Balance changes to strenghten the druid

[Drakill Tannan]

You already know me, i'm that guy complaining the durid is a weak class. The last thread i made was meant for me to understand how to play a druid since i didn't know why i simply couln't make it effective. I did use the only advises i found usefull in the thread: Use herbalism and experiment. I just talked to another guy who told me he was going to make a druid, but got discouraged because of the nerfs, and with that i remember another player telling me for some reason there weren't any druids (know i know why) another druid player who i talked to admited the druid was pretty weak, although not completly useless.. so i thought, it's not just me, the druid really isn't as good as it should.

I know the druid is supposed to be a support spell caster, i won't change that, my suggestions are meant to make that support much more usefull and present in the game.

First: Spells

The thing that makes a druid diferent from a weak ranger are the superior spells, therefore this spells should be remarcably usefull, even if not powerfull.

Level 1

Gresse: Reverse greese, after experimenting i realised it no longer knocks down enemies, that should be reversed, since it's full PvP it's use is already limited, since it might be more harmfull than helpfull if used while your buddies fight. However unmodified it remains usefull to disrupt and distract archers & spellcasters, and to divide enemies. Otherwise it just gives you 1 or 2 rounds more with a ranged weapon, wich is not too good.

Entrangle: In order to make it worth take entrange instead that gresse (since unmodified gresse is simply superior) i suggest giving the affecter creatures a -2 reflex save, as such, for stoping enemies, entrangle will be simply better. I also suggest the duration to be incresed.

Level 3:

Poison & infestation of Maggosts: This spells could be awsome when used against a boss if it where not because they = 2 attacks of oportunity to any druid who tries to cast them. Even if you hold an enemy with entrange you still get the AOO for getting close and the AOO for casting the spell. If however they had a range, a very short range it would be almost the same, but eliminating the AOOs, therefore making them usable, they would be great weapons when fighting bosses or real tough enemies.

Healing sting: same as above, but increse the damage made. I know it isn't supposed to be as strong as vampiric touch, i don't want that 1d4 per caster level should be enough to make it somehwat usefull.

Spike growth: Since call lighint can only be used outside and under the rain, the druid has no AoE for undergroun areas or when it's not raining. Spike growth could offer an alternative to have the druid deal damage, yet not rain destruction over the enemies. Leaving it as it is but incresing the damage slightly would do.

(i'll add more things when i have time, please read and give critisim, good founded critisism, not just "no".)

[Random_White_Guy]

Infestation of Maggots is obscene.

Someone find that old shot of Oroborous one-shotting the boss of that Ice elemental quest. I don't think that needs to be fixed at all.

[Relinquish]

The ice elemental was a bug, and druids are an insane class, they just take a different approach then clerics.

[Jayde Moon]

I think grease being able to floor whoever is within it's effects, based on a low reflex safe, is good.  It should apply to people who are trying to move within it.  Standing still in a greased area shouldn't cause a chance of knockdown.  As long as it still applies equally to allies and enemies.

Entangle is a 1st level spell that works against weak enemies.  I don't think this needs to be improved.

Poison and Maggots: 2 AoO because it's two spells.  You have to get close and draw an AoO because it's a 'Touch Attack'.  Afaik, that means you bypass any AC that isn't dodge.  Against a flat-footed opponent, you are dealing with AC 10.  There's the trade-off.  Changing this to a ranged touch attack isn't about balance, so much as it is about removing the dangers inherent in getting these powerful spells off.

The thing about spells like this, and death magic spells, is that they are balanced in a way that when they don't work (which is often), they simply do nothing.

When they work, they can be DEVASTATING.  Like it was said in the other thread and in this one... Infestation of Maggots can simply win the fight for you.  Making them easier to use isn't really in the best interests of balance.

Healing Sting: I think this is worthless as a 3d level spell.  I don't think increasing the damage on it would make me like it any more.  Maybe someone can school me on the awesomeness of this spell?

Spike Growth: Something to keep in mind, for this spell, the damage is like, a bonus... icing on the proverbial cake.  The big advantage with this spell is slowing your enemies until they rest.  Damage is more flavor.  Your enemies are slowed because they got briars in their feet.  Briars hurt, but it's only thorns.  Why should thorns do more than 1d4 dmg per round?  But a slowed enemy can only howl in pain as you pelt him from afar and he can NEVER catch up to you.

[TheMoonlightBecomesYou]

Druid is probably the one class that could be called overpowered if you play it right, dude.

[Staring Death]

Grease and entangle suffer from a problem that, I believe, all persistent servers have. They just don't work properly as they don't apply the save every round as they should. This isn't something EfU:A can change. However, grease is still very useful as it slows down anyone in it.

Poison is very useful, as it lowers strength, and thus anyone will too much stuff in their inventory find themselves slowed considerably.

