Note to self: Slyths worship shar and ALL OF THEM ARE DRUIDS! How can this be? No idea, but the underdark guide says they worship shar(And chauntea) and they are almost always druids!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Chauntera a nature diety? They could be getting their powers from that.

Also (again, may be wrong here, don't know much about the FR setting) the slyth entry from the Monster Manual 2 shows them casting Arcane spells as if they had sorceror levels, it doesn't say anything about druid levels.

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/93/9395/inappropriate-deity-for-druid-shar/index.html

Metro's logic is infallible, WotC's is not.

I think you might be taking some liberties with the source material there, Tom The Younger.

The Underdark Handbook The deep spirituality of the Slyths usually manifests itself in the worship of one of Faerun's deities. Chauntea, The Earthmother, is popular amongst Slyths with good tendencies, and Shar is the deity of choice for those with evil tendencies.

Not all Slyths worship Shar, and not all of them are Druids. However, Druid is the Slyth favoured class.

Nero24200 Chauntera

Anthee Coldburn is just being a smartass.

Congratulations, CB, on your heroic attempt at humiliating a new player.

Smite, Anthee!

Nero isn't a new player and 9lives is hardly any regular smartass.

You're just stupid, Coldburn.

Personally, I would love to see Sharran Druids. They would not be your normal druids, mind you. Your normal druid, even if they are evil, at least care about nature. Shar cares nothing for nature. She wants everything to die - and her druids would exist to hurry that along.

Her druids in the Underdark would be harmful to nature itself, slowly killing it each time they use their power. Whereas a normal druid would aid in helping things grow, a Sharran Druid would be more of a "black thumb" - aiding living things in dying.

They could run the gambit of the fanatical druids who hate city-dwellers for ruining nature, and have turned to draining the life of nature to "save" nature - by using the power they gain to kill the people they hate. (Think the Shadow Druids from the Baulder's Gate games.)

They could also be individuals who have embraced the natural darkness of the Underdark and use this power to fuel their magic - in turn draining the life around them. (Think the Defiler Magic from the Dark Sun campaign world...)

Obviously, such druids would be hated and reviled by any living thing, and especially other non-Sharran druids. In all cases, the Sharran Druid would be harmful to all living things, perhaps the most vile and dangerous thing you could possibly be...

A Druid puts nature ahead of their deity; Kossuthan, Silvanite, Talassan and Chauntean Druids all protect nature. The way they do so, however, may vary. Shar has nothing but contempt for nature, nor for life as a whole. She can not have Druids, period.

The Shadow Druids are highly fanatical Silvanite Druids, perhaps the most radical and extremist Druids around. They do not kill or defile for the sake of killing and defiling; Not in the least of all towards nature. They feel that nature should endure, above all, and employ every means they feel necessary to protect it. Threats, murder; It's all in a day's work. They may be listed as evil to their crimes towards humanity, but not ever will they willingly harm nature in any way.

If you want to play a 'corrupted' druid, play a druid that follows Moander. He's a fun deity, and alive. It's all about death and rotting.

MOander is a nature deity, period. The term "Rot to Rot" makes it so. I guess yall have good points,

Rot is merely a cycle of life from which new life blooms; A rotting corpse may feed other animals, rotting leaves and fungi produce humus for other vegetables to feed off.

Without rot, no life could bloom. In order to become, something must first perish.

But all nature deities have some sort of logic to this; Even Kossuthans may burn down a part of the forest, so new life may flourish on the fertile lands. Shar does not. She will not ever get Druids.

I think enough has been said on this topic, and enough alternate possibilities have come forth.

Coldburn, that isn't necessarily true. I've never heard of the Shadow Druids outside of the BG games, but in BGII it is clearly stated that the head of the Druid Grove is draining the life of the Grove to aid in her battle against Trademeet. She remarks upon how most would frown upon her actions but, "the earth feeds [her] power so that she might defend it."

However, you are right in the case where Druids typically put nature above their deity. I'm not sure why, exactly, because it seems counter productive to the deity-priest relationship. Their power comes from a deity, that is why they must worship a deity. Otherwise, Druids would be like Wizards and would not be required to worship a deity - their powers would come directly from nature itself. This is not the case.

Shar has nothing but contempt for nature, but that doesn't mean she can't grant her followers the ability to defile, corrupt and kill nature. She doesn't have to love it to kill it. After all, if Talona can have druids I see little reason why Ibrandul/Shar cannot. Talona isn't exactly a big nature lover herself, nor is Kossuth.

