Potion economy and brewing

[Ebok]

Baubilium is not a resource common enough to count.

[VanillaPudding]

I personally believe that a total revamp of herbalism / alchemy so that they cover potions and wands (and even scrolls, imbued gems, etc) would be absolutely amazing. It doesn't even need to be nearly as advanced, and other items could certainly be in the table of rewards, but I think that having characters go out and gather plants, minerals, gems, and other things in competition is far superior to the current state of affairs.

[VanillaPudding]

To be more clear, I wouldn't remove the current brewing / wand making system, but rather have an additional means created. What I think would be the best way to accomplish this would be to create the new system and provide a range of success levels ( I believe KOP suggested something similar) within the alchemy / herbalism reward tables. A player might craft nothing and have a failure, a single charge imbued gem, a 5 charge wand, or a 25 charge wand. That would all depend upon their success in the attempt. Some thing for potions and the level they are created at. I believe healing potions can be made at level 3, 6, and 10 for example.

This would also allow more variety in brews and wands, opening up some of the spells above level 3 for example (not all obviously, or even most, but some aren't a bad idea) and also allow for custom potions / wands to be made. Some of those old potions with a "unique power" on them for example.

[Ebok]

If an alchemy or herbalism revamp were to occur. It would need to be far easier to use and those uses should be public knowledge. Think of it like brewing or wand crafting, everyone knows how its done, but may not be able to do it themselves. I would be nervous about the total extinction of underdark plants in this suggestion.

[Knight Of Pentacles]

Another way to decrease crafter disparity without knocking balance off kilter is to allow all casters to brew by default without feats.  However, each craft requires you make a save of some sort where the higher the save the lower the cost.  But it'll always be significantly more expensive than someone brewing with feats.  Example: Endure Elements might cost 30 and 5 xp to someone with the feats.  But those without have to pay anywhere from 38-50 and 10-25 xp per.  (Just a rough estimate of numbers because I can't find a price chart for EFU)

[Vlaid]

I really dislike the over reliance on brewers in EFUR. The way the setting/factions are setup it encourages the "who is going to play the brewer" mentality for every group or faction.

More supplies in quests and less gold is the obvious solution.

[granny]

I would like to speak of the amount of nerfing that alchemy and herbalism have gone through. I do not know of the abuses people speak about since I started hearing about the issue because I was rarely part of groups that did it with success. Yet, I fail to see how the nerfing has really improved this awesome system.

One of the "nerfs" I dislike the most is how reagents are absurdly heavy and end up messing all the inventory. Take inventory tetris to a whole new level now. Have you ever wondered why granny walks around encumbered so often? Well, now you know. It would be good if you could stack groups of reagents instead of having to deal with that mess that becomes your pouches.

Not to mention all the secrecy, the high danger of practicing it, the difficulty to gather and keep reagents, all this makes harder and harder to develop enough knowledge, even more if you consider that most characters will probably live less than enough to even actually really master anything. I am afraid that most successful alchemists are probably the result of meta knowledge accumulated through several characters (but this is a guess, not actually something that comes from actual knowledge, so I might be wrong here).

My bet is that alchemy and herbalism were made harder and less profitable through the years mostly because of the more powerful things you might be able to do with them. Although, along with these things, you also made the more ordinary things as harder.

I honestly love player driven economy, as my first experiences with RPGs were in worlds that economy had played a main role in the definition of the server's society. I think that persistent merchants that could be rented might make some things better to deal with. Chiefly, by improving the exchange of reagents without the need of being encumbered to carry what you might desire. It also might bring more importance to gardens and incentive the trade of herbs. You might also keep alchemical goods open to be bought even if you aren't around.

Another thing that I would like to see, maybe, is the possibility of you actually being allowed to pursue the documentation of your recipes instead of having to keep them all secret or stuck in the mind of a PC who spreads that knowledge through oral tradition only. I think that it would be nice to plot on stealing a known alchemist's book of recipes to have access to their secrets, but I am hardly sure of how this could be implemented although.

So, yeah, my guess is that the issue is not with potion brewing. It's more about having two systems that might create similar things at different risks/ rewards. If alchemy and herbalism produced similar things at less danger/ difficulty and throw away potion brewing completely we could maybe have a hint of solution here.

[One_With_Nature]

First off I would just like to say I think that there being less of a supply bloat and a lot more reward in the form of gold is excellent. More gold to throw around not only on supplies, but to push plots/agendas too, post bounties etc. It also means a lot more interaction with PCs be it a brewer who you need potions from or an assassin who you have hired to murder political figure number 7.

