The MMOisation of EFU

[Tala]

Wasn't sure at first I want to write something, but here goes, I guess:

Taking only 1 level of rogue, barbarian, bard or sorcerer in a manner that is extremely convenient for your build. While this is not against the rules it is cheese, especially if there is NO conceptual rationalisation for doing this, and with astounding regularity (every single case) I have found that there is no discernible IC reason for doing so.

To be honest, I was sure I saw a rule regarding not multi-classing and taking only 1 or 2 levels in another class, but it turns out I was wrong (I guess it was on another forum I looked at or something). But I don't see a reason why there shouldn't be a rule regarding that. To be a warrior who is able to just use wands and scrolls because you took a level of bard/rogue for UMD or a sorcerer to gain access to arcane spells and it really doesn't fit the build or the PC, yeah, that's lame.

So maybe (if it's desired) make such a rule, and of course, if one wishes to take such a level in another class for flavor or because it fits the character, he can go over it with a DM / app for it?

Obtaining level 7 under 24 hours, and level 8 shortly thereafter (yes, it happens).

This usually happens, from what I've seen, when new arrival PCs tag along to the high level quest trains straight away. And the high level PCs just take them, because "whatever" or "need to level up that PC so he can be more use in the future" and of course "Oh, it's XXX player, he's cool, yes". And high level quests will reward an absurd amount of XP to those low level PCs.

I hate this kind of behavior, and even more, I hate that it's in the status quo now. But I can't really blame people in doing this as being low level is more likely less fun, and delivery/starter quests/grinding worms/solo quests can be really boring.

Also, I've witnessed people boasting how fast they level up on #EFU like it's some sort of achievement. It's not and even more, it's annoying. People should probably stop that.

Doing the same quest every reset/tirelessly grinding with no real purpose.

Well, I'll be honest, EfU quests are awesome, and some more than others. I don't think it's quite fair to say "no real purpose" if someone is having fun doing that quest, and if someone isn't getting bored from doing that reset after reset, good for him, I guess.

But regarding "grinding quests" I've witnessed two phenomenons:

• The "Upper Quest Trains" does seem from time to time being only on getting XP and gold and hoard hoard hoard items and consumables until that dangerous DM event or that PVP which might come along the way, and for that, people prefer to be the best. And they don't do anything more than the quests as well when they're playing.
  
  There are players who try to do something different, whether it's just explorations and focusing on the pacification campaigns, or even something more social like a concert (as quirky as NWN can be with some sort of thing) or a "Dating Auction" (I hope EfU can forgive me for doing such a thing >_>) but those things can only be fun and enjoyable if many PCs are involved. Most of the times, they yield no items/consumables, so the questing PCs don't really find any reason in participating, and will just go on another scripted quest that will provide them with more XP and GP.
  
  I'm not sure when, but until a few months ago, I think the level of involvement on the DM side in stuff like exploring for the sake of exploring, pacification campaign, social events was pretty large, but now I, personally, hardly feel it.
  
  
  
  
• The Lower Quest Trains: Lower tends to be the basing ground of most antagonist/villainous groups, and most of them focus on PvP, which is fine. But it sometimes feel like those groups grind quests in order to get better supplies and stand a chance against the main hub.
  
  I used to dislike it, but really, if those groups lose to the main hub, they'll most likely be executed or killed. I still don't like the grinding quests aspect, but if it helps in giving them a better chance to create more conflict, then I really can't complain. Most, if not all of those groups this chapter have been really classy, and while getting robbed by them, or losing to them in PvP can suck, they rarely turn to FD unless it helps the story.
  
  While Lower isn't really a place for lairs, I do think those groups that prove themselves (and the concept allows) should get one. It will provide with a base, and also resource gathering, which will replace the questing.
  

There's been some sort of "blame" on "new players to EfU" in this thread. But really, in terms like "grinding quests", vets do this the same as new players, there's really no difference here. Those who prefer to quest do that.

BUT, what I do think, is that being a new player to EfU is hard! Not only the settings on the Death penalties and the mechanics, but really, a sort of understanding what to do and how to contribute to the story in an interesting way. I really don't want to insult anyone, but recently, I had the feeling, that came mostly from new players, that they try to "win EfU", and the way they did that, was ignoring any sort of conflict and getting in positions IC that they could just block other PCs from trying to create conflict or doing things that, might upset the balance of friendship in Upper. (Talking mostly on Upper Factions here)

It got really frustrating to try to do anything, not because we would fail, mostly because we were simply ignored, and that is really the worst thing that could happen. I'm not saying people do that out of OOC issues or in purpose, but rather, it's really the best way they could think of.

This is really my personal feeling about it, and I think maybe the more experienced players in the same faction can help them adjust and offer advice, both OOC or IC.

