Basically this is a question I want everyone's input on. When a Malar cleric and a Torm cleric work together, should there be some tension? Since Torm opposes Bane, who by extentsion allied to Malar, and vice versa, malar opposing Torm.

Or should they refuse to even work tgether?

P.S: Should Malar clerics, or other nature deities, actively work toward maintaining the balance?

Clerics of any god, regardless of alignment, should have some tension. You wouldn't be a cleric of your God if you didn't believe they were the only true God.

As for clerics of Gods as different as Malar and Torm. There should definately be tension. If not outright hostility.

You wouldn't be a cleric of your God if you didn't believe they were the only true God.

I can't tell if you're using hyperbole, or if you're actually saying clerics should be monotheists. <_<

If it's the latter, thats horribly wrong.

As far as I know it's pretty common knowledge that there are multiple gods. And they are prayed to depending on the needs of the people.

Someone might pray to Umberlee for mercy before a long sea trip, or to Waukeen before embarking on a big business deal, maybe to Malar before going on a week long hunting trip. There are some gods (Like Cyric) who say regardless that they're the only one worth worshipping but, if that is what they demand then it says it in their dogma.

Always keep in mind that a cleric is someone who lives his deity's teachings, not always fanatically, but to an extent. Unless your cleric is having a profound crisis of faith, the way he acts should generally be a good example of what the deity teaches if he wants to keep his spells.

Therefore, a chaotic evil priest of Malar would live by the general code that the strong are free to take advantage of the weak, while a lawful good Tormite would believe rather strongly that it's the duty of the strong to protect those who can't defend themselves. There would be a great deal of conflict that would come from this, especially if the party were presented with an ethical crisis.

It's hard to explain what I mean, so I'll just go ahead and say, "Yes, there will definately be tension between Gods and their servants. Especially between clerics of Gods that are so vastly different, such as LG Torm and CE Malar."

Well, ignorance is bliss ^^, Mererin doesn't kow the Dogma of other faiths, :P

As I play a Cleric, here is my view point.

The god's are real. They intervene in our daily lives both directly and indirectly. They have priests which they grant divine powers to serve them. In turn for this the priest is expected to uphold the deities dogma and teachings as well as bring in new members to the faith. A cleric is a defender and evangelist, a warrior and a leader of the faith.

However, unless a deities dogma states otherwise (such as Cyrics) it is perfectly common and acceptable for a Cleric or a Paladin to give praise to more than one deity. The Forgotten Realm's are a pantheistic society. Believing in the gods is not a matter of faith - but a matter of fact. They are real. It would be common to see a Paladin of Torm tithing or giving prayers to Umberlee before setting off on a long (and especially dangerous) sea voyage. A Cleric or a Paladin will most likely not give any praise to the enemies of their faith, but outside of that things are pretty much open ended.

A Cyristist may only give praise to Cyric because that is what he demands. They may lie about their faith, but they may not actually give praise or worship to any other deity. A Sharran may give praise to other evil deities (such as Cyric) but may not give praise to good aligned deities because her dogma forbids working with such individuals unless to do business or to corrupt them. It would be perfectly common to see a Sharran visit or even ally with a follower of Waukeen for a business deal.

It is hard for a lot of people to really understand. Our modern world is mostly monotheistic and attempting to imagine individuals giving praise to multiple deities for some people is a stretch, but that is how it works in the Forgotten Realm's. There are obvious ideological conflicts, and the followers of those deities in conflict may not work together in a lot of cases. In this particular case involving a Cleric of Malar and a Cleric of Torm I do not think they'd get along very well. In part due to simple ideological conflicts, however also due to alignment - Chaotic Evil and Lawful Good rarely mix. They are diametrically opposed.

Here you go:

When a Malar cleric and a Torm cleric work together, should there be some tension?

Yes, there should be. One being good and devoted to upholding and battling down evil, the other (malarite) being evil and devoted to killing things. IMO, they would not work with each other at all due to the wide differences of faith. If they were around each other for any amount of time, likely it may erupt into a power sermon and then onto violence.

You wouldn't be a cleric of your God if you didn't believe they were the only true God.

True, to an extent. While you do understand and know (for certain) that there are other Gods out there, a cleric would certainly and fully believe that his/her God is truly what the world needs most over and above all the other Gods and their dogmas. Moreso, a cleric of a God is not going to be praying for help from another God. (Look, Tymora, I know I am your voice here on earth and stuff, but please Helm, help me guard this caravan of goods.) It doesn't work like that. Your God would likely think you are loosing faith in His/Her supremeness in dogma, and stop granting you spells.

