Tough quests...

[Professor Death]

OOCly, there are times when I definitely avoid the harder quests unless a REALLY good group is forming because I don't want to run the risk of dying.  I'm not IG as often as a lot of people so every death costs me  (IMHO) a huge percentage of my time investment in play.  I've been in EFU and EFUA for 2 years now and I've had one character make it to 9th (briefly) and one make it to 8th.  And I'm not afriad to burn resources - I try not to overly metagame, either - as for harpies, for instance - my standard load out DOES happen to include a PFE - 10 foot radius.  This has of course backfired on me in a certain other quest where the usual loadout of flame weapons is wasted because every creatures in there is fire immune - not to mention I usually don't carry magic weapon spells, making it doubly hard (a waste?).  And lo and behold, I get reamed by players in tells for NOT metagaming and taking the "correct" load of spells!  Yet on any other quest they are thrilled that they get the spells in my usual load!

So, bottom line, yes, there are some scripted quests I will not do because of their difficulty - it's not worth the risk given the amount of time I am able to be IG.  If I was in more, the loss might not be so catastrophic as it could be recovered faster.

On a final note, someone earlier mentioned the notion of being the badass who gets to join and stomp little things - I would LOVE to be able to play that role.  Back in my PnP days, if only 1 or 2 players could be found, we would take their characters through a lower level module and it was fun and often still a challenge, even with the higher HP, spells, and goodies.  I would motion that for the REALLY high level people (9-11) they be allowed access to some of the lower level quests as solo or maybe with a single partner so:
a) they can have something to do
b) resupply
c) get that ass kicking feeling

Is the counter argument that it's too easy?  I dunno.  I could see two 9th level guys getting hurt in Harpies for sure, and definitely in some of the other "lower level" ones, like the wolves!  If the argument is something else, and that it takes the challenge out of it - don't do those quests then - if they are of miniscule XP payout, then they are of little interest to a lot of people other than the novelty.  It would take a LONG time to get to next level at 100 XP per quest!  Besides, if the idea of the game is to have fun, and there's a larger enough fan base of permitting this option - maybe opening a single quest to this - it could be tried AND make some folks happy.

[Drakill Tannan]

Quoted while trying to edit. Ignore me.

[ScottyB]

I just hope the risk-reward ratio has been fixed in my absence. As long as a hard quest pays off and isn't impossible, it's usually fine. That was not my personal experience.

[Gwydion]

I agree with Scotty.

Hard quests that force you to use a ton of supplies are a lot of fun, but it's a kick in the nards when you realize that you probably spent 500-1000 coin of supplies and get a cure moderate item with 10 charges and a few potions.

It gives PVPers a huge advantage on this server when they get a goldmine of coin and supplies from FDing a character, when characters that are grinding out tough quests like orcs or the new barracks quest are taking a loss.  So they don't want to do them because they know the risk far outweighs the reward.

Which btw, is a damn shame.  I LOVE the barracks quest, but it's a massive item drain unless you have a couple of Lathanderite clerics turning everything.  

And I - really - don't like the philosophy of "well, sometimes there is a really KEWL item that drops on that quest - so it is worth it."   Once in a while, only one character gets something sweet, and the others send them tells saying Wow! and such.

Here's my solution to that.  If the KEWL item doesn't drop, then a slew of coin or potions should.  I'm suggesting coin to keep it simple and equitable.  If players had more coin, they'd buy more stuff from each other and crafters could make a living off of RPing a crafter.

---

As a side note, IMO the purple crystal mine has all but destroyed the healing potion/wand market for crafters.

[9lives]

I agree with Gwydion's final point.

The Mine should, in my opinion, have a limit similar to certain lowbie quests.

[Ebok]

Okay... I'm not entirely sure how to say this, but here it goes:

I like tough quests, sometimes. And I enjoy fun quests, all the time.

