survives can generate far more prayers for Ilmater throughout his life, than a cleric who foolishly chose not to bow to the lord or lady of the domains he tried to pass through...)

People of the realm genuinely believe in the power of the gods, unlike players. Umberlee has domain over the sea. This means it is her playground, and she can kill you at her whim. Domain means, among other things, ownership. When you enter, you're in her house, so you should be polite and give lip service. The only person I can see consistently doing otherwise is one who doesn't concede the power of the gods... a ridiculous concept in FR, and a cleric of all people would be the last person to subscribe to this world view.

Some of the thinking here is kinda like saying, "Bill Gates would never let his employees take a taxi from an airport to his meeting, because then they'd be giving a CEO of a different company profit."

The piece we're missing in our consideration is this: having domain over something means really having power over it, wether it's a bit of land or a concept, in this case. That also, by implication, means the other gods without the domain don't have power in that particular area, at least not anywhere near as much influence.

For instance, Banite armies happen to need to eat so they can stay in the field. If that means a few prayers to Chauntea are needed to help squeeze out the last bit of grain, big deal. Those armies will rake in far more followers, and it's not like Bane is worried about getting at the "Fertility" portfolio any time soon, I bet.

Reporting Farmer: "Our crops are failing, the Banite armies will starve." Cleric of Bane: "Let us pray to Chauntea for bountiful harvests (and stop as soon as the last sheaf of wheat is in,) so our armies can trounce our enemies and spread the rule of Bane! Praise Bane! *to aide* Also, have this farmer flogged for failing.

On the other hand, if it's a Malarite priest praying to Nobanion, sure. That's a whippin'.

Mr. Grendel, I think you are refusing to see the distinction between average followers and clerics. Basically, if a god is giving a part of his power to a mortal, that mortal better live and die by that god's dogma. If some poor schmuck with no deep religious ties takes a sea voyage, he better ask Umberlee for mercy (or Valkur, or more likely: hope Umberlee doesn't even notice his voyage).

Anyways, BIG difference between laymen and priests. As has been said.

$0.02 -Pup

[edit] Also, I believe Bane would expect his followers to find/produce/commandeer/whatever to feed his armies, without praying to a god (Chauntea) that would probably never answer such prayers anyways. "Banites are strong! They need no help from the other pitiful gods!"

What you're saying Mr. Grendel, as has been reiterated a dozen times, is fine for the layman and even, to a certain extent, a novice clergyman. If I catch a high-level Banite cleric praying in pitiful submission to Talona after catching syphilis, instead of fearful prayer to Bane in askance of the fortitude to ride the infection out, there will be consequences. Immediate spell-failure even, if he does so publicly.

Doesn't like, Talona, serve Bane?

That's beside the point entirely! >_<

Actually, that's exactly it. Storms are Umberlee's domain. Ilmater can't have it. Not his. Praying to Ilmater for refuge during a storm is foolish:

I'll rerereiterate. There is no domain conflict here. Everyone alive knows who is incharge of what and who has more power where. Everyone knows all the Gods exist and have uber power. The cleric of Ilmater, with the faith that he can and will through his Gods power endure and or suffer through the wrath of a storm on the sea and provide a good example of his faith is paramount to him (a cleric) pushing his faith forward and being an example of it to others (ie, actually being a cleric).

Being human and fallible can that cleric be afraid, and utter a prayer to Umberlee? Sure he can. He should also expect the consequences for his actions, be that spellfailure or otherwise depending on the clerics status/past experiences and faith.

As to your Bane Chauntea example: No cleric of Bane is going to pray to Chauntea. Period. They will go down with a small army, sacrifice a field hand to two to Bane to bless the fields to feed the armies. The peasent farmers, after they leave, would then likely go to their knees in rampant supplication to Chauntea for a bountiful harvest to save their lives.

And please, don't cite Ed's example of the Banite priestess who went crazy with the candles thing. She ws crazy. It sounds like something out of one of his books to keep teenage readers enthralled and buying candles.

