Rebalancing stealth for rogues

[Mia]

One thing about the rogue vs ranger stealth debate always bothered me is the hidden perk rangers get. Both classes have perks, both classes have their classic features. Which includes stealth spells for rangers and sneak attacks for rogues. However, rangers get +4 to spot, listen, hide and move silently in the wilds as a custom efu addition once they hit level 5. Wilds in this scenario refers to a large portion of the areas in the server currently.

This only adds to what are already class skills, can be boosted with spells they get themselves and their complementary equipment. Maybe this bonus should be scrapped. Or rogues should get something alike at level 5+. An urban bonus for example. But since rogues are more varied than rangers, let them pick between Stealth (hide, move silently), Social (persuade, intimidate, bluff), Detection (search, spot, listen) and Technical (open lock, disable/set trap).

Of course their perks also let you improve on that already. But its not like rangers don't get perks. Strangely enough, both rangers and rogues have been given so much perks that now we're not looking to balance the core classes with perks, but we are trying to balance the perks!

[PlayaCharacter]

I have a suggestion about this that I'd like to bounce off of you all. This idea is meant to resolve what has been one of my longstanding gripes with the rogue class.

One of the things a rogue is best suited for is being a broker of information. This means spying on others' roleplay sessions. The problem comes when all of your stealth buffs wear off and your desired targets are still introducing themselves to each other, or getting sidetracked into some OOC conversation, or else discussing something other than what you are there to discover. There's an inherent imbalance here, i.e. any buff given that lasts long enough to accommodate slow typers would make rogues absurdly powerful stealthers compared to other classes.

My suggestion is this: give rogues a once a day "Eavesdrop" tool, activated by a chat command, that gives them a big H/MS bonus that only lasts as long as they are standing still. In addition, it would get deactivated and the rogue kicked out of stealth mode if another PC comes within attack range in order to prevent its use for sneak attack ambushes. The only point of this is to give the rogue class the unique ability to spy on other PCs' role play sessions. Now that wildshape has a duration, rogues would become the only class with the ability to do this indefinitely.

I'm not seeing any downsides to this, and it would open up the possibility for more Lord Varys and Littlefinger types of characters. Thoughts?

[One_With_Nature]

I don't know if this is documented but rangers get a passive bonus to detection skills at level 5. Why not just give rogues something similar but as they can excel in many areas why not give then a choice between:

- Social Skills (Persuade, Intimidate, Bluff)
- Stealth Skills (Hide, Move Silently)
- Tinkering (Open Lock, Disable Trap, Set Trap)
- Detection (Search, Listen, Spot)
- Speed (Pickpocket, Tumble)
- Knowledge (Lore, Spellcraft, UMD)
- Combat (Discipline, Concentration)

I think rangers get +4 so maybe add this as a passive bonus at whatever level and then a rogue can excel in one particular area I don't think it will break the class but allow a more focused skill set.

[One_With_Nature]

This could be a passive bonus at level 5 and you could select it from the start area as a theme. I know rogues already get quite a few perks so if it was felt that this would make them too unbalanced I think a fair compromise would be rogues only getting 1 minor perk 1 major perk and a passive skill set bonus (as above).

Main weakness of rogues as some have pointed out is that anything immune to critical hits (also immune to sneak attacks) which is a massive draw back for any rogue who wants to be combat based. However- that being said they have to have some drawbacks as not all classes are equal in capabilities but certainly against targets that are not immune to sneak attack you can potentially do devastating burst damage.

It would also be nice to see a couple of merchants that might be ROGUE only (I know there are at least two already which could just include more in the shop) with rogue ONLY equipable items with modest skills on similar to what the wildlings have (druids mainly). A few examples could be:
 
- Rogues Leather Jerkin Base 2 Leathers, +2 hide +2 ms, OUB:Rogue
- Pocket Knife Dagger +1 hide, +1 ms, +1 pp OUB: Rogue
- Alley Cloak +2 hide +2 tumble OUB:Rogue
- Concealing Helm +1 hide +2 search, +2 spot OUB:Rogue
- Hide / OWL Potions (Only accessible to rogues) 1.5-2x PC cost.
- Assortment of weapons with minor bonuses vs undead/constructs/oozes etc..

[Letsplayforfun]

My stand on this is elsewhere... We've gotten use to "always more" +++ stuff in mechanics, with two direct consequences:

- first it makes things mechanically possibly unbalanced if you pick the right combination of things -when it's not broken.

- second it makes players/pcs as a whole more and more able, making dms making the setting more and more dire, killing off those players who can't keep up (and I'm one) and new players

If anything, i think a lot of things could use a nerf, and not a boost, so that whatever option picked by a player is only incidental to his stats & rp related.

So before you call me a naysayer, consider that balancing stuff can also be suggested by lowering things, not starting the ever increasing boost trend.

[PlayaCharacter]

LPFF, the reason we aren't suggesting nerfs in the rogue thread is because rogues are the ones having problems and everything else works fine. I know I'm not the only one who doesn't want to see other classes get gimped just to achieve some sort of parity with the weakest stealth class. EfU is literally the hardest NWN setting on the entire internet, it is in absolutely zero danger of a "boost trend," and if it were, that would only be to its benefit.

[GoD1x]

Rogue stealth isn't much the big issue for me. I do envy the occasional ranger buff, but there's plenty of those vials around.
The only buff I feel would be nice is having a bit greater damage output against constructs/undead, if it's possible.
Perhaps tied to skills like disable trap for constructs and lore for undead, with every n'th rank giving you an extra 1d4-1d6 damage when flanking? Or tied to perks.