FDing your Enemies

[Hound]

As a foreword, I haven't been FDed so this isn't some vindictive complaint on my part or whatever.



I know as well as the next guy that it feels nice to win and put an end to your enemies. But seriously, I think people need to chill out on FDing their antagonists - even monstrous ones.

Just because the rules say you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do it. People are only going to play antagonists and villains as long as it is fulfilling and entertaining to do so; if players feel as though they can barely stick their head out of the ground before a mass of angry heroes come to crack their skull open, I can't see how it can be an appealing prospect for anyone. Whilst I appreciate that ICly it makes sense to cull your enemies while they're weak, it leaves for a very dull and static meta in the long-term that I don't think is very healthy for EFU.

I've seen more than one compelling villain beat down and killed on first contact with someone they've never met before on nebulous justifications and honestly its not doing anyone any favours. Sure, your hero is now a badass in the short-term for killing the nasty monster, but now you're just sat around in the Square waiting for a DM to provide an enemy for you - instead of being able to have gone out to try and fight that monster, who - because you let them live - was able to gather their strength, make some allies and provide a genuinely threatening and interesting enemy to the main playerbase.

Stories are boring without conflict. We should do our best OOCly to foster it, perhaps at the expense of IC plausability now and then. It isn't that hard to justify letting someone live, no matter how passionate or zealous your PC is - I can guarantee you that you'll have a better time in the long run by letting your rivalries blossom instead of nipping them in the bud.

Keep in mind that being a villain is pretty damn hard in EFU. I always try to cut notorious people some slack if I ever get a one-up on them, since I'm aware that they have a lot more problems on their plate than just me attacking them, while I've only got them to worry about.

Victory is like a fine wine - its taste improves with age. The longer you let that villain mess with you, the sweeter their downfall will be in the end.


Here's a good rule of thumb in my opinion: If you beat them easily, let them live. If you were able to overcome them without much difficulty then they're clearly not a threat and they're not a challenging antagonist yet, so let them grow and come into their own.

[putrid_plum]

I agree here.  Can do doesn't mean should do!  Rock on and make a cool story and fun for everyone!

[HalflingPower]

I do not agree.

As someone who has played many villainous PC's here on EFU I can say a good part of the excitement comes from knowing that if you lose once your dead. Being a villain takes a lot of dedication and planning and you should expect 0 coddling, they are also very fun but definitely something you should plan with your friends. 5v20 is much more fun than 1v20.

That goes double for monstrous PC's, because they are 'monsters' - I find it strange that a large amount of players are over all 'accepting' of monstrous PC's and don't even seem taken aback by their monstrous forms. Even half orcs are generally despised by most humans.

OOC courtesy is something villain's and monster's show their victim's and does not in any way have to go the other way.

Don't want to die? Beg for your life, its a good tactic and I have never seen someone not give some one who was begging a way out.

[Hound]

I do not agree.
Don't want to die? Beg for your life, its a good tactic and I have never seen someone not give some one who was begging a way out.

Then our experiences differ massively. I've never seen this happen.

[Random_White_Guy]

As someone who has been FD'd an awful lot for various reasons I want to come out and say that EFU:R is the most cupcake chapters of EFU in regards to this situation. I'm not saying that it is a bad thing by any means but at the same time there is a degree of appropriateness.

While you guys make a fair point about the situation of heroes jump-gunning and trying to take out villains as soon as possible and it's fun to have that 1vs20 gambit, the alternative needs to be stepped up further in my opinion. Evil is evil. You're allowed to jump-gun the heroes just as much.

If the concern is individuals being too severe to villains my advice would be that everyone should play a villain themselves. And I don't mean a "Haw haw I am villain" sort of individual I mean a bandit, a monster, an assassin, a necromancer, a demon worshiper. There's an entirely new side of the server you see and it potentially makes you mature very swiftly as both a roleplayer and character developer.

Equally if there is a concern individuals are being too severe to villains it's okay to take the Kid-Gloves off. There was a time a few months ago where you would see people with just unerring bravado thinking that all was well and fine because they'd just get kidnapped, ransomed, and thrown back into the pond. That they could do as they please because people wouldn't FD on first encounter. That as individual fighting villains there was a means and way in which they knew the game was tilted in their favor.

Villains tend to be more experienced EFUers and on the whole have a greater expectations of Gamesmanship and notions of PvP karma and similar. Also people have difficulties separating IC and OOC angst over villains leading to countless situations of drama and similar in IRC and Forum hatred. This leads the players of villain PCs to place story over conflict and at the same time tend to use kiddy gloves in pursuit of their goals.

However-

Two of my favorite examples in trying to give new people playing villains is I link them these two clips:

2nd most important: Pirate

1st most important: Presentation

If you're playing a Cut-throat mercenary. If you're playing a Cyricist Bandit. If you're playing an LE Banite hell-bent on acquiring power by any means within his dogmatic method. If you're playing a maddened cultist. If you're playing a serial-killer who murders everyone with Blonde Hair. If you're playing a Gang Leader and some PC has just entered your turf and disrespected you or your men.

It's Okay to pike some heads early. Particularly if you yourself are early into your career. You're the Bad Guy (NSFW due to language)
"You need people like me so you can point your fingers and say 'that's the bad guy'. So what that make you. Good?"