It may be worth pointing out, there are about five saints in the entire Forgotten Realms. Mostly of Ilmater.

So while you may wish to aim for sainthood, in the Realms the gods do not appear to expect it from their followers. They clearly will cut a great deal of slack for lesser worshippers, and while it makes sense that a god will harshly frown upon a worshipper offering prayers to an enemy god, I doubt they are concerned if those prayers are to a friendly or neutral god.

They may allow it for all kinds of reasons even to an enemy, as a peace offering, as an initial ploy before an attack. Recognize that while Bane's high priest with a 38 wisdom and a 24 intelligence may decide to sacrifice Frank the Banite for offering a prayer to Helm, Bane himself may have desired this outcome for reasons that only his 49 wisdom and 35 intelligence can understand. (Say Frank made the offering as part of a ploy to show Helm the power and aid that could be his if he embraced evil and service to Bane, plus the added perk that Frank's sacrifice gave a huge boost to Bane through a blood offering. Yet, none of the mortals involved even recognized that Bane was courting Helm's service.)

I'd hope this translates into game terms for people to show some consideration before dishing out spell failure to a priest who recognizes that being a god in the Forgotten Realms is not as simple as "My god before all others" but is in fact best viewed as a case of very, very complex parliamentary politics on a cosmic level where all moves may have secret motives. If the gods are easy to predict, they lose some of their interest.

By no means do I want to come across as that spell failure will occur at any instance of prayer. It will not. Most likely I will start following the priest more closely, and if that cleric is played as loosing his faith then spellfailure may be applied.

What I have done in the past is sent tells to the player of *as you pray in the evening, you feel a bit more distant from (insert diety here) than perhaps you have in the past*, or somehting like that. Or, In one instance where it was outright blatant disregard for the dogma and loss of faith type stuff, I instigated spell failure intermitently over the course of the adventure and allowed the character the chance to "repent" for his "sin". (a player with a goodly aligned cleric led a prayer to an opposing diety to try and stop something, getting all the players to pray along with him to the evil opposing diety).

I take these instances all on a person by person basis, and you are correct Oro. It is a complex situation.

Hmm, well again,

MrGrendel Some of the thinking here is kinda like saying, "Bill Gates would never let his employees take a taxi from an airport to his meeting, because then they'd be giving a CEO of a different company profit."

Regarding:

Pup Mr. Grendel, I think you are refusing to see the distinction between average followers and clerics. Basically, if a god is giving a part of his power to a mortal, that mortal better live and die by that god's dogma.

There is no conflict between following a certain god's dogma and sending prayers to the proper recipient at particular times in life, assuming it's not a diametrically opposed god. That's why the gods HAVE domains, and fight over them. Because there's a reason you pray to different gods, and they know it well.

Edit: Further, you will notice that none of the dogmas state, "Do not pray to anyone other than me."

Pup If some poor schmuck with no deep religious ties takes a sea voyage, he better ask Umberlee for mercy (or Valkur, or more likely: hope Umberlee doesn't even notice his voyage).

The assumption, "Well it's ok for laypeople but not clerics," means that deep down, people still don't "get" polytheistic settings. Their gut instinct is "praying to other gods is wrong. Ok, maybe the common people don't understand this, but clerics surely must!"

And that's wrong. Clerics would pray to other gods occasionally, precisely because, despite their devotion, they understand the polytheistic nature of the world.

The Beggar They will go down with a small army, sacrifice a field hand to two to Bane to bless the fields to feed the armies.

Any cleric worth his salt will know that Bane does not have domain over fertility, and that this is Chauntea's terrain. He'll know they are wasting their time, and the cleric would be the last person to pray to Bane to "bless fields." But I get where you're coming from: Most likely, the cleric would be like, "There's this goblin fertility god, we must offer prayers to him, not the harlot Chauntea..." instead, I'd grant that.

Pup [edit] Also, I believe Bane would expect his followers to find/produce/commandeer/whatever to feed his armies, without praying to a god (Chauntea) that would probably never answer such prayers anyways. "Banites are strong! They need no help from the other pitiful gods!"

