Tough quests...

[Howlando]

From another thread:

Going on difficult Scripted Quests is already a dismal experience to be avoided at all cost.

Non-judgmentally, is this something that a lot of players agree with?

[Takinbymadness]

In my personal opinion, difficult scripted quests are two sides of the same coin. On one side, difficulty is necessary to provide risk and keep the average level of the server low, and provide a sense of accomplishment when you manage to complete said scripted quest without dying.

On the other side, it sucks to die to a scripted quest. Really sucks.

So are they necessary? Absolutely. Does it suck to die on them? Absolutely.

[Skrillix]

I admittedly don't get to go on them often, but I tend to enjoy myself when I get the chance to, certainly more so than a quest that's accomplished with no real difficulty or danger of losing.

[Luke Danger]

If it's with people you're friends with, hard quests can be fun. I've certainly enjoyed playing with players who I work with often, especially since A: You win a lot more with fewer casualties, B: You can really develop your characters and relationships between chars, and C: I like the smell of good RP in the morning, right after the smell of Orc/Goblin/Human/Stargazer/Spider/Mort knows what else, in the morning.

However, if it's with a PUG (Pick up Group), they can be so hard I want to hurl.

So yes, it is needed to have hard quests for the Elite to play (LiS, Caddies, Mort when he plays his PCs) [note: when I say 'The Elite', I'm not trying to make an insult] and to keep the server level low (though L10 is really all you can get to by scripted questing easily, as L11 is, since you need to be that for what Legend Lore accoridng to D&D rules considers suitable for 'Legendary', quite fitting] but there should be something like this for a redick hard quest, namely 'The defenses are redicoulous, if you're not a well coordinated group, you'll have a hard time, so unless you're well coordinated and know how to work as a group, chances are you'll wind up as a pile of rotting corpses.' or something like that, or even hints partway through the quest hinting at the utter hell you will encounter.

For say, Gem Mine, why not put a 'Sad pile of adventurers' bones' somewhere, that, according to it's description, was hit by [Censured due to spoiler of endboss]. PC's (or people) who can comprehend it will get the idea that 'ah shite, we'll be in hell'. Those who just keep on grinding will be suprised.

That's what I like about Jergal's, there are hints leading to who you're facing if you take the time to look. I personally like hints being dropped along the way, it makes you wonder why it was bothered to be put in as other than secnery.

Argue my point as you will, I'll be back in oh, 18 hours to counter any arguements you have against me.

[Caddies]

While I do agree that EFU:A is quite a hardcore server in terms of difficulty (some people enjoying this, some not), the fact is there are a gamut of easy quests that the players who shy away from challenge/adversity can and do spam, so its somewhat of a non-issue.

[MindOfMist]

It is all situational, really, and depends on who you're with. A lot of the 'harder' quests are designed or balanced around fairly optimal questing groups in such a way that when people deviate it can quickly spell disaster. I for one tend to use the philosophy that I need to look out for myself, and it works well, but for a front line character this is nearly impossible with the raw amount of damage done and healing required.

[Kotenku]

The statement I made in the other thread bears some qualification. I didn't want to derail the other thread with it, but since the floor's been opeed for discussion here, I'll do so.

A lot of people go on and on about how surviving the tough quests, and taking risks is what makes the game fun. Well, technically speaking this is true. Tearing through enemies who once gave you difficulty, or you would expect to be difficult, and crushing them thoroughly under your heel is fun. It's amazingly fun.  It's the opportunity to be the badass on the front line whose prowess in battle becomes the thing of legend. I think that's what most anybody who plays a Fighter-type character is hoping to achieve.

On the other hand, scraping through a difficult quest, bit by bit, constantly worried about that single critical hit that will kill you: It sucks. Being faced with the idea of "okay, this is hard, if we were sane we'd turn back, but OOCly, I really want to finish this quest so that all the supplies I already used won't be wasted" really does suck. It's an absurd catch-22 in which you have to choose between two options to maximize your enjoyment, and one way you're doomed to die, and the other you're out a pile of expensive supplies, and you find yourself just logging off the server, because now you have nothing to do.

In practice, that is the trouble that I find in attempting scripted quests.

The only way I can really see scripted quests becoming genuinely enjoyable would be if they were to dynamically scale to the capability of the players, and the amount of consumables they have available on their characters, such that, no matter what, you'll always be faced with a challenge, but the challenge will always be surmountable.

Obviously that's not ever going to happen though, so I, (and players like me, though right now there's no evidence to suggest that such creatures exist?) feel that sometimes the only way to win, is not to play.

At times, I have desired the challenge presented by a genuinely tough quest, and enjoyed the difficulty a great deal.

A couple more issues to raise: I have enjoyed character deaths on scripted quests before. I have LAUGHED, and felt that the setback was minimal. This has only occurred when the death was entirely my fault, through getting too cocky, trying to take on too many enemies at once, attempting feats of strength that my level 4 barbarian almost pulled off, but came up short. I mention this, because I don't like the idea of people thinking that I believe my character should never have to suffer death at all.