Also, going to other clerics for spells/blessings to me is borderline. Somethings (like a Tyrran priest going to see a Talonite healer--yeah, that's not going to go over well.) would outright likely loose you your clerical powers. It this situation though, it all depends on the dieties involved and if they are in opposition.

thx for the responces, but would someone answer the P.S for me? WOuld malar clergy, or the clergy of other of others gods that directly mention nature, actively support the balance?

Clerics of nature deities do not have to uphold balance, unless stated in the dogma. And I'm pretty sure Malar doesn't give a damn about balance.

This is directly from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting:

The deities of Toril take an active interest in their world, channeling power through their clerics, druids, dangers, paladins, and other worshipers and sometimes intervening directly in the affairs of mortals. At the same time, they plot, war, intrigue, and ally among themselves, between themselves and powerful mortals, and with extra planar beings such as elemental rulers and demons. In this they resemble their mortal worshipers, for to an extent deities are defined and shaped by their worshipers, their areas of interest, and their nature - for many deities are actually mortals who have gained the divine spark. Because they lose strength if their worshiper dwindles away and is forgotten, deities task their clerics and others whom they grant divine spells with spreading their praise and doctrine, recruiting new worshipers, and keeping the faith alive. In exchange for this work and to facilitate it, deities grant divine spells.

Worship A weaponsmith might take Gond as his patron deity, but also pray to Tempus, Lord of Battles, before attempting to forge a fine sword. During a difficult forging or when striving to make a blade lucky for wielders, the same smith prays to Tymora. A weapon forged for guardians would involve prayers and offerings to Helm. A weapon to be wielded for justice (an executioner's blade, perhaps) would be dedicated to Tyr.

Most people of Toril worship more than one deity on a daily basis, even if they dedicate their lives to one patron deity. Some folk of Faerun believe deities are akin to awesomely powerful mortals and are therefore prone to foibles, tempers, and the haste, mistakes, and emotions of mortals. Others see them as beyond mortal flaws or mortal comprehension. Overlaid on these extremes are beliefs as to whether deities like to intervene in mortal affairs daily, at crucial junctures, on whims, or to further mysterious or stated aims - or whether they remain aloof, influencing mortals only in subtle, hidden ways or through dream visions or cryptic auguries. With these widely varying views come a correspondingly wide range in practices of worship.

With that said, many folk make offerings both to deities they revere and appeasement offerings to deities of markedly different alignment and interests from their own to ward off holy vengefulness, spite, and divine whim. The simplest offering to a deity is to toss a few coins into a temple bowl or make another suitable offering (blood to tempus or Malar, for example, or particular sacred for token objects to most other deities) while a plea is murmured. The formalization of this practice is the payment of a set temple fee to clergy of the deity to be appeased, who either provide the prayer with a short prayer to be performed to an auspicious later time or perform a rote prayer for the payer.

Patron Deities The deities of Faerun are deeply enmeshed in the functioning of the world's magical ecology and the lives of mortals. Characters of Toril nearly always have a patron deity. Everyone in Faerun knows that those who die without having a patron deity to send a servant to collect them from the Fugue Plane at their death spend eternity writhing in the Wall of the Faithless or disappear into the hells of the devils or infernos of the demons.

Yes, Meldread, this is true. But the post is specifically about clerics. Clerics are an exception to what you've stated above (with possible exceptions again amongst Triad members).

The job of a cleric is to reduce everything in life back to their deity and his or her dogma, and show how their god is more suitable in every respect than any other god, thereby setting the stage for conversion.

For example a Tormtar cleric will not openly pray to Helm while on guard duty for a caravan. He will publically praise Torm instead and pray to him that everyone remain steadfast in their duty to protect the innocent from the vile.

Malar does in fact support the balance. Read his dogma.

From Faiths and Pantheons:

Survival of the fittest and the winnowing of the weak are Malar's legacy. A brutal, bloody death or kill has great meaning. The crux of life is the challenge between the hunter and the prey, the determination of who lives or dies. View every important task as a hunt. Remain ever alert and alive. Walk the wilderness without trepidation, and show no fear in the hunt. Savagery and strong emotions defeat reason and careful thought in all things. Taste the blood of those you slay, and never kill from a distance. Work against those who cut back the forest and who kill beasts solely because they are dangerous. Slay not the young, the pregnant, or deepspawn so that prey will remain plentiful.