No mortal priest in his right mind would sincerely describe the gods as pitiful or state that the gods aren't needed in the area of their domains. He will maintain that his god is the most glorious, and the domain of his god is the most important to all facets of life. He will also teach that gods are important in terms of the domain they rule over.

MrGrendel The assumption, "Well it's ok for laypeople but not clerics," means that deep down, people still don't "get" polytheistic settings. Their gut instinct is "praying to other gods is wrong. Ok, maybe the common people don't understand this, but clerics surely must!"

That's not it at all. Their gut instinct should be "Oh please, Tempus, be with us in this war!" But being a cleric, they should fight that instinctive plea and figure out how their god can help out in the upcoming war, instead. A cleric of Chauntea? Pray for the harvest to be bountiful so the soldiers have something to eat! A cleric of Velsharoon? Oh boy, there's a lot of fun there. :-D War may be the domain of Tempus, but war isn't the only thing going on in a war. Just as being attacked by a Kraken isn't the only thing going on during a Kraken attack. Clerics are not normal people. A good cleric should act like a divine messenger, keeping in mind that they're just a servant, but acting like they're larger than life.

MrGrendel And that's wrong. Clerics would pray to other gods occasionally, precisely because, despite their devotion, they understand the polytheistic nature of the world.

Banites will probably try to torture those farmhands for the location of any hidden stores of food, and if they fail, pray for the location (if any). Then they'd collect every last useful crop and salt the earth, marching onward. And if those farmers up ahead aren't more cooperative, they'll suffer the same fate. But I don't think that will be necessary.

MrGrendel There is no conflict between following a certain god's dogma and sending prayers to the proper recipient at particular times in life, assuming it's not a diametrically opposed god. That's why the gods HAVE domains, and fight over them. Because there's a reason you pray to different gods, and they know it well.

Edit: Further, you will notice that none of the dogmas state, "Do not pray to anyone other than me."

Bane's dogma Serve no one but Bane. ... Those who cross the Black Hand meet their dooms earlier and more harshly than those who worship other deities.

Cyric's dogma Death to all who oppose Cyric. Bow down before his supreme power, and yield to him the book of those that do not believe in his supremacy. Fear and obey those in authority, but slay those that are weak, of good persuasion, or false prophets. Battle against all clergy of other faiths, for they are false prophets and forces who oppose the One True Way.

MrGrendel Some of the thinking here is kinda like saying, "Bill Gates would never let his employees take a taxi from an airport to his meeting, because then they'd be giving a CEO of a different company profit."

Neutral or allied gods might be acceptable, but you're not garnering any special favor for the afterlife. Possibly opposed gods are (possibly) acceptable if you're barely a cleric in the first place. Specifically opposed gods can be considered the first tests of the young cleric's faith.

MrGrendel Because there's this little thing called life, and mortals tend to like it. You can't live on milk

Oroborus Recognize that while Bane's high priest with a 38 wisdom and a 24 intelligence may decide to sacrifice Frank the Banite for offering a prayer to Helm, Bane himself may have desired this outcome for reasons that only his 49 wisdom and 35 intelligence can understand.

AScottBay, your arguments aren't actually contradicting what I'm saying. The reason is because you're rationalizing alternate explanations based on your subconscious assumption that clerics should behave more monotheistically than the common people.

That's not it at all. Their gut instinct should be "Oh please, Tempus, be with us in this war!" But being a cleric, they should fight that instinctive plea and figure out how their god can help out in the upcoming war, instead.

You see? That's a monotheistic idea: "It must be either/or!" And that's not the case here. People pray to many gods, and do it commonly. It's pervasive. Clerics are not out to change this like little christian missionaries.

Banites will probably try to torture those farmhands for the location of any hidden stores of food, and if they fail, pray for the location (if any). Then they'd collect every last useful crop and salt the earth, marching onward. And if those farmers up ahead aren't more cooperative, they'll suffer the same fate.