I do think the brewing system need revamping entirely and I like the suggestion about there being an EFUSS skill for this. Do away with the XP penalty entirely, really don't think its necessary at all. Have 3 tiers of potion brewing which could be based on spellcraft/efuss skill where you can make a dissipating brew on a low roll, standard brew on successful roll or those who have taken brew potion get a significant boost to their roll and if they roll very high a chance to brew potion with higher CL. Keep a fixed price for each potion then a dedicated brewer can yield better results. An alternative idea if you don't like the idea of different CL/dissipating brews you could introduce something like the old minor perks and maybe give brewers a small chance to create an extra potion when brewing say stacks of 5+ (with Brew Potion feat) or have it so potions brewed grant a random additional beneficial effect to reward dedicated brewers. But essentially with this system any caster could brew without investing a feat unless they want to dedicate themselves to the craft.

In terms of alchemy, having explored it very thoroughly I know you can pretty much create any potion already out there that you can brew. That's not to say its easier to achieve and you would have to invest ample amounts of time to even get close to understanding how to achieve this result. Also because of the continued nerfs to the system it without giving too much away I can say that the work involved to produce these results has reached a stage where it is far too tedius and time consuming to pursue this as an avenue in place of brewing.  


I am currently playing a monster PC and generally I have not seen an issue with obtaining supplies or gold. (But gold is certainly more readily available). For supplies such as haste/displacement etc.. you do need to seek a PC brewer out unless you want to pay bloated prices from NPCs. So it would be nice to see more brewers out there and I think abolishing the need to take the feat and working it into the EFUSS system would be great, but I imagine that this will be no simple task and a DM is going to have to spend quite a bit of time setting this up.

One thing that would be nice to see however is on some of the more challenging quests to see more uncommon potions drop such as:- Haste/Displacement/True Strike/Improved Invis/Freedom Of Movement. Perhaps added to loot table of quest that PCs don't do often or the option more challenging parts of quests.

[Letsplayforfun]

Personnally I toy with the idea of making most potions and trinkets dissipating, to put everyone at near equality each reset & various other reasons, with the counterpart of spawning more in quests for instant use (or other in quest methods)But don't worry it's mostly me myself and I.

We probably could use more expensive costs of brewing in terms of coins (so that npc merchants compete with pc merchants, and drain a bit more coins for equal/less profit), and maybe less in terms of XP (but that's actually very minor unless lvling to 10 is your main objective). Or simply make the quator haste/ displacement/blur/CSW not brewable, like shield, or much more expensive.

Or we could lower the overhaul difficulty to make potions not needed and very not accessible for everyone. Because there's the spiraling up effect (hard server -> consummable -> good merchanic player beat it more easily -> increase difficulty -> etc.) that gets in every now and then. But that's very tedious work and culture change, although elders say efu1 was quite a challenge tackling umber hulks with a stick. Who now is afraid of an umber hulk?

[One_With_Nature]

Who now is afraid of an umber hulk?

Umberhulk Behemoth or Stalker?

Pretty afraid.

[VanillaPudding]

Personnally I toy with the idea of making most potions and trinkets dissipating, to put everyone at near equality each reset & various other reasons

Dissipating potions and wands are already part of the issue at hand ;)

[Vagrant Savant]

NPC's that sell dissipating potions for a lower cost would help a bit on the issue of reliance on brewers, and curb some of the gold from quests by premeditative costs. Not the high end potions, but rather the quote unquote, essentials -- like healing potions. Something that pretty much anyone in a party will use liberally in a quest or event.

[Saturnalia]

NPC's that sell dissipating potions for a lower cost would help a bit on the issue of reliance on brewers, and curb some of the gold from quests by premeditative costs. Not the high end potions, but rather the quote unquote, essentials -- like healing potions. Something that pretty much anyone in a party will use liberally in a quest or event.

I like this idea a lot. Maybe if something like it were at a neutral but accessible location like the Mound.

[granny]

If the issue here is the fact that some factions/ groups end up having a personal brewer, I guess the solution is not upon making potion brewing harder or to nerf it (I have got enough dire wolves in herbalism, thanks). The brewer already invest a feat on it, so does XP and coins.

Putting what I have said in my last post in a different way and considering everyone's suggestions since it, I think that it would be good that the brewer could keep a shop, with different options of places available, one more Upper oriented, another more Lower oriented and a third in the wilds, maybe at the Mound.

This way, it keeps the potions somewhat restricted to the groups that frequent that area and allows the brewer to reach people even without being around.

[Pandip]

Dissipating potions in bulk -- whether buying, creating, or finding them -- run into the issue of unexpected server crashes and emergency updates. I'm dubious about them being the answer.