Yes, that is true Caddies but I don't think a Tormite would claim dominion over Waukeen's realm of merchants, wealth, and trading nor Umberlee's realm of oceans, currents, waves and sea winds. As such it is perfectly reasonable to imagine a Tormite tossing a few coins to a follower of Waukeen to put in a few words with their deity. They are so different in what they stand for that they do not come into conflict.

If this were not the case, there would be endless conflict between clerics of every deity. It could get so bad that they would kill each other on site, especially if they were extremely zealous in their beliefs. Of course, we know this doesn't happen and that even the deities themselves ally with one another from time to time. Shar and Cyric have an uneasy alliance at the moment, I believe.

ALTHOUGH! I do think, since the main question has been answered it could be interesting to throw a wrench into the debate. Normally speaking deities in different pantheons do not come into conflict. The reason for this is often due to cultural, racial and geographical differences. For example, the Mulhorandi Deities are primarily worshiped in Mulhorand and Unther.

Yet here in Sanctuary things are quite different. Geographical boundaries disappear as so many people find themselves co-inhabiting the same small isolated space. Racial and cultural divisions begin to crumble as new generations are born in Sanctuary and are exposed to its unique culture.

How would a follower of Tempus feel about Anhur spreading his faith in Sanctuary? Certainly, even members of pantheons that are divided by race may see some cross over. It is perfectly conceivable for an elf born in Sanctuary to worship a human deity or vice versa. It could even be possible that said elf has turned to a dwarven deity - never knowing the lands above - and finding solace in a dwarven deities teachings. More likely, though I could see more and more individuals converting to human deities and leaving behind their racial deities.

I'm actually surprised Ibrandul doesn't have more followers than he does. I would think most people living in Sanctuary would take an active interest in his worship, considering the fact that he is pretty much the deity of the Underdark. Considering that Sanctuary is always standing just on the edge of the abyss, tossing a few coins at Ibrandul (who is known to be friendly toward Adventurers, Scouts and other individuals who live in the Underdark) should be much more common.

Malar -can- support the balance. But that can also be taken to an extreme. And that's what Malar is. Extreme. To the max.

As for Torm clerics and Malar clerics, I resort to the old adage. Depends on the situation. For the most part, they're probably hostile towards one another. But there are exceptions, of course.

I'd say, your character, regardless of being a cleric, should react as he would react, given the knowledge he has. That means, instead of just disliking those of the Tormish faith on principle of them being Tormish, have your character find out what the Torm faith is about, and determine if he thinks those values are worth respecting, or not.

It comes to the same thing, but instead of saying "I hate this guy because he's a Tormtar" you can say "I hate this guy because he protects those who should be learning to protect themselves."

Of course, the former is perfectly fine if your character would be the petty sort who -would- disdain someone merely on a prejudice.

As such it is perfectly reasonable to imagine a Tormite tossing a few coins to a follower of Waukeen to put in a few words with their deity.

For a Tormite non-cleric? Yes, absolutely. It's a multitheistic environment.

For any other cleric to seek out blessings from another God or a cleric of another God is an indication that you do not trust in the powers of your own diety any longer to take care of you, or the problem at hand. That is a very real indication that your faith is waning, and may result in your God not trusting you to be their mouthpiece on Toril. This doesn't mean you can't work with other clerics, though relations would likely be strained. Why would you want another cleric to edge in on your territory, and try to convert the people you are trying to convert? What?! He cast cure serious and saved his life...and is now preaching about how great Waukeen is! I've got to stop that...I'll show them a -real- miracle.

Again, clerics are different in that they fully believe that their God, while not the only God in existance, has THE most important dogma for the world and that that God IS the power that needs to be most represented. This is basically a case of all the clerics really and truly believing that "My God is better than your God."

There are other things that a cleric -must- do, RP wise, in order to be a cleric. One is preach and teach about their God and the dogma, the other is to actively promote the dogma in life. (ie, teach it and live it) These activities define what a cleric is at it's core, and though perhaps performed in different ways for different dieties. (Cyric, Mask, Shar--clerics are not exempted from these.)

Beggar-

We agree and dissagree.

There are other things that a cleric -must- do, RP wise, in order to be a cleric. One is preach and teach about their God and the dogma, the other is to actively promote the dogma in life. (ie, teach it and live it) These activities define what a cleric is at it's core, and though perhaps performed in different ways for different dieties. (Cyric, Mask, Shar--clerics are not exempted from these.)