We're talking about the Banite farmers, not enemy farmers. Anyway, there's nothing that says they can't cover both bases: Pray for better bounties and torture some farmers. Fun all around!

Regarding "serving" and "supreme power;" as stated, serving does not mean you can't pray to other gods when it's the appropriate situation and time to do so. And Cyric is the exception. Exceptions help us understand the rule.

Assuming that Bill Gates is a god, the typical Microsoft employee would be a lay follower. Top managers would be more like clerics, and they probably get private cars or limos (that's probably to keep those managers happy, more than to prevent a non-competitive company from getting your money, though). You know, they could probably attend that meeting online using Microsoft software, too.

This brings us back to domains. Your premise, or assumption is that Bill Gates has or can have access to all domains here... like the christian god. You can pray to him for anything. Travel, food, etc. But if Mystra and Shar say you get no magic, guess what? Tough luck. All your praying to Bane or Cyric won't matter one bit.

The last thing is that mortals in the realms don't understand all of the technicalities in the sourcebooks, people. Here's what they know: You pray to Chauntea so you don't starve. You pray to Talona because you don't want to get sick. You pray to Hoar for justice. Etc. These are considered basic facts of life. A cleric of Kelemvor thinks Big K is the shizzle. But if he needs a lot of luck to get through a tough spot, he'll pray to Tymora once or twice that day, and there's no reason to see that as wrong in this culture. Nor is there any reason to expect he'll be punished for something that isn't against the god's dogma.

To try to put it even more simply: What is the point of being a cleric of god "X" when you pray to a different god for every situation? How is that going to garner more worshipers for "X"? If divine worship was based solely on domains, then all the gods would stay basically the same, all the time. In EfU, the Moanderites managed to raise Moander by convincing lots of people to pray to him(it) to save them from the "plague", DESPITE the fact they should've prayed to Talona, or to a lesser extent, Finder Wyvernspur. Had Moander's cult not pushed his worship above all others, he would still be dead.

A cleric seeks to increase the power and glory of his own god. While it is true that many gods aren't particularly ambitious, many are. If the clergy of Bane gets enough people to pray to him for fertile crops, Chauntea could lose that domain to Bane. While the layman may not understand the "sourcebook technicalities" of divine worship, powerful clergy most certainly would.

Hmm, so it appears that folk either want the clerics to be able to do anything and still get to keep their spells or be limited to promoting their deity at all times. While we can base some real world examples, we still must consider of how we want EfU to be.

I would think that in order for a cleric to get to stay in good standing and receive spells from the their deity that in the EfU world that they should always promote their god, unless they wish to face a chance to lose some of the perks of being a cleric. I do believe it is a perk to receive spells from a god, and if you want it you had better do what you can to promote and preach, as required.

What is the point of making a hungry Banite cleric who would pray to Malar for a good hunt? Unless it is part of your character background to flirt with the danger of losing favour with your deity, life is too short for a character on EfU to waster their time with it. Are you willing for a listener to your plea to Malar to start worshiping Malar instead of Bane? In other words, why make a cleric if you don't intend to promote it at any given chance?

As for the real world, there are monotheists and polytheists and their thinking is different as many have stated. We are in the world of EfU and not in the real world where I hope most of live longer than short lives on EfU. I lived in Japan where they have Shinto rights for a newborn, a Christian style wedding with a Christian priest and a Buddhist ceremony for the dead. Ancestor worship abounds and each temple has a god or possibly gods about. I have never heard any particular monk openly praying to another god though. When people visit Kyoto, they often go to as many temples and shrines as possible and pray at each one. Perhaps when visiting they would pay their respects, but that should not entail prayer should it?

But I must say that some of those Buddhist monks at the "better" temples (only meaning those with tons of yen) spend lots of money at the Hostess bars. Wow, they know how to party.

Which reminds me, we are here to have fun aren't we :?:

Pup To try to put it even more simply: What is the point of being a cleric of god "X" when you pray to a different god for every situation? How is that going to garner more worshipers for "X"?