Also, I think it took my a year to even slightly understand how to do interesting things in EfU and I'm still learning. New players like Abala and Moonlighter who just went in and put the server on fire (In the best way ever) are a rarity, so a good advice I can give new players is, be a supporter character at first. I learned a lot from just joining experienced players like Bonhomie, El_G and Blue41.


Sorry from glitching from the main topics of the discussion and probably repeating things that were said before.

[PanamaLane]

I actually read through all of these posts (don't ask me why) and thought to add a few more thoughts/suggestions.

Firstly, I want to point out when I mentioned "newer" players it was not as any sort of attempt or knock them. Instead, I feel its important to remember that new players and returning vets alike are coming from other games with MMO type reward systems. They land in EFU, they see NPC quest givers, xp, gold, supply benefits from continuing that style of play. Hence, they continue to do it. Its not really their fault and its sort of on all of us to show them how its better when the MMO styles are left in the trash. Still its hard as PC to bring this up to another player, and more often then not, -showing- them is more effective. Otherwise, what does it matter to them when your PC who does nothing but political backroom deals ends up in PvP with theirs and they crush because of a superior build with superior supply? Looks like MMO wins.

Now then, a couple of suggestions which I hope don't sound to "in my day"

On NPCs

NPCs should be more then quest givers. Early on in my EFU experience, I would often send dm messages like, "Hey, I'd like to talk to such and such NPC." Then it would happen. After awhile this kind of thing sort of stopped. NPCs for the most part fell into the shadowy backgrounds. Sure, Gould is pulling the strings, but you won't get an invitation.

I think NPCs that hold certain notoriety should be more active in the lives of the PCs who align with them. NPCs can help characters create and realize goals beyond fetch my assistant down the well. I can tell you that a five minute conversation with an NPC for a new player who is used to just click on X for quest, can be eye opening to that player. It shows them that those long term, plot driven goals that NPCs have are more important then the grind and potentially can lead to my second point which is...

loot!

Earlier on in the discussion I mentioned rewarding players who have weaknesses etc, but I will admit that was poorly worded on my part. You don't reward weakness. You reward players [who play out their] weaknesses. Just a hypothetical here, maybe you have 8wis because you were never taught to speak proper common. In game, you make this clear in the way you struggle to express yourself and you seek out to better yourself getting lessons from other PCs actively. Bam! Here is some flavored loot, a decoder ring which gives you +2wis. Does nothing for your mechanics, everything for your story. Maybe you are a 8cha dwarf who loves to fart and despite complaints, thinks its funny and does it more. Bam! Here is a "fart trumpet" iron horn 3/day. This goes both ways too. Those players who don't play them out could get cursed items. How about a dunce cap from shagga which makes their 20str 8wis barb only as strong as he is wise for a day (until next reset). You bet that player would be RPing about how weak they felt with the cap on, and it serves as a subtle reminder.

Players in general, and especially those that come from MMO, often connect to their PCs through the loot they've earned. When its everyday drops, it becomes about who has the most quantity. When its a reward, or a punishment told through the story of a unique item, its a reminder about why EFU is about quality.

[Kandebyn Olar]

I didn't read the whole thread so sry if I'm repeating someone else's thoughts.
 
But I saw in the first page a lot of blame put on the players and to be quite frank, I say you couldn't be further from the truth. It's DEFINITLY NOT a new player issue. Look up the forums, here and on CoA and you'll see similar threads have been popping up over the past what... 10 years?
 
You can't blame players from powerbuilding. Gimping your character for the sake of RP is cool and all that, but let's face it, a lot of worthless feat or uneven attributes are only flashy to the most investigative DM. The other players don't see your stat sheets and the NPC don't care if you got Thug or Silver Palm feats, its a game in which you die if your HPs go down and your AC is too low.
 
So not only your get your ass beat in PvM, but a lot of conflicts PvP end up with a fight. For every player with a gimp build who get some assistance from a benevolent DM, how many gimped characters will get none of it?
 
Grinding is part of the game. It's even part of RP. Why would an adventurer stick in the middle of the streets wasting time talking trash about the local lord or whatever, and not get his purse fuller? If in real life you could drink a healing potion everytime you get hurt, I bet we'd have more people doing extreme sports and wild adventures.
 
You'll never stop grinding for loot and xp in this game unless dramatic changes are made. IE; Removing consumables/max level 2 everybody. And then you'll have other problems, what are people going to do?

[Haer Dalis 83]

I see too many people justifying xp and consumable grinding with pvp. Pvp is much more that just "fighting", and losing a fight is frequently an equally valid outcome than winning to foster one's story, and even more frequently leads to a spot where the character's life is given a new dimension. It's acceptable not to want to lose, but it's not a valid justification.