Really, I think the traditional role of Druids in D&D has been expanded and when you begin to allow non-nature focused deities such as the elemental gods and Talona, among others, have druids you've opened the door for Shar/Ibrandul. The Underdark is as "natural" as disease and poison, perhaps even more so in some respects.

Of course, I'm not disagreeing with the narrow more traditionalist view of druids. That is how most people see them, but I believe that if we are going to stick with the traditional druids the deities must be limited to: Silvanus, Ubtao, Mielikki, Umberlee, Auril, Eldath, Malar, Gwaeron Windstorm, Lurue, Nobanion, Shiallia, and Ulutiu from the Faerunian Pantheon. Those are all deities who share a personal connection with nature and/or the wilds.

I'm not sure why, exactly, because it seems counter productive to the deity-priest relationship. Their power comes from a deity, that is why they must worship a deity.

Druids aren't priests. Druids are druids. They utilize almost exclusively the natural aspects of the deity's dogma. I would look at it this way: Druids choose a deity of nature based on their way of preservance or reverence of the natural world.

Meldread Their power comes from a deity, that is why they must worship a deity. Otherwise, Druids would be like Wizards and would not be required to worship a deity - their powers would come directly from nature itself. This is not the case.

Coldburn

Meldread Their power comes from a deity, that is why they must worship a deity. Otherwise, Druids would be like Wizards and would not be required to worship a deity - their powers would come directly from nature itself. This is not the case.

Yes, it actually is the case.

Then why do they need a deity?

Again Meldread, Druids have nothing to do with the pan-political games played by the Deities; Their everyday struggle for more dominance does not affect a Druid in the least, as her primary responsability is taking care of nature. That said, it actually is their only possibily. Druids aren't Clerics. Not only don't they receive divine blessings through their patron-deities, nor do they have to live up to the deity's dogma. The choice of 'patron deity' is merely a guideline on how the Druid best thinks to serve nature.

Please, let's not try to overthrow 35 years of D&D rules because something sounds cool, when there's tons of alteratives.

Okay, lock this before I tempted to make any more dumb posts...

Meldread Shar has nothing but contempt for nature, but that doesn't mean she can't grant her followers the ability to defile, corrupt and kill nature. She doesn't have to love it to kill it. After all, if Talona can have druids I see little reason why Ibrandul/Shar cannot. Talona isn't exactly a big nature lover herself, nor is Kossuth.

Shar is different. You're right, Meldread, in that caverns and the Underdark are a portfolio that a druid might embrace (if we understand the concept "nature deity" in the broader sense), but a druid could never accept or understand that which Shar primarily represents: the primordial void that was before all life. Shar's existence predates Chauntea's and she vehemently opposed the latter's wish to bring life into the multiverse, now bitterly attempting to reverse that act and bring about a return to nothingness. Her true concerns lie over and beyond the natural world, and as such she is not and cannot ever be a nature deity, despite that she may have stolen Ibrandul's portfolio after opportunistically killing that deity.

EDIT: Since Shar continues to grant spells in Ibrandul's name without anyone knowing it, however, it's an interesting question as to whether druids worshipping Ibrandul could still exist. If I had to guess, I'd say that they were all mysteriously cut off from their source of divine magic upon Ibrandul's death -- or that they all suddenly died in the manner that all Bhaal-worshipping assassins died when Cyric killed him. There's certainly some room here for an interesting plot or a bit of hidden lore to discover, I think.

True, they aren't priests in the most literal sense, but their powers are divine and are granted by a deity. I can agree that Shar shouldn't have druids if a Druid MUST uphold nature ABOVE their deity, however what I was trying to point out is that it is disadvantageous for the deity in that situation.

If we are speaking of traditional "mainstream" druids then I would agree, also however Talona has druids... why exactly? You could perhaps twist it to make it "fit" - the same with Kossuth and the other elemental deities - but in the same way you could also twist it to allow Shar, or at the very least Ibrandul who if still alive would make a perfect candidate for an Underdark Druid deity.

In fact, if Ibrandul were still alive he would be the ideal deity for perhaps just about every druid in the Underdark. The fact that Shar has his portfolios, and is granting spells in his name (and is doing all that she can to pretend to be him) doesn't really change that fact much, does it?

