Kobolds and GOblins app only

[Valium Skies]

I find myself forced to disagree in part with the original poster's reasons for this suggestion, because the argument does not proceed far enough. The crux of the argument seems to be that goblins and kobolds are not treated appropriately according to their context within the Forgotten Realms setting by the majority of humanoid characters. This argument holds little-to-no water; making goblins and kobolds application only would affect the players of said monstrous characters; it would not change the way humanoid characters react to them. If you wish to take the opposite side of this argument and state that the players of these monstrous characters are not representing their race's nature appropriately, the same argument could be made for those players who play other humanoid non-human races-elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and half-orcs-and obviously making these races application-only would be an absurd idea to suggest. Mechanically, goblins and kobolds have no special advantages that ECL subraces/races do that should require them to be applied for.

Goblins and kobolds are indeed monsters, however, and this is certainly a valid argument to make for requiring them to be application only. Goblins and kobolds are cowardly, insignificant creatures whose primary threats are in their large numbers and vicious, sneaky "tactics," not in their individual power or in their intellects and prowess. They exist to serve as a challenge for low-level humanoid adventurers. It does make sense to suggest that any monstrous race or subrace-whether it has an ECL or not-should be application only, and this is, again, a valid argument, although it appears to be one the EfU DM team has already considered and dismissed.

I think the real question that needs to be asked, then, is this: what have application-free goblins and kobolds brought to EfU? Have they brought interesting, deep character concepts that influenced the server in a positive manner? Or have they simply served to foment intense PvP conflict? The old setting of Sanctuary was one that was very much rife with PvP, and dominated by the controlling effect of the monsters that, for all intents and purposes, ruled the Underdark. In this PvP-heavy, monster-dominated setting of Sanctuary, goblins and kobolds being application-free certainly seemed to proceed well, especially after the initial balloon of them died down.

Yet now, EfU has a new setting: the archipelago. While this setting still carries with it the feel of desperate survival and over-arching evil, it is also a setting that is (hopefully) less dour and dark than that of Sanctuary. So the question that I think should be asked for the relevance of non-application goblins and kobolds in this new setting is this: do goblins and kobolds, as monstrous races whose very existence is largely to serve as opponents for low-level adventurers, contribute in a meaningful way to the evolution of this new main server setting, or do they instead represent a holdover from the trite PvP conflicts of Sanctuary that were at least one of the reasons the server setting was changed? If the answer is yes, then non-application goblins and kobolds remain legitimate. If the answer is no, then they should probably be made application-only once more, to prevent them from impinging the growth and development of this (effectively) new server.

Goblins and kobolds are fun, I won't deny this. I can see how others find them fun, and want to incorporate them as much as possible into the gameworld. Yet if their only purpose as PCs is to PvP and quest-spam with humanoid PCs, then they fulfill no real purpose in a roleplay-oriented playerworld, and should be relegated to application-only, and only approved when a goblin/kobold concept has some other underlying purpose besides fighting other characters and spamming quests.

[Garem]

"you are frustrated because you are somehow forced (by what??) to fd people despite the fact you don't like it?"

I am not forced by anything, but I am compelled to fight and kill them because it is what my character ought to do. He never hesitates to pepper a goblin out in the woods with arrows, as damned near every PC does. Why should my attitude towards a race change just because they aren't instantly set to hostile by being a PC monster. Hell, they're CLOSER to the city and the people and thus should be considered MORE dangerous and MORE worthy of peppering with arrows.

And one more thing to add: it's frustrating to have to try and grab a DM to hunt a gobbo all the time. Just seems like such a minor thing to waste their time over, yet it's so important to get one because it's PvP all the same.

So yea. [beats the horse a little more for good measure]

[lovethesuit]

Throwing my hat in, would like to see kobolds/goblins return to app only on a temporary basis.

[ExileStrife]

I like the sound of THIS music!

[Scalebane7676]

Yes

[SlarrikVilbiss]

What I'll throw in here is... Gobsquat. Half the server relies on Goblins to live. Why would you kill a goblin on sight? Maybe you're killing the Chieftain's Messanger. Oops... look what you did wrong now. >_>

[Jasede]

I haven't really seen and badly played kobolds and goblins - and I'm quite good at telling how to play kobolds /wrong/ because that's how I usually play them. :(

In any case, all the monsters I met so far were evil, servile, self-serving and callous, and cunning. Most PCs I meet attack almost on sight, and if they don't they tend to have good IC reasons for that.