With this, I absolutely agree to the highest possible extent. Any Cleric who does not do these things is not serving their deity. In fact, I would stretch this beyond even a cleric to encompass other divine magic users. The god's don't grant magic to individuals for nothing in return. There is always a price to pay, and that price is service to the deity granting the powers, and bringing others into that deity's faith.

For any other cleric to seek out blessings from another God or a cleric of another God is an indication that you do not trust in the powers of your own diety any longer to take care of you, or the problem at hand.

That does not translate into a crisis of faith. That doesn't mean that suddenly the Cleric is wavering in any way. It simply means that the cleric is acknowledging other deities exist and have power in Toril. Torm can't save you while on the ocean but Umberlee can. Giving a token offering to Umberlee can ensure that she doesn't send a massive wave to crush you and your ship, drowning everyone onboard.

There are exceptions to this, of course, such as Bane and Cyric. Their dogmas clearly state that they are the only deities worthy of worship. Worshiping another deity would be considered a sin in those faiths, but it is not always so in others. Of course, there are also those who take things to an extreme, refusing to give worship to any other deity but their patron however, they are exceedingly rare and have often developed heretical beliefs about their own faith.

This doesn't mean you can't work with other clerics, though relations would likely be strained. Why would you want another cleric to edge in on your territory, and try to convert the people you are trying to convert? What?! He cast cure serious and saved his life...and is now preaching about how great Waukeen is! I've got to stop that...I'll show them a -real- miracle.

Certainly a Cleric would feel threatened to some degree if another priest is trying to convert people right in front of him. As long as their general beliefs are not directly opposed though, at worst, it would be considered rather rude. However, that doesn't mean that every cleric is out there playing a game of "my deity is better and bigger than yours" contest. However, even in this case there are exceptions.

Let's step away from the Faerunian Pantheon, because they are loosely aligned and more egomaniacal than deities of other pantheons. Let's look at the Elvish Pantheon instead.

The Elven deities are bound together in a tight pantheon, with a clear defined ruler - Corellon Larethian. An Elven Cleric of Labelas Enoreth, while primarily praising him as his patron deity, would still offer - perhaps even frequently offer - praise to other Elven deities such as Corellon. It would be unnatural for them to do anything else. This may even be truer for pantheons such as the Mulhorandi that are smaller and perhaps even tighter than the Elven Pantheon. Horus-Re is the undisputed ruler of that pantheon and is likely given praise by every single worshiper of every other god (with two exceptions) of the Mulhorandi pantheon. I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that a Cleric of Isis is still offering prayers, perhaps even frequently to one or more (perhaps the entire) Mulhorandi Pantheon, and specifically Horus-Re.

This is less true for the Faerunian Pantheon because they are a loose pantheon. However, unless otherwise stated and where common sense applies (something any Cleric should have an abundance of) they are still offering prayers to more than one deity. Perhaps not as frequently as in a tight pantheon, and much more likely to be less earnest than someone who prays to the Mulhorandi Pantheon, but still common enough to be worthy of notice and mention.

You simply cannot apply monotheistic ideals ("My god will get angry at me if I pray to another god...") to the deities of Toril, unless the deity has stated clearly that praying to another deity is a sin. It is a sin for a Sharran to give praise to a good aligned deity. It is a sin for a Banite or a Cyristist to give praise to any other deity but their patron. These are exceptions, not the rule, on how faith and belief is generated on Toril. Unless there is a cannon change on EfU that I am unaware - in which case it should be clearly stated in Information for New Players - this is how it works.

Not to go offtopic, but I think a lot of Meldreads things about the elven pantheon is wrong, or at least depends on the character. Just because you're an elf doesn't mean you worship Corellon, or even respect him, if you worship another deity. It depends a lot on the character, I don't know if there are clearly defined rules on the cubic amount of prayers a cleric can offer to another deity, as long as he respects his or her own deity more.

Why would a cleric of Torm (LN, LG, or NG) offer anything to the Chaotic Evil powers of Umberlee, even lip service or coins, just because he's going on a sea voyage? That cleric should believe Torm's granted spells could help out in battles against sea monsters, or give the sailors magical endurance during a storm, or the blessings to purify water if supplies run low. A cleric should be wise enough to understand how great the spells they can get from their deity are in any situation. Valkur, another sea-god, might be seen as encroaching on Torm's "guardian" portfolio, and though good-aligned, is also chaotic. A cleric of Torm should believe that his god is more reliable than Valkur when it comes to providing protection.

Although the above is a specific example, I think that a cleric having faith only in the powers of his/her god, in any domain, is the way it should be played.