I mean, really if Shar didn't hold the portfolio of the Underdark it would be a moot point, and I don't think anyone would even be giving her consideration as a druidic deity if not for that fact.

----

Coldburn-

Druids are divine spell casters, their powers are granted to them by a deity. That is why they must worship a deity. I'm all for releasing druids from that restriction and saying that they draw their power from nature itself. In this sense Chauntea, who is the embodiment of Toril in the same way Mystra is the embodiment of the Weave, is granting those divine spells.

That would make the Druid the equivalent of a divine wizard, which apparently he already is... in turn this means they lose their divine spells when they begin acting out against nature harming rather than helping.

Actually, Coldburn, the patron deity does confer the druid his or her divine spells.

Unfortunately, D&D and FR are awash with inconsistancies such as these.

Shar came into the owernship of the Cavern, Underdark, and Dungeon portfolios when she killed Ibrandul. Suddenly allowing Druids spells in her names would reveal the secret, something that she is often loath to do.

The 2e Book Faiths & Avatars makes no mention of Ibrandul ever having Druids, as a special type of Cleric, either.

Suddenly allowing Druids spells in her names would reveal the secret, something that she is often loath to do.

I've seen some PrC 'of Shar' that allowed druid as pre-requisite in a d20 book, but I don't think it's 'official'. If you Google it, you'll find a few "druid/shifter of shar" around as well.

Talona and Kossuth have no wish to "kill nature", nor do their portfolios indicate anything of the like.

I think Shar could allow druids in a special case, if that interest her.

But it would be something different, similar to the Blighter PrC, with different spells and abilities.

But how does it work if the person has no idea of whom they're receiving their spells from, or even some manner of figurehead like Ibrandul?

Coldburn Again Meldread, Druids have nothing to do with the pan-political games played by the Deities; Their everyday struggle for more dominance does not affect a Druid in the least, as her primary responsability is taking care of nature. That said, it actually is their only possibily. Druids aren't Clerics. Not only don't they receive divine blessings through their patron-deities, nor do they have to live up to the deity's dogma. The choice of 'patron deity' is merely a guideline on how the Druid best thinks to serve nature.

Please, let's not try to overthrow 35 years of D&D rules because something sounds cool, when there's tons of alteratives.

Except of course, that is not what the DnD rule books say. So again. Wrong.

Druids get their spells from nature deities and must uphold their nature dogma.

Besides Shar hates nature. She wants to destroy it; she'll never grant priests spells to 'preserve the natural world'. It hardly makes sense to do so even if she has the ability to grant those spells.

Oro is correct. In the Forgotten Realms setting, druids gain spells through a divine channel to protect nature. They do not have to uphold the God's dogma, though they may identify more with it than another druid who gains spells from an opposed God.

Thus, the Gods grant them the spells to keep nature in balance--nature being in some form in that dieties portfolio.

Edited to Add: Shar will never be a nature diety

Really, I don't see how or why most of those deities would grant divine magic to druids for so little in return. Look at the other classes that receive divine spells. Paladin's have a strong code they must uphold, as well as try and act in their deities best interests. Clerics have their deities dogma.

Rangers and Druids seem to run counter to what is beneficial for a deity. The gods have already rigged other aspects of the system, such as death, to work in their favor. The worst punishment, worse than if you worshiped a demon, is reserved for those who are faithless and false. It seems odd that a god would hand out divine powers in their name without asking for -anything- in return.

A ranger, for example, can have any deity they wish as a patron so long as the alignment of the deity and the ranger are compatible. This means Waukeen can have rangers as well as Shar.

A druid is obviously someone who has a personal link with nature. Their spells are divine. Yet some of the deities, such as Moander and Talona do not really seem to be a good representation of a nature deity. The only deities that I can see getting a real benefit out of having druids are deities that are nature-centric: Chauntea, Silvanus and Mielikki for starters. In most cases, I would think they would serve more as "priests" of those deities than clerics would.

I don't know, I hate to sound like I'm beating a dead horse but I think it is a matter of preference and taste. I also think that things are the way they are in a large part due to D&D rules being applied to the setting, rather than any internal consistent or logical reason for it to work the way it does.

This thread was about Shar as a nature deity. The reasons why that is not going to happen are rather sound and consistent, and have been stated and re-stated by various people by now. If you want to argue about some of the current nature deities not being eligible for the status of a "nature deity", that's a different issue and you should create a new thread for it.