That's like saying, "What's the point of working for Microsoft, when you're going to pay an airplane company for travel?" You're oversimplifying things in terms of black and white to make your point; but that means your premise is flawed. I'm not going to explain how the world works, but rest assured that an employee of M$ won't think twice about giving money to airlines so he can go to company meetings, if needed.

Joe Desu Hmm, so it appears that folk either want the clerics to be able to do anything and still get to keep their spells or be limited to promoting their deity at all times.

Again, this is a classic straw man argument. If you can't properly describe your opponent's argument, all of your responses are moot, because your premise is flawed. Noone is saying they want "clerics to be able to do anything and still get to keep their spells." That's silly, and you know it.

Try again.

I lived in Japan where they have Shinto rights for a newborn, a Christian style wedding with a Christian priest and a Buddhist ceremony for the dead. Ancestor worship abounds and each temple has a god or possibly gods about. I have never heard any particular monk openly praying to another god though.

Here's the flaw in your premise: In Japan, we're talking about three different religions. You don't typically pray to gods of different religions. In a polytheistic religion, you pray to different gods within this religion. This error might arise if you automatically assume, "Different god = different religion." (As is the case with monotheistic religions.) So yes, if each god in the FR were a seperate religion, then your example makes sense. But since this is not the case, your example is not appropriate, but at least we can understand how someone could come to this conclusion. Just that it doesn't work. If you're referring to Shinto alone, it's an animistic religion.

MrGrendel Clerics are not out to change this like little christian missionaries.

MrGrendel This brings us back to domains. Your premise, or assumption is that Bill Gates has or can have access to all domains here... like the christian god. You can pray to him for anything. Travel, food, etc.

It isn't about every god being able to do everything, it's about a god's clerics, as they become more powerful, learning how to use the power they receive from their god to accomplish more goals, even if it means being less direct and having to put in more thought and work in their actions. The divine "path of least resistance" may be a very dangerous and difficult path in the material plane, but a normal person is more concerned with the task at hand (I've got a gambling debt and some folks are coming to break my legs in a week, I need to make some money Tymora/Beshaba/Waukeen!) than empowering their god and serving them in their planar homes (Torm, I've acquired a gambling debt, and I really like my legs, so I'm going to try and offer my services to the casino owner, and I hope your loyal spirit will be with me to convince him to trust my offer).

A cleric, like a specialist wizard, has limitations. A wizard will use their specialties to compensate for what they can't directly do: "I'm a conjurer; I can't cast Bull's Strength, but I can summon an Earth Elemental, which is strong like a bull," or "I'm a necromancer; I can't cast See Invisibility, but my undead guards aren't so easily fooled by such illusions (or won't suffer from the same vulnerabilities as myself." I don't see why it's so hard to accept that clerics can think in a similar manner.

MrGrendel But if Mystra and Shar say you get no magic, guess what? Tough luck. All your praying to Bane or Cyric won't matter one bit.

Mystra's history Although she still hates Cyric with a passion and views the return of Bane with burgeoning hatred, Mystra's chief antagonist is Shar.

Joe Desu Which reminds me, we are here to have fun aren't we :?:

AScottBay

MrGrendel Clerics are not out to change this like little christian missionaries.

You're right, they aren't. They shouldn't expect the same level of devotion from layfollowers that they should expect of themselves and other clerics.

Devotion does not necessarily mean monotheistic worship, except in a monotheistic definition.

AScottBay Clerics are not normal people. If the common man had to walk through a crowd of gods, he'd pray to each as he passes to get to wherever he's going as fast as possible. If a cleric had to walk through that crowd of gods, he's not trying to get through - he's trying to find the path of least resistance on his way to his god (which means, he can very clearly see that there are other gods around, too!). This final path can include neutral and allied gods if necessary, but the fewer the better, especially as you get closer to your god (gain levels) because it's easier to be noticed when you're closer, and your god will be much happier when he sees you beeline towards him rather than stop and chat it up with the gods in the way.

