Rebalancing stealth for rogues

[Random_White_Guy]

People often talk up the whole situation where rogues are fundamentally crippled in stealth compared to other classes. Stalkers get their arcane support over stealth. Rangers get OWTL and Camo. Druids get OWTL + Camo + Mass Camo + Stealth WIldshape. In EFU the class that most notoriously was the stealth and spy and sneaky class has been more or less delegated to "Those guys who can sneak attack". To remedy this I'd like to propose something a little more abstract.

I'm uncertan if it's even possible but I think it would be neat to make scripted tweaks Rogues be able to move at normal speed in Stealth and Detect mode.

Rogues are after all PROFESSIONALS and they've done this presumably for a living. It would make IC sense that a rogue is better at moving with speed while stealthy over other PCs. It would make sense that Rogue PCs are better able to move around quickly while taking in the world around them.

A "Rogue Only Bonus"/no multiclass, exceptions for PRCs like other bonuses type of perk it would at least add a degree of more unique presence to the powers of a Rogue.

They may not be the stealthiest but they can keep up with people sneaking moving normal speed, spot traps without slowing down the grand adventure, and ultimately are quick and efficient in their trade.

[Grotesque]

I'm not sure you realize how EXTREMELY BENEFICIAL the ability to run in stealth/detect mode would be. Rogues might not have the ability to indefinitely procure camo/OWTL for themselves, sure, but the potions aren't that rare. I could sympathize with the suggestion of a level 8 perk that gives +25% speed in stealth/detect mode, but to just have the penalties of stealth/detect mode negated in their entirety on top of the amazing perks they get? I wouldn't want that, given how strong rogues already are.

[astroknave]

More stealth loot in low and mid tier quests would go a long ways.  Just finding +2 boots and cloaks for rogues has become difficult whilst druids and rangers can get these far more readily to add to their already substantial skill points.

[Paha]

While I am slightly symphatetic to a scaled down version of that, there's few issues mechanically. We've actually tested some similar idea things in past but they are just too wonky as we cannot directly access some functions of it. It would also require us to rebalance perks as there are several ways to get additional movement speed, some perks grant it as well. Furthermore, I do understand the distain of rogue seeming far weaker in that regard. They are. But if they get item or potions to take benefit of the spells like camo or one with the land, they still have the huge amount of skill points, sneak attack chance to do hideous damage on one single hit and UMD, etc. etc.

We're speaking of stealth matter here, so I definitely am slightly favorable for them having some side to it that shines on rogue, one is sneak attack, but I get that is not counted by many. If there are any other ideas that could be doable, then feel welcomed to think on it and present more ideas.

[Vlaid]

Why not give rogues who have Skill Focus Hide or Move Silently an additional bonus to those skills? The "Shadow" Perk could maybe use some tuning.

Rogues give up a lot to take stealth feats or perks so if a rogue specializes on it they should be exceptional at it. It would require they are giving up some mechanical power (loss of some kind of combat feats such as WF, Knockdown, rapid shot or whatever).

I don't think it's that rogues stealth sucks, just that the options to focus on stealth make you sacrifice too much to get effective stealth.

[Nuclear Catastrophe]

It's balanced BECAUSE rogues sacrifice a lot to get so much stealth.

You can boost your hide and move silently to ridiculous levels using a couple of feats, and the perks are designed to make rogues more comparable with other classes stealth wise - but they should certainly lose some combat prowess to compensate, because it's actually a very strong class in a lot of ways, it's just that people don't really know how to build it as efficiently as they maybe could... (sneak attack is incredible.  You hit for a fireball worth of damage at level 7.)

I feel like if there's an issue at all it's that the other classes have been boosted too much and maybe should get nerfs, instead of potentially breaking another class - the rogue perks are really rather good.  Maybe making the ranger, druid and sorc bonuses scale better perhaps.

If I was going to buff rogues, it would be less along the stealth lines and more along the vs undead / sneak attack immune creatures somehow, because that has always been an unfair drawback to the class.

[astroknave]

I think it'd be neat to see sneak attack sensitivity added somehow.  Like creatures have certain levels of sensitivity on a scale from 1-5, 1 being no damage at all and 5 being full damage.  This could aid balance in respects to making some creatures a little less sensitive while making others who have some slight sensitivity.  Not sure if it's viable though.