When I tried playing my first kobold here, everyone attacked me on sight. Maybe one out of ten helped me.

I can only imagine how hard it is for players who do not have the IC fortune of running into the hands of a

Hide

.

In any case, my point is: I am not a DM, but I don't see any of these supposedly badly played kobolds or goblins. It'd be arrogant of me to actually consider some other character badly played because I am not really in a position to judge if someone RPs well or not. I also thought that the no-application policy really, really enriched EfU, and I think it can do so too on EFU: A, like enriching the atmosphere of Lower and encouraging PvP. At best I'd be in favour of temporary applications to see how that works out.

[close]

[Dopson]

I like this idea too.

While Valium Skies made a few good points, I think making the races app only would still change things. I know it wouldn't directly change the way other PCs react to these monsters, but at least it would guarantee that the players who are playing these races are mainly playing them how they're sort of supposed to be played. I know you shouldn't tell people how to play their characters, but everyone knows cute and cuddly goblins are as common as good drow.

I also think Garem made a very good point. I dislike it very much when people are more than eager to go and slaughter a goblin tribe, but when a PC goblin shows up the very same PCs start defending the PC goblin. I know that again, you shouldn't be telling people how to play their characters (which was the most repeated argument the last time this issue was discussed, if I recall correctly). I would, however, like to hear an IC reasoning behind such behaviour.

The thing I'd also like to point out is that even though these races used to be app only, the apps were very easy to get approved. That's how at least I would like it to be again. It's a good way to keep a good percent of the monsters as vicious as they really are.

I am against putting kobold/goblin PCs for app because I'd rather not add frustration for both DM and player to approve 6-9 separate applications for just a typical goblin band.

If you've got a band of 6-9 goblins, you'll probably have some nice goals you might want the DMs to know about anyway.

[Dilandau Kale]

I like this idea too.
I also think Garem made a very good point. I dislike it very much when people are more than eager to go and slaughter a goblin tribe, but when a PC goblin shows up the very same PCs start defending the PC goblin.

Well one could go the other way with this logic as well when people are more than happy to kill a Goblin PC then turn a blind eye to all the Non hostile goblin NPC'S living next door.

[Dilandau Kale]

Also at the moment from an Ig perspective there is a very justified reason for having large numbers of Goblin Pc's in that we have a town full of them next door. (Admitadly it might help if new goblin players were allowed to spawn in Goblsquat)

[I can has fun?]

I would like to see PC goblins go away, but I would also like to point out that there is a half-drow NPC who has "civilized" the Gobsquat, which really makes no sense. When I saw the Gobsquat for the first time, I thought to myself, "Hm, I guess the EfU DMs decided that goblins are cute and cuddly after all."

Goblins are either nasty and brutish or they are not. I'm all for making goblins app only, but if that's going to happen I would also like to set fire to the Gobsquat and forget it ever existed.

[9lives]

lol

[eliff]

Ok i thought i might aswell put in an opinion because i think this may be to do with my goblin, Gnarl.  To point out that he had 16 int and while he was an evil necro, he was not stupid.  Why should an intelligent goblin go around saying he is evil and looking to get attacked by team good.  It is not playing badly, just trying to survive long enough to actually fight back.  Really if you made goblins app only then I think there would be very little interest in them because they have disadvantages already and applying for them may be quite lengthy.

[Cruzel]

.  Really if you made goblins app only then I think there would be very little interest in them because they have disadvantages already and applying for them may be quite lengthy.

Drow, Duergar and whatnot, pretty much any other monstrous race is at this disadvantage. They are monsters and are attacked rightly, on a whim.  The extra challenge is/should be part of the deal.  If you do not want to be PVP'd for little to no reason, don't play a monster.

I support any monster being app only, imo.

[Letsplayforfun]

Just to chime in, i'd support any monster PC being app only too. There's already a wide variety of races that we can endorse, have 2 more races doesn't add much more, imo.

Sure it's fun to play a goblin or kobold, but if it doesn't add something really original to the gameworld, then half orcs or any evil PC suit in just fine.

As for PCs dealing with NPCs differently than with PCs, that's not a new issue. EfU had the same one with Lord Bunge for example. Make PC monsters rare, and that will hardly be a problem anymore.