The MMOisation of EFU

[SatelliteMind]

Is it possible/Feasible to script a mailing system? I know another server  had Messenger birds that you could send items to players online, but is  it possible to be able to send stuff to players offline? If so, then  DM's could send PC's rewards from NPC's. Example. Taryn leads a group of  adventurers to praise Talos through (Insert fun event here). The priest  of Talos, impressed with her initiative, sends her a special reward for  it. I understand this isn't gonna help with rewarding a full group but  it would be nice for people who do mostly just run PC explorations and  stuff. It also gives players more of an incentive to communicate  everything they do.

Taken from a thread from Efu's sister server CoA for a lack of a better word;   which is experiencing a similar problem. I really like the idea and wonder if this is something that adapted in Efu's own style that could facilitate player pushing plots without a DM online.

[Zango_Unchained]

Honestly, the issue here is that questing is quite literally the only way to level up that is "uncapped" unlike various turn in systems which cap out at certain levels. Which I also find to be mind-numbing and boring. I feel players should get a EXP tick for rpling in taverns and other social places. You should get exp for every recipe found in alchemy and herbalism.

There needs to be more /paths/ to eight as opposed to keeping this talk so centric on quests, why don't we explore how to make proper exp/rp ways to get to eight that does not include killing a few thousand kobolds.

[Ebok]

We are inherently dealing with a dungeons and dragons system. So killing monsters, adventuring, and questing are really are the core of the game mechanics and therefore the rewards system. What makes D&D not an MMO is that we are pretending that we're someone in the world for real, we are giving the world a sense of suspended realism. This means we are actually playing an MMO, but are trying to conceal and transcend that fact through Role Playing.

We are limited however. So it takes collective effort on all fronts to see beyond these limitations and really make something feel awesome. Notice that I said FEEL. Its extremely important.

1.) You need to break the Rules.[INDENT] What I mean is... You must to be able to defy the game limitations in some way. To achieve things that cannot be simply achieved by questing and fighting. This can be facilitated by a DM or cooperation with another player. A DM could give emotion to an otherwise immobile npc or red monster. A player can let another character's emotional or persuasive appeals change their behavior. If you could simply stab it and walk past, then the actions involved did not have enough consequence to matter. Either way, this is a two-way street and communication is essential here.  We have codified some of this into the Law enforcement of Sanctuary but it exists in all interactions. Outside of the game's combat rolls, if you do x, and person with y finds out, he has options that aren't simply click attack.

Since most of the time we are locked into a MMO, sometimes if you want  creativity, you have to prompt the other person out of their normal:  death defying glorious adventurer mindset. One of the biggest issues with maintaining the illusion of an alternative reality are when game mechanics become a descriptor of the world. Instead of focusing on what makes the world seem real or human, we embrace shit just cause.

Questing: Say you want to do something fun. "Lets Quest!" Then you know there are kobolds just outside, and you've time to do that today between after-work and dinner. So you go out and you kill all the kobolds in the mine. Yay. And you do it the next day and the next day and the next day. Maybe the first dozen you had really sweet roleplayed reasons to do it, but after you played through one narrative, it felt contrived to repeat it. Eventually, you'll just go "yo, lizards?" because it is at least Honest. The world regenerates the kobolds in the mines, that's a REAL event that happens and we're asked to pretend it doesn't. This means there was no consequence for doing it the first time, the second time, or any time following that. Its worse when it doesn't change. Now we can certainly spice this up, and DM spice is meant to break up this singular fact. But where it really counts is when it appears to the inherent logic of the world that your actions actually did something. There are things we can do.

• We should think of questing in ways that tell part of a story, one we can carry one afterwardsâ€"make obvious (advertise) to the DMs and Players (so they have the chance to embrace the color you add).  You are hunting the kobolds because they stole something from you on  the road... and some of these burrows is likely to have it! Tell  everyone what it is, harp on it constantly, make it matter, hunt kobolds  outside the quest! Maybe the kobolds hire the players to do something  for them, something against other humans.