Nor is preparing for the next big DM event a valid reason for grinding. I personally don't think the high-level-fully-looted-basically-min-maxed character that can charge into wave after wave of monsters to be any cool or badass, simply because he faces no risks at all in doing so. The character/player who stays in character despite the consequences, the character/player who is not afraid to play his concept no matter the outcome, that's badass.

Quests are amazing, and it is totally legit to simply log in and do one after another until you knock yourself out, but if you find yourself wondering what to do when DM activity is low, when there are currently no plots, try doing this: ROLEPLAY.
Come up with a story instead of just a character and try to tell that very story. Interact with other characters, build meaningful relationships, introduce others to your deeply thought-out concept as they do the same with you. I'm pretty sure that if you find yourself spending hours speaking with other characters, discussing with them, working beyond and before the curtains, you'll have very little time or drive to grind quest after quest and amass meaningless consumables.

[efuincarnate]

I didn't read the whole thread so sry if I'm repeating someone else's thoughts.
 
But I saw in the first page a lot of blame put on the players and to be quite frank, I say you couldn't be further from the truth. It's DEFINITLY NOT a new player issue. Look up the forums, here and on CoA and you'll see similar threads have been popping up over the past what... 10 years?
 
You can't blame players from powerbuilding. Gimping your character for the sake of RP is cool and all that, but let's face it, a lot of worthless feat or uneven attributes are only flashy to the most investigative DM. The other players don't see your stat sheets and the NPC don't care if you got Thug or Silver Palm feats, its a game in which you die if your HPs go down and your AC is too low.
 
So not only your get your ass beat in PvM, but a lot of conflicts PvP end up with a fight. For every player with a gimp build who get some assistance from a benevolent DM, how many gimped characters will get none of it?
 
Grinding is part of the game. It's even part of RP. Why would an adventurer stick in the middle of the streets wasting time talking trash about the local lord or whatever, and not get his purse fuller? If in real life you could drink a healing potion everytime you get hurt, I bet we'd have more people doing extreme sports and wild adventures.
 
You'll never stop grinding for loot and xp in this game unless dramatic changes are made. IE; Removing consumables/max level 2 everybody. And then you'll have other problems, what are people going to do?

http://www.efupw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81338

[Kandebyn Olar]

So what's your solution? You can't force folks to play gimp builds and not try to win fights.
 
Of course PvP is more than fighting. But I don't think I'm wrong when I say a whole lot of PvP ends up with one character losing a fight. I'm not trying to justify anything. Although I don't think we'll ever see change if we just criticize players for doing what they obviously think they need to do to succeed and/or have fun.
 
Everybody knows what RP is. It's playing your role, and if your role is crushing orcs and goblins and taking their loot is your role, do it. Players spending 5 hours an evening talking in taverns about who's god is best or scheming about assassinating the king ain't better roleplayers.

[Kandebyn Olar]

http://www.efupw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81338

I agree with Howlands' post you linked. But I don't think lecturing players will do. I think we need to look at the source of the ''problem'' if there's such thing and maybe correct what's wrong, what's causing that kind of playstyle.

[prestonhunt]

Tl:dr

It's a game.

You play games to have fun.

If you are not having fun because someone else has imposed some standard on you that you must play by, then you are doing something wrong.

In short, all the feedback posted here is great and all, but the dms set the rules and uphold the standards and each Dm has his own opinion on how things should be done.  Until something makes its way into the official rules post, it should probably be taken as a guideline; a blueprint that will see you find favor with a particular Dm or small selection of dms.

If you don't like a guideline and don't care about the favor of the aforementioned sampling of Dms, keep playing how you enjoy playing, I say. Just don't wonder aloud why they take no interest in your character or plots.

If you don't like a rule, efu probably isn't for you.

Everything else is just a bunch of typing that isn't getting read.

[Reylathi]

I don't think a lot of good will come from trying to stifle the conversation.

EfU is not a democracy, and nor should it be. But I don't think it's entirely fair to put everything onto the DMs shoulders and just shrug away attempts by players to analyze the situation. I understand that it's critical for the DMs and players to maintain a certain degree of separation, but the fact remains that this thread cracked open a lot of things that people (obviously) wanted to talk about. So let them. If the DMs wanted us to pipe down, they would have asked us to or locked the thread.

In the meanwhile, I like to think that some really cool new ideas might come out of this to make the game easier on DM nerves and more fun for everyone. Every once in awhile you need to have a meta-conversation, you know? It's good for your stress levels.