Possible exceptions might be among well-known alliances/families and "tight-knit" pantheons, like the Triad, Oghma/Denier/Milil, or certain members of the Elvish pantheons or pantheons that came into the Realms with different worship practices (Mulhorandi, I guess).

I mostly agree with Meldrean. Lets look at RL polytheistic cultures. I read the mythology and I am big on history. From the feel I get about most of it is if you were a priest of Demeter and you prayed to her to keep you safe on a sea voyage someone would tell you Demeter has no power over the sea and only Posoidon can protect us on his turf. Granted Demeter might still watch out for her servent and can protect em but I dought anyone back then would think Demeter would have a problem with the priest asking the appropriat god to help.

However everyone back then saw the gods as neither good nor evil. They thought all gods were capable of both. DnD has gods with more specific aligments. I do not believe Tormites would like people praying to Umberlee but I dont think Torm would punish the cleric inless he made a habit to pray to evil gods. Especly ones he is rivaled against.

As for the elven thing. In RL 90% or more of peoples religion is based on family and therfor face and region. Most people in one area is christian, in another they follow Islam, in another they are Hindu, in another they have no religion. In D&D 90% or more is based on race and area most dwarves follow the dwarven pantheon, elves the elven , etc.

While a large number of names, symbols and even ideas are inspired by real-world cultures, our real world doesn't have a working knowledge of magic, arcane or divine. A Greek priest wasn't going to lose his spells for praying to another god.

Polytheistic religions in our world don't, to my knowledge (and I don't claim to be an expert or even a hobbyist), pit followers against each other. The gods fought their own legendary fights or empowered a rare few mythical champions, and their mortal temples had their own purposes in, or usefulness to, society. A smooth system with clearly defined, unchanging roles.

Prayers and offerings in the Realms are a very real source of power - and life - for the gods of Toril. Clerics have a duty to their god to use some of that power to acquire more followers and create a stronger presence for that particular faith, which isn't going to happen if that cleric has to say, "Ilmater's great, but I think Waukeen can deliver better when it comes to setting up this store" (that cleric should say, instead, "Ilmater inspires me to endure the trials of business and whatever failures I might face"). The deities of Toril are not a stable pantheon lasting generations of humans; deities die, move in from other Realms, and ascend from mortals - and they like to steal each others' portfolios, taking over more domains or losing power over aspects of mortals' lives, all while the people of Faerun try to make a living for themselves and adapt to the divine conflicts altering whole kingdoms and churches.

(As a side note, many apologies to Thomas_very_wise for hijacking his thread; I hope your post topic was addressed adequately before we got off on this tangent!)

I apologize as well Thomas, let us know if anything went unanswered.

---

Sigh! I am positively certain I am correct about this cannon wise, and certainly things could be different on EfU if the DM's say differently. However, cannonly speaking here is more on religion from the Forgotten Realm's Campaign Setting source book.

Religion

The deities of Faerun are deeply enmeshed in the functioning of the world's magical ecology and the lives of mortals. Faerunian characters nearly always have a patron deity. Everyone in Faerun knows that those who die without having a patron deity to escort them to their proper judgment in the land of the dead spend eternity writhing in the Wall of the Faithless, or disappear into the hells of the devils or the infernos of the demons.

The selection of a patron deity does not mean that your character only worships or makes prayers and offerings to one deity. Faerun is a polytheistic world, not a monotheistic world. At appropriate moments, characters might worship or pay homage to nearly all the deities, even some they could not choose as patron deities. For example, lawful good sailors would never think of choosing Umberlee, the evil goddess of the ocean, as their patron, but it would be hard to find a sailor who had not sacrificed to Umberlee before at least one journey, or made promises to her during a storm. Likewise, an evil follower of Mask, the god of thieves, might make a donation to the temple of Tymora, goddess of luck, before a big heist, even though Tymora is a good goddess.

Look at the entire last paragraph. While it does not specifically say "Cleric" it still applies because if a sailor is acting in that way, giving prayers to Umberlee even if she is -not- his patron deity, then it speaks to something in Faerunian culture. If the sailor believed that his patron would become angry, that he would anger the priests of his faith, would he be offering prayers to Umberlee? No, he would not - and further any cleric worth their salt would make certain that he did penance for it if they regarded it as a sin. It would then in turn discourage such behavior and it does not seem as if such discouragement is taking place.

I -really- believe that people are looking at Faerunian religion and culture through the eyes of someone who has grown up in a monotheistic society and culture. Certainly, there are some deities - Cyric for example - who may get angry at your praying to another deity, but he is the exception and not the rule. And even in Cyric's case I would argue that it mostly applies to his priests, not his lay worshipers who are -still- likely giving praise and thanks to other deities.