Naturally, when I'm in a quantitative mode what is fun is to gain something tactical by the event, be that a greater collection of loot then what was burned, a greater bit of experience, or even those rare times when you nab a level. Facing some of the more deadly quests during these periods are non-existent for me. I simply wont do them, no matter whats the rational behind them, unless I have some manner of OoC confidence that the challenge can be overcome. (That means stocking to fight through a great wyrm and questing only when there is a effective or perhaps optimized questing party.)

Through Personal experience I have found that characters that take on challenges that they weren't built for, normally only earn negative/slim rewards, or death. Whereas, those players that are walking with the staple NWN buffs and Optimized teams have allot more fun crushing things, are far safer, and get wayyyy more items/loot/equipment out of the same quests. This discrepancy starts to seriously add up overtime.

This isn't always the case. We have allot of low to medium range quests that very fun in their own right. These quests are tailored to those groups that don't have the set optimized setup. An important distinction happens here, however, The optimized group yawn their way through it, smash rape pillage and plunder, while they stock up for those super hard quests that get their blood pumping. The non-core group gets that blood pumping experience here, on these more "spammed" quests. They are challenging (to the non-core group), they meet new people, they can trust in even a disorganized group -can- survive, and they can have some fun.

The problem comes when these non-core groups, tackle some of the upper end quests. They haven't been stocked out the wazoo like their contemporaries, and the challenge before them is sometimes impossible for this group to survive. Meta-gaming becomes almost necessary (assuming they even know), and as Kotenku explained earlier, once you start a quest, nothing sucks more then having to turn around and walk out. (except maybing a TpK, or unaviodable death)

To clarify: "Core" or "Optimized" group does have allot of variation. I'm not saying that everyone needs a Buffbot + Tank + Smasher, just that no one is worse off by having them.

[INDENT]Edit:: I have noticed something striking on the new version of this server, at least for me. I never cared what my HP was in the Underdark, you could live with minimum. Here? Some of these events are so hard that rolling minimum HP can cripple a fighter class, or just seriously ruin the whole joy of leveling at all. That never happened to me before, and I have to say its becuase of how hard this server can be at times.
[/INDENT]
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. I do enjoy role playing out the darn near fatal quests and getting the really down and dirty experience out of them, which non-core groups seem to enhance, but I definitely need to be in a more qualitative mood, and around a group of Characters that I like allot.

As a side note, IMO the purple crystal mine has all but destroyed the healing potion/wand market for crafters.

When the Upper levels bring 7-8 people this quest is awesome and doesn't end in everyone getting wands worth of healing. However, this statement is true, except I have been using the gold on other items... say arcane potions in lue of the healing market. So its just not how it used to be, not necessary worse.

[Random_White_Guy]

I'm notoriously known at sucking at questing, but I in particular -love- difficult quests. Quests where you always feel like you're going to die around every turn.

it gives a sense of accomplishment to walk out of it alive. More over though, I love difficult quests for one single reason: if I have never done it before, I am amazed. That simple.

My last character I did Orcs Two with for the first time. It was messy. We had a non-optimal party in any sense, but when we completed it, I felt -great-. It was a knock down dragout fight where I used up all my supplied, and walked out alive...until I got jumped by the very last monster we saw after beating the boss. xD

I was pissed, Sure, but it was great.

Doing a difficult quest for the first time is what EFU is all about to me. Even if you suck at questing, you can have a ton of fun if you are lucky enough to manage to get out alive.

Just like adventuring.

I like adventure, so it works well for me.

[AKMatt]

Hard quests should definitely remain in the module, but not every quest should be hard, and I definitely agree with those who say that -most- quests should have reward fitting the difficulty (not all, sometimes quests should just gut-punch you when it comes to reward).

The only quest I think is really out of balance regarding reward to difficulty is the Illithyiiri ghost quest in the 3-6 range.  It's definitely beatable, but I don't think I've gone on a run of this where the party had a better than 50% survival rate.  It also tends to not give any rewards other than experience and a few rusted helms that give +1 concentration and are only usable by elves or something like that.