• We should think of quests as an opportunity to have snowballing  consequences. Maybe we're given a choice, and that result of that choice  will come up again. Taking advantage of another PC. Taking a piece of  treasure by force. Pushing someone's buttons. Pushing an agenda despite  opposition. Opposing an action despite what is normally done. Maybe a DM  allows an unexpected choice, maybe that choice changes something or  creates another fun event later.
[/INDENT]2.) Description and Narrative
[INDENT] One of the biggest downsides to persistent questing is the idea of why the conflict is happening. If you have some starving kobolds out living off scraps from a cave... And the humans are storming in to slaughter then for the hell of it, then: THE HUMAN ARE THE EVIL ONES. So if you want to help maintain the idea that the kobolds are tricky evils, you should build a quest into the inherent logic of the world. Then build on that. This is difficult to implement backwards, I am aware. However maintaining a status quo should not be a priority for anyone.

I'm going to continue this example on kobolds. I am going to continue it because I know it wont happen, but it should present the argument well. Lets assume the following bit of information is true: There are many kobolds in and around Sanctuary and they are devious little lizards. That lends some interesting questions, such as, where are they found around sanctuary?

If • Some are enslaved and used as a labor force within some powerful and accepted faction within the city. Such as the Spellguard, maybe they use charms or chains to keep them in line.

Then • Sometimes these kobolds get out of hand and need put down, or sometimes they escape and get into the machine and start fucking things up. Quest opportunities, repeating quests are just a realistic assumption of the sheer quantities of small problems regarding the large population of kobolds creates.

Followup: What if the kobolds menial labor was essential to some function of the city... like the SHIELD? Can Kobold Pcs provide an opportunity or experiments or complicated interaction? Are there reasons not to just kill them all? Are they experimented on? Can PC kobolds be used for experiments? Do the Spellguard Quest to capture more of them? Do the auxiliary quest to clean them out of the machine? How might other factions interact with this dynamic in DIFFERENT ways?

If • Some other kobolds live surrounding the city, in dark corners and little caves. They'd feed mostly on fish and rothe, but are known sometimes to prey on people for food.

Then • The populations come into conflict when their territories cross. Maybe kobolds banditing a merchant route, and a merchant is paying for help to clear the road. Maybe the kobolds nabbed some children and other valuables (like drugs) out of lower and a group needs to raid them to get them back or prevent other important things from going missing (plus raid for drugs). Theme the quests and the monsters around the event in the narrative. Maybe the food resources of the kobolds need conquered to feed a growing population? Quest time. Maybe the food resources conquered need protection from raiding kobolds seeking their land back. Quest time.

Followup: You can continue to build on this by including kobold factions that players can be part of. Maybe a lower kobold-friendly faction that is trying to free their enslaved brethren / combat the spellguard's machine. If the kobolds are REAL and not random monster X Y and Z, then you should be able to have real interactions with them. If they're inherently evil? Sure, make them evil. But just like lawful good doesn't mean lawful stupid, neither does evil mean always uncooperatively stupid and self-destructive.

The above description rests on an inherent complication with the alignment system, monsters, and narrative. We tend to accept a simple gamey description (both players and DMs) and therefore never actually let it be part of a narrative. This could be reapplied to every monster, every faction, and every character. What makes your character tick, how are you part of the world, what do you want, and what do you do to get that. How do people react to you, and how does that inspire your next action. The buck does not stop in this, we're trying to make our pretend world in a real old MMO feel like believable reality, remember?

Point of Fact:

I cannot count the number of times I've been betrayed by an evil monster  at the end of a quest and killed it. Or the number of times a monster  clearly outmatched rushed in to die anyway. Or the number of times a monster watched everything it loved or needed to survive get smashed and did not care. If I kill everyone you ever knew, you should react appropriately. If I killed only one other thing, what if that thing was the monster's son, daughter, wife, enemy. How might he react?

The player characters are suppose to do this anyway, but if you want to see narrative taking place in more places, then bring it into those places inherently.

I've already taken this too far. I'll summarize the point of this: the monsters being part of the narrative and faction interplay is interesting because its complicated. There is no right answer, despite the black/white monster/human relations.
[/INDENT]                    3.) Trust and Consistency
[INDENT] That brings me to my next point. There are many assumptions about the narrative world that is Sanctuary. I've talked to different Dms and gotten drastically different imagery from them. I've talked to different players, and likewise. It is nearly impossible to maintain a narrative illusion if everyone is not seeing the same gameworld.

At some point, you just got to come right out and say it. What benefit does the society killer aberrant in the lowerdark actually have? I mean real "fictional" narrative logic here. What do people think the Spellguard are doing in that tower? How are kobold slaves essential to the inter-workings of the machine? Where does Ysinolde patrol, and how often do they get passed the Orogs and near sanctuary? What is the real risk of loud noises or flashing lights coming from the shield? Do these super intelligent mind flayers really not know about sanctuary? How far away is Lower from Upper really? If it's part of the inherent narrative, it should be known to everyone that is responsible for portraying it accurately.