Average Joe Deity is not threatened by one of their followers offering prayers to another deity. Even Cyric acknowledges the existence of the other deities - the difference is that he believes he is the only one worthy of worship.

The battle between clerics and the faiths does not take place among those who are simply offering prayers. The battle takes place among those individuals who are seeking a patron deity. This means that a Cleric's job is more than simply street evangelizing - though I'm sure in some cases it helps - but more one on one activities with the faithful or potential faithful. It requires an individual to believe that THEIR patron deity has an inordinate amount of influence on their life. It implies than an individual has a very personal connection with that deity.

One has to keep in mind that the deities must be appeased. They are real and influence events on the planet. If Umberlee is not appeased, she -will- send a massive wave to overturn your ship and ensure that the ocean drowns everyone except one person. That person will somehow magically make it back to land where it will be made clear why what happen, happened, and ensure that said individual tells others. Why? So that prayers are offered to Umberlee. This is why Umberlee is evil, and the people who live on Toril are very much aware of the presence and powers of the deities - even the direct impact on their daily lives.

A Cleric who goes around preaching that their deity is the only deity worthy of worship is going to find every other faith, good or evil, lawful or chaotic seeking to hunt and kill them.

Now, if EfU DM's all agree that I'm wrong and say it works differently on EfU that's fine. However, I do request clarification and agreement on the issue, and if this is the case my clerics will certainly be hunting down and killing other clerics. :P It will turn into a game of Highlander where there can only be one!

Each deity has a vested interest in acquiring more divine power and influence relative to other deities. Even LG ones, such as Torm or Ilmater. This is because each deity has their own specific vision of how things should work and more divine power and influence affords them a greater capacity to see that vision become reality.

A deity's divine power is -directly- linked to how many people worship that deity and send prayers. Deities choose mortals to be their mouthpieces on Toril and charge them with conversion, for stated reasons.

Therefore, a -cleric should not pray to another god-. To do so, as has been adequately explained above by The Beggar, is a rejection of the patron in favour of another god. A cleric should be absolutely 100% confident that their deity will provide for them no matter what circumstance they find themselves in. Offering prayer to another deity is tantamount to a breach in faith. This breach is made doubly worse if said prayer was offered in public where others can hear it.

Small exceptions arise in the case of especially allied faiths, such as the Triad and even perhaps the Red Knight/Uthgar/Tempus connection, where it is conceivable a cleric might praise another deity other than his patron.

You are very correct to say that we all view the FR through the lens of one accustomed to a monotheistic viewpoint, Meldread, and are also equally correct in stressing the polytheistic nature of the vast majority of Faerunians.

Clerics are a special case, though.

Meldread, you are way off on the solidity of a cleric's beliefs in the FR mythos. Not a knock on you, but I think you may have taken some things you have read way out of context.

Lay persons have typically one patron diety they align with, as is indicated by the paragraph you noted. That paragraph is a generalization about a general public. These people are not clergy. They are not the mouthpiece of a God on Toril, and they do pray to many diverse Gods both good and evil.

A cleric is a completely different animal of faith. Praying or making homage to a diety different to the one you devoted your life, faith, and efforts to is unconcionable. In your example, Torm would likely smite his cleric in some form or another for his -active support of an evil diety- by his homage or prayers, and Umberlee would laugh all the way home that Torm can't find loyal priests. Please look up how dieties maintain power, it is directly associated with how many people are actively praying and support that diety with their homage and faith. There is 0 (none, no) reason at all why a cleric of any God would pay homage or pray to another God, let alone one so diametrically opposed as in the example you gave. In the end you are supporting the opposition, as a cleric believes that all the other faiths are inferior to the one he worships and espouses. If he didn't, he wouldn't be a cleric.

I really think you are getting hung up on that generalized paragraph you keep quoting. Look at things in perspective and really think about what makes a cleric a cleric, and what it would take to be one. Really, in RL it would be like the Pope (bishop, whatever) getting up and in front of a large group of people saying something like "Oh great Vishnu, I implore you keep me safe while in India." Really, not a great thing for the Catholic faithful to hear.

Edited to add: This would not be an EfU specific ruling, but the way it is viewed canon wide.

All right, I guess I'm just having trouble understanding. Clerics are charged with leading the faith. They give out penance if necessary and the faithful are expected to obey the clergy of their faith. If what is being said is true, then why aren't Cleric's enforcing the same beliefs and standards that they personally hold onto the lay followers?