You're not "chatting it up," prayer to the gods is needed to make it through life well. Remember, we are talking about culture, not source book mechanics. And each god is in charge of different areas in life. A good, successful life is one in which much praying is done.

AScottBay

MrGrendel This brings us back to domains. Your premise, or assumption is that Bill Gates has or can have access to all domains here... like the christian god. You can pray to him for anything. Travel, food, etc.

Bill Gates didn't make the car, but "he" bought it and hired the driver. He didn't make your food, but he provided the money for it. You're not going to thank Toyota for making the car, you're going to thank your boss for providing transportation (you might, however, think "this is a really nice car; after I get that raise from nice Mr. Gates, I'm gonna buy me one of these"). You're not going to thank the goat herder, you're going to thank your boss for that raise, allowing you to purchase more goat milk each week (and that Toyota Avalon).

Thanking and buying are two different things. You may thank Bill Gates for the money, but you're still going to buy that airline ticket from the airline companies.

AScottBay It isn't about every god being able to do everything, it's about a god's clerics, as they become more powerful, learning how to use the power they receive from their god to accomplish more goals, even if it means being less direct and having to put in more thought and work in their actions. The divine "path of least resistance" may be a very dangerous and difficult path in the material plane, but a normal person is more concerned with the task at hand (I've got a gambling debt and some folks are coming to break my legs in a week, I need to make some money Tymora/Beshaba/Waukeen!) than empowering their god and serving them in their planar homes (Torm, I've acquired a gambling debt, and I really like my legs, so I'm going to try and offer my services to the casino owner, and I hope your loyal spirit will be with me to convince him to trust my offer).

No matter how powerful a cleric grows, he will still always be a mere mortal; a speck in the eyes of the gods. Your attitude here is that it's proper for a cleric to "pray while small but powerlevel so I can kill the end boss god. Or at least be ok ignoring the heathen enemy gods." That's a fine metagaming assumption to make, but not a realistic one for a well-played, reverent religious character in a polytheistic setting.

AScottBay A cleric, like a specialist wizard, has limitations. A wizard will use their specialties to compensate for what they can't directly do: "I'm a conjurer; I can't cast Bull's Strength, but I can summon an Earth Elemental, which is strong like a bull," or "I'm a necromancer; I can't cast See Invisibility, but my undead guards aren't so easily fooled by such illusions (or won't suffer from the same vulnerabilities as myself." I don't see why it's so hard to accept that clerics can think in a similar manner.

I don't see why they should be forced to go against the grain of their religion's premise. There are many gods, and each has their niche. Further, mortals aren't the only ones with limitations: The gods have them too. They're called domains. Hence "The God OF..." which is who prayers regarding the "OF..." are directed to.

AScottBay

MrGrendel But if Mystra and Shar say you get no magic, guess what? Tough luck. All your praying to Bane or Cyric won't matter one bit.

Mystra's history Although she still hates Cyric with a passion and views the return of Bane with burgeoning hatred, Mystra's chief antagonist is Shar.

Even clerics of gods Mystra loathes are able to cast spells; I'm pretty sure she got in trouble the last time she tried selectively witholding magic. As for the Shadow Weave, we've established that's a super-duper secret, and I'm unaware of any deals Mystra's enemies have made with Shar to use the Shadow Weave, especially since the Weave and Shadow Weave have unique mechanics when interacting (mechanics that very clearly aren't used when a Sharran cleric attempts to dispel a Mystran's spells, or vice-versa).

Mechanical details. I don't see how this affects the idea behind the argument, even if the characters in question did have access to source books.

[deleted by Pup :P ]

Seriously Pup.

This seems like it's getting a bit too personalized. Let's not make the error that an attack on your arguement is an attack against your ego. If it is, please disinvest yourself a bit. Please go back through and read all the postings. All your arguements have been addressed in one form or another, and I don't see any need to let this escalate any further. The views of the DMs here on the matter have been noted and are not likely to change.

Really. Settle down. I am getting really close to locking this.

You are absolutely right, Beggar. I was getting too invested in the discussion.