[Wild Card]

As someone said above grinding is an inevitable nature of the game, however I think that being said there is always room for improvement when it comes to the activities for which you get XP and gold. Instead of repeating the same quests over and over again maybe add more activities which feel like your having an impact on the world. Here's an example; caravans through the underdark to outposts which deliver supplies. Player's are tasked with delivering these supplies and defending them from attack. Should they be sucesssful Sanctuary as a whole will recieve gold which than can be treated as "resources" which can be used for political ends. Or a bounty system which has a different monster every month which encourages players to go out in groups to look for it. More dynamic content like the examples here make the game feel less mmoish and quest grindy because it makes players feel like they are actually doing something which has an impact on the world.

[Tratzell]

I like to play pretend in videos game. :)

[Halfbrood]

I think the main point here should be that the main focus of EfU is a series of player driven (and DM supported) storylines. We provide the stage, what is lacking at the minute (though it certainly isn't non existent) are dynamic player characters. You say it is the fault of the system - and yet the fundamental concept of the system remains unchanged, and in the past people have still managed to tell awesome stories. You say it is the DMs and perhaps in part we can be blamed, but only because we have rewarded people that are acting completely contrary to the point of EFU.

No fancy systems will ever change the fact that EFU is a story. And no one has said that questing is bad. I enjoy it a lot. What is bad, and in fact I'd go so far as to say its fucking terrible, is that people ignore that EFU is about the story and turn it into some PVP I must win every interaction instead of focusing on the fact that this is a collaborative storyline and none of us are a main character.

[Damien]

Please let me start at level five. Low level is so dull and boring that I can't even handle the two hours of solo questing it requires to get there.

Thanks

[Random_White_Guy]

As a small project I've been monitoring IC interactions and further since this post started from a more spectator perspective. Over the last five days there's been a noticeable shift in cool little gestures.

I've witnessed six PC's sitting around the Grotto talking about war stories in which they had traveled the Underdark discussing their best kill, which inspired me to start asking other people on the street what their best kill was.

I watched three people in Freedom Square get approached by someone asking what a lightstone was and one of the group  said "I've got a fair few if you want to see some more" and head into the House of Knowledge to observe them.

I witnessed two wizards during a scroll exchange, one PC which was fairly new to the character asking some very basic questions about the best way to use certain spells and the other wizard was sharing the information. After a while and not recognizing the account I sent a tell offering to help the PC get involved in anything or if they wanted any help getting a feel for things and they just said "Nah, not new, just playing a proper apprentice on an alt account :) " and they went on to have what seemed like a 30 minute conversation about the proper tactical usage of first circle evocations despite them being pretty weak compared to stronger spells.

A PC buying people food and drinks at the Grotto to come and make plans and just chat with him about upcoming jobs and potential research opportunities if they came and answered his sendings about potential work.

There's more examples but I don't want a ramble-post. It's easy to get caught up in the grueling situational problems but it's little gestures and encounters like that which make me really enjoy EFU and I feel like it's contagious.

The final thing I'll say is if you see things like this that you think are really fun or neat interactions don't be afraid to send a tell informing the PC that you enjoyed seeing it, that it was cool, etc. PC efforts of a smaller nature are often overlooked and ignored. Even if someone makes a really cool sending and just tries to break away from the normal algorithm of "Greetings Sanctuary I have and and we are seeking to go and //level to level".

If I see someone bringing their A+ game it makes me want to step things up more. It just makes the server feel more lively and fun.

Happy Holidays EFU.

[Kandebyn Olar]

I think the main point here should be that the main focus of EfU is a series of player driven (and DM supported) storylines. We provide the stage, what is lacking at the minute (though it certainly isn't non existent) are dynamic player characters. You say it is the fault of the system - and yet the fundamental concept of the system remains unchanged, and in the past people have still managed to tell awesome stories. You say it is the DMs and perhaps in part we can be blamed, but only because we have rewarded people that are acting completely contrary to the point of EFU.
 
No fancy systems will ever change the fact that EFU is a story. And no one has said that questing is bad. I enjoy it a lot. What is bad, and in fact I'd go so far as to say its fucking terrible, is that people ignore that EFU is about the story and turn it into some PVP I must win every interaction instead of focusing on the fact that this is a collaborative storyline and none of us are a main character.

I don't like blaming the DMs or the players. But I think players play a certain way for a reason and simply telling them what to do and what not to do is not going to work. You can't reward a playstyle then tell everyone not to play that way.
 
An other thing, which might be related. It's that there's not a wide variety of games you can RP on. So players who enjoy some stuff about EFU might play on EFU even thought they dislike other aspects of the server. I know that's my case. If I hated everything about EFU I wouldn't be here. But I can't say I like every rule and everything, it's just that I don't find that many competition out there.
 
Basically that's it for my opinion. I expect the same thread to pop up in 6 months or so.