Infestation of Maggots is very, very, very powerful. Lower the constitution of the target every round. Very good, worth getting up close to cast.

If you dislike Attacks of Opportunity when you cast, just use defensive casting.

[AKMatt]

Given the number of large animals that kill things on this island, I'd say that anyone who can get an AE skill bonus over +16 is just fine as far as power is concerned.  Of course, rangers probably have more of an advantage here because they don't necessarily have an obligation to respect the animals.

I would say the challenge of druids comes more from properly role-playing the outlook on nature and balance than anything mechanical.

[Nuclear Catastrophe]

To draw a line under the issue.

Druids are a powerful class.  They can melee when shifted, and they have access to a decent mixture of cleric and wizard spells.  AND they have access to a powerful animal companion.  And their stealth in the wilds is unrivalled.

They're a little weaker in interior areas, but a lot of people forget the +1ab they get given in the wilds, not to mention the fact they can use animal empathy to get themselves another companion.

You're not convincing anyone that their spells need a boost here!

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Natural Catastrophe, It's +2 AB, And a faction of their own.

Not to mention INCREDIBLY POWERFUL DRUID LOOT ON THIS SERVER.

[Jayde Moon]

You're not convincing anyone that their spells need a boost here!

Italian Spiderman has spoken.

[Letsplayforfun]

What nuke said, +1.

[BoomdaddyBP]

It is in fact, +2 unless recently changed. Although on the stat sheet two extra are given.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Even if you hold an enemy with entrange you still get the AOO for getting close and the AOO for casting the spell.

Both these AoO's are easily avoidable, if you know how. The first can be avoided by walking, rather than running, into range. The second is avoided by turning on defensive casting (in the radial menu. You can quickbar it).
This doesn't provoke an AoO, but forces a concentration check of (I think) dc 15 + spell level.
Not strictly druid advice, but any caster that doesn't know it should. :)

[Ivan]

Speaking as the player of a pyromaniac Evoker who uses Combust on bosses a LOT, I second that point. Walk the last few paces to a target, but run the rest. I don't get attacked unless they decide to turn to me for generall attacking. If you're really into close up spells, get Combat Casting so you don't suffer -4 to your Concentration for being near an enemy.

[Drakill Tannan]

I think grease being able to floor whoever is within it's effects, based on a low reflex safe, is good.  It should apply to people who are trying to move within it.  Standing still in a greased area shouldn't cause a chance of knockdown.  As long as it still applies equally to allies and enemies.

Grease and entangle suffer from a problem that, I believe, all persistent servers have. They just don't work properly as they don't apply the save every round as they should. This isn't something EfU:A can change. However, grease is still very useful as it slows down anyone in it.

Gresse does not knock down enemies in EFU:A. I don't know if it is intended or not. But i tested it on another PW and it worked just fine, just with a bit of lag. Then i tested it against some seagulls in the outer wall forest, i spent 4 gresse spells, and waited for them all to finish before casting the following one. The seagulls did made a reflex saving throw, and some of they did fail, but they wheren't knocked.

Also, although it might not seem like it, standing still in a very slippery surface does make you fall, not if you are standing casually but try and do something, like throw an object and if it's veeery slipery you might fall.

Entangle is a 1st level spell that works against weak enemies.  I don't think this needs to be improved.

However, if i'm not mistaken gresse does what entrangle, but better and more. The higher dificulty would make it worthy over gresse in some aspects

Poison and Maggots: 2 AoO because it's two spells.  You have to get close and draw an AoO because it's a 'Touch Attack'.  Afaik, that means you bypass any AC that isn't dodge.  Against a flat-footed opponent, you are dealing with AC 10.  There's the trade-off.  Changing this to a ranged touch attack isn't about balance, so much as it is about removing the dangers inherent in getting these powerful spells off.

No, i meant 2 AOOs for each spell (1 to get close, 1 for casting the spell). However:

Both these AoO's are easily avoidable, if you know how. The first can be avoided by walking, rather than running, into range. The second is avoided by turning on defensive casting

I kinda feel stupid for not having thought about that. So my suggestion about these spells is worthless. Anonymous Bosch actually told me something no other person had told me no matter how many times i asked. i suppose i asked the wrong players.

The thing about spells like this, and death magic spells, is that they are balanced in a way that when they don't work (which is often), they simply do nothing.

When they work, they can be DEVASTATING.  Like it was said in the other thread and in this one... Infestation of Maggots can simply win the fight for you.  Making them easier to use isn't really in the best interests of balance.

Couln't agree more, but not knowing how to cast them without the 2 AOOs, and since you don't use them on casual mobs but rather tough enemies and bosses, the two attacks (+ whatever number of other attacks you would recive once the creature turned to you) usually meant death.

Healing Sting: I think this is worthless as a 3d level spell.  I don't think increasing the damage on it would make me like it any more.  Maybe someone can school me on the awesomeness of this spell?

