Make PfE pots less common

[N/A]

While we are at it, let's make endure elements, and all other elemental warding potions less common so that casters can do more elemental damage.

We want to give people with UMD, or even just one bard level a huge advantage of course. Right?

[meow-mix]

The spells that PfAlign blocks are the spells that really take the fun out of PvP as a victim.  The ones that take the power away from the victim player, and make him stand helplessly about while he is killed.  

While I think that PfAlign is overpowered, I can't help but support the notion that players should be able to, by being prepared, prevent themselves from being easy pickings to the lamer ways of being ganked.  

NPC's don't use these potions or spells often, so an enchanter or illusionist caster still gets to be awesome in questing, whereas he actually has to THINK and be prepared himself to defeat a PvP enemy that may or may not have this protection available.  Win win situation.  End of line.

My two cents!
Meow-mix!

[Anonymous Bosch]

It's true that mind-affecting spells are brutal for a fighter to deal with.
I've been on the pain end of that a few times myself.
 
I'm not saying the pots should be removed or nerfed.
Just made less common and cheap.

[Caddies]

While I do agree that full BAB classes and multiclasses thereof have the balance of power tipped in their direction slightly on EFU (and always have thought this, even before I played a wizard!), I don't think making PfE/PfG potions is the answer.

[MrGrendel]

It's true that mind-affecting spells are brutal for a fighter to deal with.
I've been on the pain end of that a few times myself.
 
I'm not saying the pots should be removed or nerfed.
Just made less common and cheap.

I think you just un-justified your suggestion. Leave as is imo.

[Luke Danger]

PfA in general is what I see as something you often find in fantasy worlds, basic insurance. A common potion oft drunken by adventurers. PfA, Insulation, Blur, and similar tend to be standard-issue amongst PC's, and perhaps should be among some NPC's as well? I don't mean every Wild Orc, Warrior and his grandmother should be charging into battle PfG'ed, Insulated, and the works, but just having stronger foes (IE, Wild Orc Berzerkers, Warlord, Wyvern Riders) having some potions, not a redick ammount, would make some sense.

[Anonymous Bosch]

I think you just un-justified your suggestion. Leave as is imo.

That doesn't unjustify anything, as much as you might like it to. :???:
In fact, as I'm playing a character that is -more- likely to get rammed by fewer pfe pots, I'd say it strengthened it, but it's beside the point.
 
I understand that this is going to be very unpopular among players that are fond of PfE and the many advantages it brings.
 
What I'm really interested in are ways to shift the balance of power in a hypothetical 1 v 1 situation.
Gust of wind, a one round KD for a lvl 3 spell, is not really an option.
Web immunity is rife, and as Egon said, every spell other than slow (there aren't that many lvl 9s, The Impossible Dream!) that is liable to stop a rampaging fighter is faced with an impressive fort save.
 
If making more saves vs will were an option for other spells, I'd get behind that instead.

[MrGrendel]

That doesn't unjustify anything, as much as you might like it to. In fact, as I'm playing a character that is -more- likely to get rammed by fewer pfe pots, I'd say it strengthened it, but it's beside the point.

Indeed that is beside the point, which I think you missed. The question is wether your suggestion would improve the situation in general. As a defensive ability/potion, PfA is only as "unbalanced" as whatever it defends against. Spells like hold person are insanely powerful in pvp against combat types. That is why PfA is effective. It is an effective counter-measure to a set of extremely powerful abilities on the part of wizards. The "over powered" part, as much as you may hate to hear it, is all within the list of things PfA may counter, assuming the fighter even had the prescience and opportunity to chug one, and that the caster happens to be of the right alignment for the potion to do anything at all.

[Anonymous Bosch]

There's no substitute for a ganking, certainly.
The situation as it is encourages ganking.
I'm anti-ganking.

[MrGrendel]

"Hasted dispell" destroys any argument in favor of this anyway. Anti gank? Heh. More PfA imo. PfA till the cows come home, for the children. And for the anti-gank. Invis hold person = gank city.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Well, that's my point.
Players that can't cast it don't tend to go around PfA'd out the wazzoo, but they'll certainly get it down if, rather than go for the cheap kill, some RP gets done.
Be constructive and help me out with a few alternatives.
I think it's pretty clear you're not in favour of fewer PfAs by this point. ;)

[Egon the Monkey]

Dispels:
[hide="Click for the maths"]
1d20 + dispel's caster level  vs.  11 + effect's caster level
A PfX potion casts at L2.
so that's 13 vs 1d20+CL

Assuming a L7 caster
13 vs 1d20+7
Chance of success = 14/20 = 0.7
Chance of failure= 0.3
Good odds.
[/hide]
So, if you fire a pair of  Dispel Magics hasted...
Chance of fail= 0.3*0.3=0.09
Very Good odds. But then you have to wait a round and hope they don't chug another. And you just burned 2 of your l3 slots on that trick. The only logical thing seems to be to alternate dispels from yourself and HPs from a wand. Or run away. Also, Fireballs aren't that handy when you're in a crowded area or they are in your face.

The trouble comes from the fact that the counter to PfX is three times as expensive as the consumable, so far as wands go.

As a wizard or sorc, you're really stuck with run if you're alone, then ambush them from imp invis. There's little opportunity to intimidate or to retaliate when all your big anti-goon countermeasures are easily blocked.

So far as ideas go, all I can think of is "more Wiz/Sorc only easy to acquire dispel gear and Slow consumables"

[Gippy]

I would be fine for a fundamental change in how PfE blocks mind spells. It is a rather amazing spell. Actually, many of the first level spells are really amazing -- but I digress. To what spell are you referring to that it blocks? It seems that it blocks stinking cloud and hold person at the level ranges you're talking about. These are two third level spells that are of midling use in PvP. There are /many/ alternatives for you to choose from.

Fort -- Cloud of Bewilderment, Gust of Wind, Ray of Enfeeblement
Dex -- Web, Combust (it is an amazing spell)
STR -- Belgarns (This spell will knock your 20 STR opponents down 75% of the time)

In PvP the best thing you can do as a low level wizard though is to toss tanglefoot bags and dispel,and rely on others. If you get to level 7 your PvP options are opened up tremendously by polymorph, fear, and empowered combusts, not to mention PhK which is suprisingly deadly even against PCs with very high saves. I think I ran the odds on this and a hasted wizard firing three PhK's has like a 12% chance to not kill a player with 14/14 saves.

[Drakill Tannan]

I never liked the mind spell inmunity, IMO that's too strong for a level 1 spell. I would rather have them grant bonus saves against such alignment, something big, +5, +6. It would protect them pretty well, but not make them invulerable.

[MrGrendel]

I never liked the mind spell inmunity, IMO that's too strong for a level 1 spell. I would rather have them grant bonus saves against such alignment, something big, +5, +6. It would protect them pretty well, but not make them invulerable.

An all-or-nothing defense is perfectly fine against an all-or-nothing spell, which hold person effectively is.
 
Being the caster initiating with a hold person against a warrior is far more likely to guarantee you a won match (and virtually guarantees you can make a draw) than being a warrior initiating by chugging a PvA against a caster.
 
PvA does not disable the caster himself at all, and only makes certain of his abilities ineffective, and even that's making several assumptions, ie no dispell, the alignment actually matches the potion, and so on.
 
On the other hand, a mere ONE of those abilities it MIGHT prevent will completely shut down a warrior, making not only his abilities, but the chance of retreat completely impossible.
 
PfA is fine as it is.