We had an event some while ago. Someone did something dumb and posted a big sign outside of Sanctuary. And a patrol from the mind-flayers found it, and started looking around. And it was scary for people inside the illusion, but then, someone asked--what about lower? What if this patrol hears all the people and sees all the activity just below? And so they go to warn lower, and if there is a chance, to kill the patrol. These being people that fought the dread daily, doing quests like breaking into Traensyr and actually killing massive siege engines and what have yous. They were butchered just outside the illusion in the in-between. It was assumed they knew they were risking the city to fight an impossible battle, and that it was stupid for them to do that. As it happens, that was not what they expected.

Sometimes, it's not that clear to everyone what the status quo really is. This singular fact can isolate people from plots, and can make faction seems redundant. It can turn interesting groups into people that stand around and wait for direction. You must inspire in people the confidence to act on their own, thus give them the tools and information they need to do this in a believable way.

It is essential to the narrative that we all have a shared image of the world, and that the portrayals / risks / rewards align with our expectations. One of the biggest "reveals" to me as a player in EFUR was that upper sanctuary's law enforcement was not a titan, but a barely held together network that could actually be challenged or changed. (whether that's shared by all the dm team is unknown to me, but it certainly opened my eyes to what shouldve been obvious to a character living there.)

We must communicate to each other with descriptions of what is actually happening. We must trust each other to play following the same rules and with the same expectations. When we lack this trust, and when we lack respect for the narrative or our fellow players/dmsâ€"then we're making it very hard to maintain our world's internal logic.
[/INDENT] 4.) Conflict and the Alternatives
[INDENT]When there is only one way to do something, people will do that one way always. When other options present themselves, they'll still go with the way that's tried and true for them. If you want to prompt creativity, prompt it. Present opportunities and make sure the other players see's them as such.

When you are picking a fight, think about your options. When you are going after a monster, think about if you should be emoting fear. Or curiosity? Play up your character's emotions, pull them from the world and your fellow players. Do things that align with your agenda and emotional state. When everyone is playing the character first, you'll have much more believably stories, and more universally awesome experiences.

When you are creating a character, dont grab a sterotype, dont look at faerun for your group concept. Look at efu. Imagine how the parts fit together, tell your story in a way that makes those parts come alive. When everyone is doing that, when people start colouring the world together, we really will have transcended the limitations of our MMO server.
[/INDENT]

[Damien]

I wrote a post a few days ago regarding this, however it was removed and I was banned due to misunderstanding so I will rephrase.

I don't understand why efu was made to be so slow. While I cannot even muster enough motivation to even quest at low level, where you're forced to repeat the quests over and over not only because they give so little experience but you cripple yourself because of how few supplies there are ig, I understand others can.

But I've realised this isn't even restricted to low levels. From low levels to high levels people are forced to rinse and repeat quests, to meekly survive while gaining the ire of angry dms who kill them because they are questing too much.

What are people meant to do instead? Politics I find tends to just be SIMS rp unless a dm watches, so they are left to explore. Except for the fact due to lack of decent ig supplies and loot you die from exploring, and on top there is very little lore to be found. All incentive to explore has been removed.

Gold is boring. Repeating the same quests is boring. This is literally the main reason most people left a certain server so long ago.

Can we not just do what has happened to nearly every setting? Realise the failings and bump the experience, at the very least. That way I can still explore and not quit my character as soon as I die to beholder rays.

[SatelliteMind]

I think its important to note what that the MMO we are emulating is a specfic kind since its very easy to mistake WoW as the definition of MMOs with the majority of the industry trying to copy it. However, there are MMOs that aren't less focused on grinding peridoic content and more focused on living in the world itself. The most obvious example is EVE where players are essentially free to carve out whatever destiny they wish for themselves whether its being a trader, bounty hunter,or even a CEO of a massive player run corporation. There are quests in EVE but they are not the focus of the game which interaction between players. There is also no leveling system instead players can choose a series of skills to 'train'. This is commonly known as a sandbox MMO and there style is much more condusive to roleplaying because its inherently less geared towards themepark esque playstyles of Wow where you just grind the same quests over and over again to reach level X.