I think, if that view is correct, Cleric's would be terrified of an individual being swayed into another faith. This would lead to conflict, even among members of tight pantheons such as the Mulhorandi, the Elvish Pantheon, the Dwarven Pantheon, or allies like the Triad.

I agree that a Cleric certainly thinks their deity is the best thing since sliced bread. However, at the same time I just don't see why a follower of Waukeen would suddenly think Waukeen has any power over the ocean when she knows that's Umberlee's domain. I also don't understand why there seems to be a line of thought that a Cleric cannot pray to both deities. A token prayer or gesture given to Umberlee to plea for her mercy, and then a strong fervent prayer given to Waukeen to grant spells, to give guidance, strengthen faith and grant her servant the power to watch over the crew. I don't understand why there is an either or here - why you either have to pray to Waukeen or pray to Umberlee - but not both.

After all, a Cleric is just a mortal and more than any other mortal, a Cleric is very aware of the presence of divine beings. They know that their life can end on their whims, and appeasement of the divine, even token appeasement, is better than ignoring them entirely.

So, if things work the way that is being stated, then why isn't there an all out war between every faith? If a Cleric believes and acts as suggested, then that Cleric would see every other deity as a threat to their own faith, and as such would then in turn be forced to destroy the other faiths. Am I wrong in understanding this?

I don't understand how a cleric can reconcile the fact that 98% of Toril (the lay people) give worship to multiple deities, while they themselves would never, ever under even the most dire of circumstances, offer a prayer to another deity. Ever. If Cleric's acted this way, it would only make sense that they would attempt to impose the same belief onto lay people. Am I wrong? How does a cleric reconcile this?

I am fully aware of how deities receive some of their power through prayers, which became a cannon reality after the Time of Troubles. However, I should point out that deities also receive their power from other sources. Mystra for example is strengthened (as if someone had prayed to her) each time Weave based magic is used. Mystra's church is relatively small and those who give her prayers are mostly wizards (who are a minority in population) and yet she is one of the most powerful deities. There are other examples as well. A deities power is not completely tied to prayers alone, although prayers certainly help - and if there are not enough worshipers of a deity said deity will fade away slowly, until they die and their corpse floats in the Astral Plane. This is what happened to Amaunator.

Even so, as I am currently playing a Cleric, and if the above is the DM consensus I need to know how my Cleric would reconcile even allowing another faith - any faith - other than her own exist within Sanctuary.

Meldread I don't understand how a cleric can reconcile the fact that 98% of Toril (the lay people) give worship to multiple deities, while they themselves would never, ever under even the most dire of circumstances, offer a prayer to another deity. Ever.

I think that in the most dire of circumstances, would be the time that clerics refuse to acknowledge other Gods' powers over their own the most.

Let me be more clear. I think things are getting muddied because we're dealing with the Faerunian deities which have a very loose pantheon. So it is harder to conceptualize what I am saying here.

Let us take a look at the Orcish Pantheon to keep things simple. Now, let's say we have a cleric of Bahgtru. A deity whose own dogma states: "Loyalty to your leader is all that is required of you." A deity whose portfolio contains Loyalty and whose own leader is Gruumsh to whom he is intensely loyal to the near point of blind obedience, would then turn to his most holy of servants and say: "I'm the only deity worthy of worship. All other gods are pale imitations before me, Bahgtru."

I wonder how the priests of Gruumsh would feel? How Gruumsh himself would feel? How a priest of Gruumsh and a priest of Bahgtru could even co-inhabit the same space without coming to blows? And of course, followers of Bahgtru are more often than not very stupid, and as a result are going to turn to lay people of their tribe and tell them, "Bahgtru is the only deity worthy of worship!"

And we are not talking about the Pope giving praise to Vishnu, either. In fact, there is a very real difference between the two - the Pope denies the existence of Vishnu. No one, absolutely no one, not even the deities themselves deny the existence of other deities. They may downplay the roles, importance and powers of other deities but they do not deny their existence. To do so would threaten to undermine their own existence.

So, what I don't understand is how a cleric - of any faith - can reconcile having a literal monotheistic view of the world, even though they were raised in a polytheistic culture - before they were clerics. Where certainly as children they gave praise to more than one deity. How such a cleric who holds the view that their deity is the only deity worthy of worship, can then in turn work with any other cleric - regardless of pantheon, deific alliance or faith. As any other cleric is a direct threat.

Maybe I'm missing something, but if I am I'd like for it to be pointed out. Monotheism and polytheism do not mix.