I think I saw it suggested before that some quests could have two options on the placeable - one for normal and one for hardcore.  Normal mode could represent an "average" group, and be balanced for parties that maybe have one mechanically strong character, but gave unimpressive rewards in terms of loot and experience.  Hardcore mode could have something like a 95% mortality rate and give a very sizable reward.  This would allow some quests that have fun server lore and so forth to be taken by less powerful groups without getting the incredible rewards, and still provide a challenge and corresponding reward for risk-takers.  Of course, the most epic quests should always be left with only hardcore mode.

[Ebok]

Yes, the first time into and through a quest-- is almost universally awesome. Doesn't matter if everyone died, or everyone managed to survive, or various states of gray.

New quests and DM events, when there is truly adventure to be had: ROCK.

[Cruzel]

I'm divided. While I love to just chill and interact with people to learn abotu their PCs or to insult them or something, the fact is everybody just quests so much it's ridiculously hard to get them to do anything else other than quest, because truly that is the only really way for them to gain XP in the end.  So it sort of becomes a beat 'em or join 'em thing.   I usually play the kind of PC that either crushes a quest, tanks amazingly or rocks the buffs, to the point where even when I'm trying to RP, someone always comes up to me and the person I'm talking to, trying to recruit me for a quest.

I would love it if there was a way for player faction leaders (That DMs think are responsible) or just responsible players in general (Read; level 9-10 PCs who can't quest anymore, like Craddock or so.) were given a way to award  XP to their minions for completing missions and tasks.  This would encourage more player-player interactions, talking, spying, echanging information, hardcore merchanting, conflict, intrigue, all kinds of crazy stuff that would allow a player to advance without necessarily having to quest.


That said, I love a hard quest.Using all my supplies just so I can keep myself and my party alive, is super fun. Spice makes it so much greater. HOWEVER, the one biggest gripe I have with spice is the tendancy for DMs to spawn stuff  past the line of fighters fairly close to the back, which proceeds to decimate the support PCs. Or worse, even closer and perhaps right beside them. If they were sneaking types that stealthed up, that would be cool and give the back or the fighters a chance to yell "OMG SNEAKER GET IT".  As it is, I see a lot of *Spawn the creature* "Shit!" *Dead* *another dead* *maybe one or two more dead*.  

For me this is not fun, really. Especially when the monster is a bigass troll or something that should never have made it by without one of the frontliner intercepting it.   If the monster barrels through the line in an attempt to crush the back that is totally cool, but I absolutely loath when a DM spawns a non sneaking npc  right next to or behind a player like this, because it almost always kills them. (Keeping in mind, I have no issue with enemies coming from behind, as long as it makes sense. If you're in an area where re-enforcements could arrive or they could double back behind you, a party should definately be prepared for this, and can be really fun if another wave approaches from behind!)


One point I would like to stress though, is I have seen TONS of quests and spice where the only option was retreat, but players would proceed to try and die in order to get to the end was the only way to get rewarded. It should be fairly simple to add a non exploitable way to EFUQS that gives a reduced reward on some quests for 'trying', even if you fail.



TL; DR; I really think there should be a way to gain XP aside from questing as some PCs (Like merchants) Do not necessarily quest at all or very often. I don't really like seeing something in the hands of  EVERY player, but for the few the DMS think are responsible enough, it would prevent the need for these kind of PCs to be DM handholded to level up. Something like this could be easily tracked for abuse, and only given to players the DMs trust with it anyways. (High ranking DM faction players or Player faction leaders, Etc.)

Also, while I agree the death penalty should be harsh, I do not really like having to spend 1-2 days just to get back to where I was the day before. Losing levels like this can be really discouraging, while I am generally not minding the XP loss too much; I have seen so many people ragequit because they just lost the 'sweet spot' for their class and don't want to spend days relevelling only to die again and repeat.   IMO  Death should be 1/6 1/9 /1/12. (Or be capped at losing 1.5 levels)  That way, even at level 8 you are not going to drop down to level 5.  People who do not powerquest like myself, Nihm, and Naga, usually have a great deal of difficulty leveling up so while losing a couple days/hours for us is  kind of annoying because it means more quests to smash, I can imagine it is more frustrating for the ones who are not shameless powerquesters because it takes them much longer to earn it back.