D&D may be prone to behaviors that lead to level grinding but it should be noted that the game Neverwinter Nights was developed by folks who were fans of one of the first MMOs to exist which was Ultima Online that was very much of the sandbox form. There aren't many PWs which have gone for this route the one that I think is the closest is Arelith which is probably the cloesst UO like experience you will get on NwN. There are no DM factions or quests of any sort almost everything everything is player run and they remain one of the servers which see's high numbers despite the age of the game. Now obviously there is a reasons why I don't play Arelith one of them being they have a very lenient death penalty and exborantly high levels but I will praise them in creating an eco system which is essentially non quest dependent.  I am not saying we should become like Arelith, for one our world has an overarching story and a disctinct theme that theirs does not. But I think we should try to find ways to make the server less themepark and more sandbox in a way which fits EfU. Sanctuary's Civil Service is already a good example of this; a faction dedicated to the inner workings of the city  and get players involved with its politics and functions. We need MORE of this not less. In another indie MMO ive played over the years called Face of Mankind missions aka quests are player generated; there are specific pre selected subtypes of missions but it goes back to making the world about the interactions of the players themselves versus with the content. I understand that we currently have a bounty system in place; why not expand a system like that not to just include PC contracts but also on items and creatures. Example; Mad Wizard wants koldbold ears for his expirement which he hopes to perform; he uses the bounty system to do this and than said players while doing a quest that in itself is repetive it is helping accomplish an objective of another PLAYER versus a static NPC. In short focus on making EfU less themepark where you can and dependent on player interaction and goals versus content and you will encourage an atmosphere with more roleplay.

[ZombieSamurai]

Stop paying the players attention, that promote the behaviour you dislike.

[wcsherry]

Gut check time:

1.) EFU has always been vulnerable to falling into a dreaded "MMO State".

2.) As players - you are the guardians of this fragile balance between "amazing RPG world with great quests and player driven plots" and "SILENT MMO GRINDING".

3.) As players - you need to decide what kind of server you want to play on. Do you want to turn this beautiful, 10 year experiment into a shitty diablo clone, or do you want to make it the glorious bastion of creativity and player driven plotting that it is supposed to be?

Questions:

Is grinding to level 8 in a day something you will remember for the next few years?

Is making the same character and build over and over beneficial to your peers?

Is there anything exciting about the most intense power-build around that handily smashes any challenges it comes across?

Choose wisely friends.

Your DM's will serve as your guides to finding "the awesome" but ultimately we need your cooperation to make it happen.

If you've not experienced "the awesome" - you are missing out. EFU is here to make some cherished memories for you guys. Treat it with the love and respect it deserves.

[VanillaPudding]

3.) As players - you need to decide what kind of server you want to play on. Do you want to turn this beautiful, 10 year experiment into a shitty diablo clone, or do you want to make it the glorious bastion of creativity and player driven plotting that it is supposed to be?

Of course we want the latter. I mean, we are playing this and not that, right?

Questions:

Is grinding to level 8 in a day something you will remember for the next few years?

No, but enduring GRINDING to 4-6 and being unable to accomplish anything because of what the setting mechanics have become is something I'd rather FORGET.

Did the previous two settings not PROVE that players (and apparently DMs, if we base things upon population) enjoy being more productive and proactive earlier, and not later? Do we really need to GRIND out our repetitive (see: Dull) introduction to the story? Have we not asked for a "vet portal" for 4-5 years in order to prevent this very issue? Even some of you best roleplayers and former DMs HIGHLY promoted this idea. Does it matter if someone spends an hour sprinting around for level 4 and no supplies, or is just level 4 with no supplies?

The EFUM intro had this just right and it was abandoned!

I DO NOT want to run errands, I DO NOT want to roleplay that I am BRAND NEW to the server -every character-, I DO want to get into the action as protagonist, antagonist, or something otherwise important as fast as possible, however.

Is making the same character and build over and over beneficial to your peers?

Is making us need to "build" so often beneficial to the server? Maybe it's more fun if the expanse directly beyond whatever "shield" (zigg, mist, magical, or otherwise) isn't so dangerous, but more GRADUALLY becomes dangerous? I mean, we do endorse realism right? It's why 1/5 climbers die instantly below level 5 or whatever ( : ) ) We can surely implant the same feeling that we have into people without making it a DICE ROLL every time low levels leave the "sanctuary". The constant low level struggle and lack of supplies only causes more and more spamming as we remain loyal to our story-based concepts  , but sadly we are forced to roll dice in order to allow these role-play based characters live on. The choice is your own, not ours.