Possible exceptions exist among the divine families/alliances where the gods might all be cool with each other.

Clerics and other divine classes live a different life than the comman man. They're the guys who undergo bizarre are possible dangerous rituals or tests of faith based on their god that no normal person would consider worth the time and pain, and adventure to spread the dogma of their god and/or improve their understanding of him/her/it (quests for a religious artifact). They want to model their life after their god to one day be more than a mere inhabitant of their god's divine home. It's the difference between someone who believes Jesus died for their sins, and the person who flagellates himself to endure pain like he did. While this is a monotheistic example, which of those two people are most likely to tolerate people of other faiths?

The cleric isn't going to flat out say, "my god's better than your neighbor's god, pray with me instead". He's going to prove by actions (miracles, blessings) and preaching what his god wants from his followers or the world - or, with someone like Bane or Umberlee, prove than if you don't offer a prayer, bad things will happen soon.

With all these clerics going around preaching their own faiths and making their own threats or acts of charity, it's not surprising that the common man, fearful of all the divine conflict around him, pays lip service and loose change to whatever power seems best suited to keeping him alive at the moment - which is why he's not suited to be a cleric unless he devotes himself to his patron and starts living a much more difficult, exciting life.

This is why the majority of deities, including most of the evil ones, aren't going to appreciate their priests masquerading as Clerics of other Gods.

Meldread

Let us take a look at the Orcish Pantheon to keep things simple. Now, let's say we have a cleric of Bahgtru. A deity whose own dogma states: "Loyalty to your leader is all that is required of you." A deity whose portfolio contains Loyalty and whose own leader is Gruumsh to whom he is intensely loyal to the near point of blind obedience, would then turn to his most holy of servants and say: "I'm the only deity worthy of worship. All other gods are pale imitations before me, Bahgtru."

I wonder how the priests of Gruumsh would feel? How Gruumsh himself would feel? How a priest of Gruumsh and a priest of Bahgtru could even co-inhabit the same space without coming to blows? And of course, followers of Bahgtru are more often than not very stupid, and as a result are going to turn to lay people of their tribe and tell them, "Bahgtru is the only deity worthy of worship!"

There are some notable exceptions. Some pantheons have clearly defined leader archetypes that the priests of the lesser deities under his/her command would never attempt to sway worship from. However, using your example, let us exchange Gruumsh for any other orcish god. In that case the priest of Bahgtru would do all in his power to ensure that the orcs of his tribe worshipped him instead of these lesser, weaker deities. He would certainly never offer prayer or even lip service to these inferior gods to his. This is the only way Baghtru might one day become strong enough to challenge Gruumsh, or vie for a better position within the pantheon.

Other exceptions would include Corellon within the elven pantheon, or the triad alliance within the major human pantheon. For the vast majority, however, the prime material plane is little more than a divine war ground. Gods desperately desire more and more worshippers and prayers, so that their power might grow. When their power grows they can pursue their own goals in a much easier way. As such, they are never going to want their own priests offering prayers or worship to any other deity, and certainly would not want them even offering lip service to opposing deities, as in effect all they are doing is strengthening their enemy.

They can obviously not expect this level of worship from every follower they acquire, as it requires a very special kind of devotion to be able to do this. But from their chosen divine servants on the prime material plane they are going to desire nothing less than unwavering devotion and service. They need to be an example of how a follower of a faith is meant to behave. They should have a single minded, dogmatic approach to the beliefs and teachings of their god. They must believe above everything else that their god will protect them and guide them, no matter the circumstances. They must believe and understand that every soul they do not bring to worship their god is another potential foot soldier and pillar of strength for an enemy deity. They must be a mortal standard around which followers can mass for guidance and assistance.

As for your priests view of other clerics -- it should be pretty clear at this point I think what the view should be. An enemy cleric is the voice of your enemy, and to silence this voice is the only way to ensure the prosperity of your deity. Even a cleric of a passive or friendly god to your own could potentially be a threat if they are allowed to work their persuasive ways on the flock of followers you have worked so hard to convert.

When I played my Yurtrus cleric, as Wiggy said, I never attempted to sway worship away from Gruumsh, being the lesser deity of the two, but I stood for Yurtrus in every way possible, even trying to design a plague (Which I never could get to through IG reasons) I even asked if the higher deity approved. The Orc panthenon is very hierachy.

P.S. LOCK THIS! If someone wishes to discuss other faiths etc....Make ya own post

Sure thing; if someone decides to pick this up in another thread, please link back here for review.