[AKMatt]

@Cruzel: I am against the idea of giving players the ability to grant experience, regardless of how good they are, or how responsible.  Even if that player uses the privilege legitimately and responsibly at all times, I think it would be detrimental to the server.  People already see elitism where it doesn't exist just with things like DM loot or prominent political positions.  This system would certainly have benefits, but the downside outweighs them.

[Nas]

Ohhh the horror stories I could tell you. I agree 100% with Ebok's point that non Power Gamer charactors, ones who are not min/maxed with feats specificly taken to make them gods in PvE are at a painfull disadvantage.
 
I personal with Nas'felor need a hotkey that says "Don't worry, I allways die at lvl5". Want to know why that is? because hes a lvl 5 cleric of kelemvor whos built in a way to make him a prime cleric of kelemvor, but a pathetic PvE charactor when hes not fighting undead.
 
This means in just about any quest that has a lvl req 3-8, 75% of the creatures can kill me in 3-4 hits. Goblin archers, goblin rogues, nightriser archers, any NPC with sneak attack including cats, creatures with an average damage greater then 10 a hit, most lvl 3 or higher spells. All of these in small amounts, sometimes one one or two hits, will drop me either below 0 or dead. So far I have yet to do a Vraz quest, in the 3 times I have attempted it, and live. Same goes with the barracks in which I've died in both attempts. Of the three times I have done the observatory, I've died in two of them from mass magic missle swarms.
 
And you know what, I'll keep doing them because I enjoy Rping with the others I go with, though I may never get past lvl 5 if every time I step into a room I get plastered with my 38 hp. Shure the R/W ratio is out of wack for players trying with charactors on the lower side of the lvl requirements.Those who often have to use all of their healing to reach the boss only to have junk loot be the reward. But sometimes if the Rp is there its worth it anyways.

[erglion]

I like quests of all varieties.  Although I will sometimes shirk off a quest if I know my PC is unprepared.  Sometimes I will go anyway and it will be even more fun.  It all depends on my mood, and the luck of how things unfold.

Regardless of the difficulty, I like RP during quests.  The two are not exclusive.  This has been a bit hit-or-miss lately.

[TheImpossibleDream]

I think that some folk are looking at different ends of the extreme when they say "people who don't optimize their characters stats cannot prosper in scripted quests"

I think you'll find that most decent players who quest often are actually just good with mechanics and don't need to optimize their characters combat potential in order to complete high end quests.

Though I'm not saying their aren't a few people who will optimize to the max, because I'm sure there are plenty of clueless folk who rely on that six cha twenty str wood elf fighter with expertise and a bastard sword in order to get ahead, but I will say they are few and far between.

Back on topic, hard quests are nice, they aren't for everyone and thats good too, provides alot of variety and caters for multiple styles of play. People just need to think about whether they really, ooc'ly want to take the risk when going on one of these quests, there are no quests in the module that I feel any kind of character is obligated to go on when mentioned ic'ly.

Quests are to add to the fun that is efu, and if you feel that the consequences of a quest are too harsh for you and might disrupt your enjoyment I would think it best you avoid that particular quest, it's not like there aren't ~plenty~ of other quests to do and people to play about with!

I'm sorry in advance for terrible grammar/format I'm too sleepy to proof read it! :(

[Anonymous Bosch]

The difficulty range here is excellent.
Easy ones to sleepwalk through, difficult ones that a small, well prepared and "optimised" group can do if they play well and really difficult ones that will keep any group on their toes.
Sounds about perfect to me. :)
 
Besides, if everything was designed to be just a little bit challenging to your non-optimal parties, there would be no challenges for the much maligned optimal parties.