I just loathe and despise the idea of suffering a death that I COULD NOT AVOID. When I do everything I possibly can to survive, chug healing, down all my potions, walk in and out of battle, mitigate my risks, and I still end up getting inexplicably targeted by an overpowering enemy, (especially those who seem to come out of nowhere, without proper warning, except the advantage a player gains from foreknowledge (metagaming)) and get squashed in 3 rounds...

That is the experience that I cry out against. And it's an experience that occurs too frequently, in my opinion, to make the truly difficult quests a worthwhile experience.

[Kotenku]

Double posting, to provide people reading backwards a more succinct explanation of my position:

Difficult quests ARE fun.

BUT, overpowering monsters whose difficulties are out of proportion with the monsters around them,
who have the ability to kill every member of the party in sight, in a handful of rounds,
especially when ample warning isn't provided in advance of their existence,
are not fun to deal with, and, in my opinion, are not a legitimate way to make a quest difficult.

As an example, I'll present the Seer's Quest. There are two things of note on that quest. One was the occasional Bodak spawn, which has caused people to permadie their characters out of frustration. The other, was the boss. I am not suggesting that there was not an enormous amount of fore-warning that the boss would be difficult. My issue with the boss of Seer's was that compared to his minions, all of whom were easily dealt with, the boss's difficulty was astronomically greater. It was a non-sequitur which made attempting to complete the quest a punishing experience.

[Not.Him.Again]

I prefer moderate scripted quests and tough DM quests / PvP. Why? The scripted quests are there to let you have fun and put you in the level range the DMs want. Hard scripted quests result in a lot of builds designed to survive them. Facing a thinking enemy, ie DM spice or PvP is where the fun is. What fun is it to die to an AI that is simple following a series of commands? Just my two cents.

[Raposa_Fox]

Tough Quests are easily done by metagaming, and most of the so called easy quests, are only easy because of metagaming. Try to take Harpies quest without PfE with a group of fighters. I doubt anyone does that. Gazers quest, the goblin castle one, is also done easily by knowing where to go, and drinking the right potions. So, scripted quests become difficult if you go by the RP and without metagaming. Which is a little sad, in my opinion.

[Underbard]

Personally, I like the challenge of the more difficult quests, even if I do end up using a large amount of consumables.  When you are low on supplies, you have a good reason for more Rp until such time after spamming a few easier quests, you are ready for another run at a tough one.
  Also, I think the tougher quests are great for getting faction members used to working together, the frontliners trusting the clerics to keep them healed, the wizards to not hit them with fireballs, and so forth.

[Caddies]

I'd hardly call dropping a blur potion while under fire from lots of arrows or sinking a PfE while fighting harpies (known everywhere for their enchanting songs) metagaming.

To answer Kotenku's general theme of 'scripted quests which feature monsters that can kill you easily are horrible', there is quite simply a tactic to overcome every situation in NWN- provided you a) know what it is and b) have the means (usually in the form of the right consumables) to make it happen.

If you aren't confident you have enough supplies to travel down into a vampire's sanctum, then you probably shouldn't get pissy when you inevitably die because you ran out of what is needed to survive.

In the end, those 'overpowering' monsters who 'can kill your party in a matter of rounds' can, have and will be defeated by player characters with ease, if they use tactics/teamwork and are equipped to handle it.

As for ample warning of their existence, I can't recall a single monster of this stature in any scripted quest that players don't get forewarning about.

[morva]

I think this thread is a subtle way of calling me out. Jerks

[Nihm]

I don't like quests that control.  By which I mean, restrict someone into having to do a certain thing to survive.
 
A team which is the best (ie, standard best buffs of stoneskin/concealment, fighter always blurred, healwand spamming cleric, etc) is already cordoned off into a little corner of "most effective" actions.  What rankles, for me, is when this isn't a choice ; you have to do the quest like this or get wasted.  Therefore, for these certain quests, people will just never do them without the fullplate fighter and mage that have those buffs, which is a shame.

[Drakill Tannan]

No. I switched from Thain to EFU:A because i love challenge and this server is challening. People are not as coward when faced with a good challenge. In fact, it still is too dificult but merely dificult enough. I only die when fooling arround or when mr impacient rushes foward and i try to save him so he doesn't blame it on us. When my party takes things slowly, carefully and actually plans the strategy it always turns out well. This quests are only to be avoided if your that mr impacient who isn't pacient enough to plan a strategy.

Also because you have to go slowly to survive there are lots of chances for RP. And while i'm sick of what in Than we call "Campfire RP" wich is bascially tribial roleplaying in a safe place with no regular objective, Dungeon RP never tires me. So, i get my challenge, my reward, my roleplay.. what is not to like? death? pfft ever played Diablo II on Hardcore? having something to lose adds to the fun. Antoher thing i like about EFU:A when you die you don't only get a slap in the back.

I love dificult quests. They are better.