Yes the spell is pretty much worthless, 1-8 +1 per caster level is what you expect of a level 2 spell. (a not so good level 2 spell mind you)

Spike Growth: Something to keep in mind, for this spell, the damage is like, a bonus... icing on the proverbial cake.  The big advantage with this spell is slowing your enemies until they rest.  Damage is more flavor.  Your enemies are slowed because they got briars in their feet.  Briars hurt, but it's only thorns.  Why should thorns do more than 1d4 dmg per round?  But a slowed enemy can only howl in pain as you pelt him from afar and he can NEVER catch up to you.

I understand spike growth isn't a damge dealing spell. In fact it is pretty awsome to cover retreats, reveal hidden enemies, and it's best combined with gresse+vine mine+stonehold+creeping doom a combo that pretty much kills anything but a monk, that walks inside. However seeing the druid's main damage dealing spell is unusable half the time, i thought incresing the damage slightly could give this other good uses. Something simple like 1d6 damage +1 per 2 caster levels could make it quite usefull against large mobs, (At level eight it would do an average of 7 damage, never going more than 10, at level 16 it would do 11-14 damage) Considering how much HP enemies usually have, this spell would probably make your fighters need 1 or 2 hits less to kill the last guys in the mob. This considering not many players have characters capable of casting level 7 spells, so spike growth can never be used at it's true power.

Druid is probably the one class that could be called overpowered if you play it right, dude.

Wich is what i thought at first: i ain't playing it right. That's why i made the "how to play a druid in efu" thread, to seek advise, yet, no one could give me an especific way in wich the druid could be invaluable in any way. Even the bard, the suposedly jack of all trades, has some irreplacable goodies, unmodified for example, the druids goodie is his massive stop power and his damage per round at high levels. But even in-game i couln't find anyone who could tell me how to use a druid properly, instead i got respones such as "i think druids are meant to be weak"

If you have any advises i'd love to hear them, though PM, as a reply IG.. any time you want.

To draw a line under the issue.

Druids are a powerful class. They can melee when shifted, and they have access to a decent mixture of cleric and wizard spells. AND they have access to a powerful animal companion. And their stealth in the wilds is unrivalled.

They're a little weaker in interior areas, but a lot of people forget the +1ab they get given in the wilds, not to mention the fact they can use animal empathy to get themselves another companion.

I agree they can melee, one thing i like about the EFU:A druid is that he/she can reamin shifted forever, and the buffs also last foever, as such in worg shape i can pretty much melee all the time. But, it get's nothing close to a fighter, not even a mediocre one, wich is why i can't rely on melee all the time. I won't say anything about wildshape, it was really powerfull originally, it's still usefull now. Although let me tell you, a wiz/sorc can be a far stronger fighter than the druid, even without shapes.

As for the cleric/wizard mix.. ehh.. well if we are talking about healing spells it's nothing special. Any newcomer can find a Yimphian pearl of heal light wounds +15, sell it and we have the druid almost replaced (at low levels) same goes with cure minor wounds. The druid doesn't have remove curse, and his restorations only get to the lesser one. Because of that, as a healer he is good only with "cure critical wounds" wands and removing poison/disease. The druid buffs aren't anything too special either, the best would be barbskin wich can't be given by anything else (i'm not sure though, if a cleric with a certian domain can) and while it may have bull's, druids doesn't have cat's grace, endurance etc. so they can support fron fighters, but if they intend to fight themselves they'll need to spend 2 level 2 slots on themsleves, so they aren't that good as a support. As for the wizard spells, their damage dealing capabilities by spells are limited at low levels, wich is, by what i've seen, is the usual leel arround EFU:A.

I disagree with the strong companion part. At least with the panther. The panther is nothing special, it does not have good HP, AC or raw damage, and it's only good for the sneak attack (too good IMO, it was good to nerf it, i just think you did it a bit too much) but it is now capped at 1d6 forever, making the compaion, quite just another summon, and i'm not risking a compainon, soemthing that should be roleplayed as very valuable to die like most sumomons do, from what i've read in this page a druid who endagers his/her companion often is cruel, considering it can't survive to well on it's own (unless buffed, and even then nothing special) it's not a good idea to use it as a weapon. I think you also loose XP when it dies, i forghot to check if i had lost XP thouse both times mine died, but i would really like to avoid it if it's true.

As for animal empathy, that's soething i haven't been able to try out. Druids are not frontliners, and even when i cast animal emphaty on an animal my party keeps attacking it so...

Natural Catastrophe, It's +2 AB, And a faction of their own.

Not to mention INCREDIBLY POWERFUL DRUID LOOT ON THIS SERVER.

I didn't know about the powerfull druid loot. I'll have to search for it i guess.


Whew... i think that's all, i'll udate my orignal suggestion as soon as my eyes heal from the radiation form the monitor :D