Is there anything exciting about the most intense power-build around that handily smashes any challenges it comes across?

1. See above

2. The most any of these builds are smashing are some sahuagin or formians. Last I checked, these things did not threaten the story of EFU, the Dread, or anything else of importance. If we are all here for story, why are you so worried about quest npcs?

Choose wisely friends.

Your DM's will serve as your guides to finding "the awesome" but ultimately we need your cooperation to make it happen.

If you've not experienced "the awesome" - you are missing out. EFU is here to make some cherished memories for you guys. Treat it with the love and respect it deserves.

True, indeed

[Maimed]

I quest because frankly there's either no one interesting to interact with, no one who'd interact with me, or no one my character would interact with. Quests are the impetus that force people together.

[SatelliteMind]

Perhaps inducing a soft level cap would help cut back on the questing some with DM
xp being the only way you could really get beyond whatever the capped level is which would encourage folks to do more than just grind.

[Gear Head]

I think people need to read wcsherry's post, as that's where the truth lies. Why do players need to be encouraged not to grind? If the players bring the story with them then this whole issue is no longer an issue. Waiting for DMs to give you story isn't the way you play EfU. The way to have fun is to tell stories yourself that include other players, and allow your character to be affected by their stories. When players are doing that then the DMs are eager to supplement and enable these stories, and the rest just falls into place.

What we should be doing, instead of telling others what they should do, is examining our own play habits and looking to better EfU through our own play, not waiting for someone else to fix things. This isn't to say that maybe some systems couldn't change to help, but the solution starts with how we look at and play EfU.

[SatelliteMind]

Fair point, however I am of the belief that structural design of a game world conditions how players will act in it. WoW is designed for players to grind and its hard to do anything else in it. So in addition to players looking at their own behavior I think its important to ask what game systems could be changed to facilitate player interaction versus content?

[domare]

I actually took the time to read over every post in this forum and am again amazed/humbled by all the excellent points and perspectives offered.  All were excellent, however I –especially- concur with the posts by VanillaPudding, PanamaLane, and SN.  Their comments would do much to curtail the negative trends Ladocicea outlined.

A brief point I would make, in addition to what has been relayed by VanillaPudding, PanamaLane, and SN., I would like to raise a point about the feel of the server currently that may aid in reducing the creation of boring or powergaming characters.  With Dendar and the Dread conquering GODS and majority of FAERUN, the feel of Upper Sanctuary is way too secure and comfortable.  Shouldn't there be a more desperate feel that all living creatures (who are not thralls) are commodities that should be used to either secure Sanctuary and/or leverage in the War against the Dread?[/u]  Rather than PCs fully FDing players at the initial stages of conflict, shouldn't they think “what can I use you for?”  or “How will the forfeit of your life contribute my safety or interests, the security of Sanctuary, or some manner of victor against the Dread Threat?”

You step out of line…you will find your ass conscripted serving exiled time as an "Oathsworn" in some austere and hostle post, shoveling shite out of Rothe and Dung Pits, shackled and confined to hard labor, serve as a living cadaver for experimentation by Spellguard pertaining to Illithid devices, shackled to some room within the Machine to defend it for your life, and feed on rats, or otherwise doing something that furthers the cause of being able to exist.

When players feel to comfortable or secure, they get bored and do the scripted quest crushing.  Their boredom stifles their creativity to develop epic ideas, movements, and plots.  This is something that the Players can contribute towards, with minimal aid from the DM Team.

[SatelliteMind]

CoA had something called the penal legion at one point which was essentially a group of conscripted criminals who chose mandatory service instead of jail time. This is something that could work in EfU well and I think creative punishments like these should be phased out. I don't know the server still does this but in EfuM Mistlocke felt vulnerable not just because there was no shield but also because the town would be subject to sporadic raids. If Efu R still has these than perhaps upping the intensity of these could really jolt people out of the sense of complacey that they have reminding them that they are literally sorrounded by a number of powers that want to eat them alive.

[Unethical]

Regarding the safety of the shield:
When something is too good to be true, it is usually a trap. And given the way Sanctuary is structured, it would be implausible for the Dread Empire not to know it exists. The real questions should be:

Why haven't they attacked yet? What are they getting from letting Sanctuary be?