I doubt that'd change much, though, because although it may be a stretch for a few deities to be currently listed as nature deities, they're there to give a bit more freedom of choice to druid players who otherwise would be limited to very few Underdark-appropriate nature deities. As an aside, rangers don't need to worship a nature deity in EfU much due to the same reason -- in PnP, rangers do need to have a nature deity in order to gain spells.

Really, it sounds a lot like you just need to adjust your conception of a "druid" somewhat to fit the setting.

...although it may be a stretch for a few deities to be currently listed as nature deities, they're there to give a bit more freedom of choice to druid players who otherwise would be limited to very few Underdark-appropriate nature deities. As an aside, rangers don't need to worship a nature deity in EfU much due to the same reason -- in PnP, rangers do need to have a nature deity in order to gain spells.

Really, it sounds a lot like you just need to adjust your conception of a "druid" somewhat to fit the setting.

This ties into my whole problem with druids in the setting in the first place, and loops back around to why I supported Ibrandul/Shar as a druid deity. There are not that many setting appropriate deities for druids to worship. Ibrandul, if he wasn't dead, would be a great Ranger/Druid deity (regardless if he allows druids or not in cannon).

It is a bit hard to envision a Druid of Mielikki setting up down here in Sanctuary. If anything the druid is going to suffer from serious depression and be looking for a way out. Last time I checked, there weren't any forests or forest creatures down near Sanctuary. If you are a druid of Mielikki those are two things you probably value more than your own life.

Chauntea might fit if you view her as the embodiment of Toril and you worship the planet as a whole living organism. Kind of a sort of Gaia like deity, in a way, but even then Chauntea is primarily worshiped as an agricultural deity and a deity that helps things grow. You might find a spot in protecting rothe populations and at mushroom farms, though...

Oh well, I suppose it could be interesting playing a druid that has lived in the Underdark all his/her life and has developed a set of heretical (but supported by the deity) beliefs that add to the theme of the setting. I might try that sometime in the distant future.

I'm sure there's an Earth Elemental God that makes sense to worship as well.

But really, deity is very relative to a druid, since you won't be upholding it's dogma like a priest, but focusing on balance/nature instead. The deity field is something to be filled, and probably forgotten for a druid.

To me, Shar makes sense only as a 'Blighter' PrC, something like an anti-druid. Talona or Moander as well-- the last one, I believe Lolth still gives spell to his worshippers.

A Blighter PrC doesn't exist in NWN, but I think it could be implemented with some heavy scripting, altering animal companions, class spell-like abilities and spells.

Maybe a it could be a Shifter concept as well, a druid that changes deity to Shar, if you don't mind a spell failure for that. :twisted:

Cheers, -Santista

I'm sure there's an Earth Elemental God that makes sense to worship as well.

That would be Grumbar. He isn't listed as a deity for druids on EfU. (Find the list here.) Neither is Moander, by the way but Talona is listed.

If Kossuth is a druid deity, I do agree that Grumbar should be one as well. He makes more sense for a druid living in the Underdark than Kossuth.

But really, deity is very relative to a druid, since you won't be upholding it's dogma like a priest, but focusing on balance/nature instead. The deity field is something to be filled, and probably forgotten for a druid.

That makes me cringe. :P

Seriously, if deities are not that important to Druids why not just say Druid's draw their power from nature itself (Chauntea) and give them the same rules as rangers when it comes to deity selection? Sure, some druids might take a deity that doesn't make sense (a druid of Waukeen for example)... then again I could even reason that: as a druid that follows Waukeen you use your powers to aid those who wish to harvest materials from nature for the purposes of trade. You act in such a way as to keep the balance between nature and civilization.

Seriously, though I really hate (I can't emphasize how much I hate it) the fact that a druid's deity is basically meaningless. It completely trivializes the "special-ness" of divine power from a deity. There is nothing specific required of you in return.

To me, Shar makes sense only as a 'Blighter' PrC, something like an anti-druid. Talona or Moander as well-- the last one, I believe Lolth still gives spell to his worshippers.

That was basically my take on it as well and how I suggested it. Though I thought of it more as defiler magic from the Dark Sun campaign, where your power is drawn from the land itself in such a way that is harmful, killing the land in the process. That is pretty much the only way I could envision Shar ever granting druidic powers.