Actually, I will delete it now. When Mr. Grendel insinuated I didn't understand how the world works, I got a little miffed, and my post was more motivated by that than anything. It's not productive in any way and I apologize to you all.

:D The Pup :D

That wasn't directly at you Pup, I was more agreeing with you. But it does apply to us all.

This discussion has been going on for ages, and no new points have been brought up.

We understand the premises of polytheism as much as any other.

We accept that Faerun is a polytheistic world, and that Faerunians are by necessity polytheists.

We know the most extreme majority of Faerunians will pray to different gods according to their circumstances.

We understand that a deity's power is -directly and singularly- affected by how many prayers they receive.

We point out that unlike the standard polytheistic pantheon, the Faerunian one is comprised of a gamut of divine beings, a large number of which have ambitions to subsume others and their portfolios and that resistance is met from their enemies, and therefore, that the entire pantheon is marked not by peaceful stasis, but rather by violent and evolutionary competition and intrigue.

Therefore we add that clerics, beginning with the mid levels, should be making a greater attempt at reducing everything back to their own god, especially in public.

High level clerics should reduce everything they can back to their god, and should not pray to other gods in case of sticky situations, especially enemies of his faith.

We understand the complexity offered by gods having particular domains. We know the gods are absolute masters of their respective domains. Even so, a good cleric will simply find a way to reduce the situation or problem back to his own faith and patron. This is what separates a veteran cleric from every other person on Faerun. This is what separates him from hundreds of millions of other people.

Fzoul Chembryl will not pray to Chauntea (who isn't a fertility god) for a healthy son. He will pray to Bane for strong son with no defects, so as to serve Bane all the better. Fzoul Chembryl will not lead prayer to Tempus during times of warfare. He will pray to Bane instead, and ask for the martial fortitude to ride battle out and crush his enemies for the glory of Bane. Fzoul Chembryl will not pray to Shar if he finds himself lost in the consuming darkness of the Underdark. He will pray to Bane, and ask for the strength of will to confront the dangers of the place and reascend. Fzoul Chembryl will not pray to Talos if Zhentil Keep is wracked by earthquakes. He will pray to Bane for steadfast courage in the face of disaster so he may survive and begin a search for, then brutal public sacrifice of, the group of Stormlords likely responsible. Fzoul Chembryl will not pray to Cyric in the case his -avatar shows up with a blade in hand- at the foot of Zhentil Keep. He will stride forward brazenly, bumping shoulders with the common people who are running in the opposite direction in terror, offering a thunderous and triumphant prayer to Bane to let him know his weak enemy has arrived, and that he might descend on Zhentil Keep himself and crush the fool in divine combat. Fzoul Chembryl is a high level cleric.

Yes, I think the strength of the faith in the clerics is how you can turn random non-obvious situations and use your creativity to create a link to your faith that isn't unwise, and still makes sense as a character(and as a player!).

Fzoul Chembryl for mayor.

So just to reiterate;

In EFU, if you play a cleric and progress to high levels, we want to see you attempting to reduce various aspects of life, be they nominally under the jurisdiction of another god or not, back to your own patron. If you do this regularly, we will think you are a good cleric and will reward you.

We will frown upon mid-high level clerics offering prayer to other gods as soon as they enter situations where it might ordinarily be better to pray to the respective god who resides over the respective domain.

The -entire premise- of playing a cleric is doing this. That is, using your creativity to reorganize events and challenges such that you can connect them to your faith and worship of your patron deity, of whom you are a mortal mouthpiece and, in the case of high level clerics, a champion of.

I think this deserves a sticky, just speaking my mind, this discussion might help numerous players how to view deity's in the forgotton realms.

Yes, I'm happy with the DM position as it has been explained to me here. I just wanted to make sure clerics of Fzoul Chembryl's power were held to a very high standard, while it is graduated below that with reasonable exceptions and warnings to wayward clerics included. That makes perfect sense honestly and appears extremely well thought out.

Agree with thomas, just came across Caddies post and its a great one, a sticky for it would be good.