[Kinslayer988]

As is, rogues have many abilities that other classes don't. Stealthing should be a specialty. The thing about rogues is that they are a jack of all trades. A ranger may have higher stealth buffed, but can they deal with traps, locks, UMD, sneak attack, and persuade/bluff/intimidate their way through situations as easily as a rogue can? No they cannot. Rogues are as I always have thought of them, a jack of all trades class that may not always benefit a party through mechanical combat means, but by utility and support means.

[VanillaPudding]

It's balanced BECAUSE rogues sacrifice a lot to get so much stealth.

You can boost your hide and move silently to ridiculous levels using a couple of feats, and the perks are designed to make rogues more comparable with other classes stealth wise - but they should certainly lose some combat prowess to compensate, because it's actually a very strong class in a lot of ways, it's just that people don't really know how to build it as efficiently as they maybe could... (sneak attack is incredible.  You hit for a fireball worth of damage at level 7.)

I feel like if there's an issue at all it's that the other classes have been boosted too much and maybe should get nerfs, instead of potentially breaking another class - the rogue perks are really rather good.  Maybe making the ranger, druid and sorc bonuses scale better perhaps.

If I was going to buff rogues, it would be less along the stealth lines and more along the vs undead / sneak attack immune creatures somehow, because that has always been an unfair drawback to the class.

Your last statement is great, and I think I suggested it some very long time ago. Something along the lines of 1/3 sneak bonus vs construct / undead / whatever (as in every 3rd pure level would grant 1d6 divine damage vs creature type). Consdiering they do about zero damage to these things otherwise and that it still fits the role of "sneak attack", I don't think it would be unbalancing. As for the other part about ridiculous stealth levels after investing two or three feats (or all but one/two at level 9 if you look at it from the other angle), they still lack in stealth ability after being completely dedicated to it. Nerfing the -default abilities- of rangers and druids isn't really the direction to take, at least in my opinion, and I feel like a flat +1 per 2 levels stealth bonus would be the best option for rogues. Remove that lame small race bonus while you're at it and things would be balanced well ;)

[PintSizedSaboteur]

Nerfing the -default abilities- of rangers and druids isn't really the direction to take, at least in my opinion, and I feel like a flat +1 per 2 levels stealth bonus would be the best option for rogues. Remove that lame small race bonus while you're at it and things would be balanced well ;)

lol

so nerfing the default abilities for two classes that have absurd stealth isn't the direction to take but nerfing the stealth abilities of two+ races is

makes good sense

[quesadilla98]

Adding perks that give benefits to rogues vs certain creature types would be decent i.e., engineer or a new perk giving 1d6 electric vs constructs, etc.

[VanillaPudding]

lol

so nerfing the default abilities for two classes that have absurd stealth isn't the direction to take but nerfing the stealth abilities of two+ races is

makes good sense

Correct

[Paha]

I again remind you, not all classes and perks are meant to be equal. Rogues are also not meant to be all around powerhouses. Their one aspect is that they are jacks of all trades - almost. A lot of skill points, they can sneak, they can open locks, they can place traps and remove them. Their greatest weakness surely are unliving and constructs that do not have similar weaknesses compared to living for sneak attacks. Likewise some creatures are immune to fire and makes fire based attacks futile. These are some more interesting aspects of D&D and I personally will favor those extremes on the few classes that have such clear distinctions. It happens to be that in our setting the non-living type creatures may be great. It just is. Now, just like have been said, some perks have been added to give options. Cool and usable ideas will absolutely be reviewed and tested to see if something can be done with them, likewise.

There are always those that use every small bonus, race, perk, class - all to take the most advantage they can get. That is the core of games. There are aspects that can be played to their utmost optimization. In some level of play, many of us don't want to lose that even if it serves little to RP. It is still a game in its heart. By nature this type of RP and the setting will have flaws and there is no perfect balance to please everyone. This subject is certainly one that will always offer controversy.

[Lyardiir Leafsigil]

I'm a rogue and I don't mind if rangers sneaks better than I do when in the wild. I must admit that I have had quite a bit of difficulties sneaking around at times, even if I've invested in perks and feats. I would wager that the quality of loot would still factor so much more than any future changes the DMs would implement.

If anything, what bothered me most while playing this class so far is the utter lack of (real) traps and (pickable) locks I've encountered so far. Otherwise, the perks are fun and I enjoy the class, I'm not against receiving a buff or two, but I don't think it's necessary.

[Paha]

It is not a bad notion to remind folks of maybe using locks, traps etc. other options in quests and places to give variety for different classes and options.