So long as you do it to a level of presentation, story advancement, and remembering that you're supposed to be the Pirate who cheats and steals and brings terror FDing early is acceptable to keep the populace at large on their toes, with someone to chase, and keeps the server interesting. It's hard for many of us PCs on EFU to portray fear but let me tell you that if people are afraid to lose their PC to your villain and you're not afraid to pike a few heads that creates a villain dichotomy very swiftly. While it also increases the odds you'll find yourself staring down the barrel of an angry mob it also brings a villain's full status, so long as it is IC for your character to do.

TL;DR: Sure the at large EFU community could do with cutting villains some breaks but sometimes villains need to take and make those breaks. I'd be perfectly fine with seeing an EFU in which villain PCs increased the degree to which they piked heads to give the at large community pause before picking fights or even killing criminal/evil foes. They put one of yours in the hospital you put one of theirs in the morgue. It's the Chicago way.

[Kinslayer988]

An amazing way to cover it RwG. I can say that I love playing monsters and villains. A sense of adrenaline is always welcome.

What I will ask: If you have a full DM loot level 9 PC you should have better things to do than kill a few level 3-5 villains. Play tricks, harass, or annoy the villain for sure, but it was absolutely annoying to be one shot at level 4 and put up for execution.

[Paha]

If you do something to earn execution by law, or go against someone, level or the lifespan of the character does not matter. Actions and consequences. Sometimes they go hand in hand, sometimes it's thrown upside-down, and may be unfair even.

Case by case, there is no one answer. People just need to learn to think "What is the most fun for me, what can be more interesting. If I kill this guy now, do I have any enemies? Will I actually end up bored? If I let this guy live, he will kill me next time, ok. If I kill him, I can create name for myself and build up on it, maybe?" There's many things anyone can consider.

There is not a single possible way to please everyone. This is the truth.

[Knight Of Pentacles]

I disagree completely that villains and monsters HAVE to show courtesy to their enemies.  There's often just as much "in game" reason to kill the 'protagonists' and 'anti-heroes' as there are for them to kill the villain.  Sadly people have come to expect that when they face the current server "big bad" that they'll get away unscathed because of the courtesy code.  

This might be true for players who've shown courtesy to others in the past or have a compelling story.  But I think villains should be prone to executing the dull, boring, in-it-to-win-it characters whose players have a history if discourtesy, when they're defeated. Even if it's on the first defeat.  Courtesy is a karmic, unwritten code that every one should be keeping in mind no matter what side they're on.

[Ladocicea]

Back in the day I was in favour of a system where you'd beat someone down and have an OOC gentlemen's agreement that hostilities were concluded for the foreseeable future with your aggressor, so no stupid sneaking revenge FD gank on someone that's been merciful.

Seems nobody cares much for about idea though, preferring everything to be motivated purely by IC considerations. I hear "Just do what your character will do and I'll do what my character will do" a lot. In that case, yes, I'm going to quickly FD you because who realistically would let someone you've just beaten, humiliated and potentially robbed, walk off into the night with a massive axe to grind?

[LiAlH4]

Sometimes in a fantasy world like this one, people just have to die.  BUT, my suggestion is to always try to give other players the benefit of  the doubt, remember that building up conflict increases the tension of  the dynamic between characters, increases the prestige of the characters  involved, and generally has a positive impact on the setting.

Unless,  however, your foe happens to be an overtly-monstrous subrace: goblins,  hobgoblins, gnolls, ogres, and so on. Were I playing one of these, I  would expect to die on the very first loss in PVP, unless I had some ace  in the hole to work with. Situations involving Duergar, Drow,  Svirfneblin, and the like also lend themselves to simple, clear,  entirely justified FDs by those victorious over them, but I would  personally be less inclined to kill one of these on the first meeting.

Do you want to survive? Do what would be entirely natural - beg, offer deals, offer money, offer potions, offer favors, promise never to come after your opponent again, offer them secret knowledge, and so on.

FD is ultimately a part of the game. It is important that the emotions surrounding it stay in the game, as grudges spanning the lives of many characters and the like are not tolerated.

[Reylathi]

There's another way to handle it--just don't fight your hardest and then  botch the pursuit. If the poor thing is obviously overmatched, just avoid  stunning effects or anything that would prevent them from fleeing, and  then when they do flee, botch the pursuit a little bit by chasing  manually with the keyboard and not doing that great of a job with it.

If  they never fall, I don't have to worry about breaking character to let  them live. I get to go back to the shield, talk about the fight and how I  "almost had them", they get to live to mug people another day. Everyone  wins, it works great.

[MaimedGod]

The fact that courtesy is this unwritten and vague code that no one can seem to agree on completely is probably why there are so many arguments about it, and probably why these sorts of threads come along every few months. But I would say, in general, it tends to work for EFU and that's what matters.

Frankly, I don't think there is actually a "right" thing to do, or a "right" way to play a villain or a hero. When I played a villain, I spared just about everyone that I subdued. Is that a valid way to play a villain? Yeah, it totally was! I was looking to prolong whatever conflict I had with this motley band of heroes, and I think the server was ultimately better off for it, rather than some massive purge of PCs that had the misfortune of being mechanically weaker than me.

I do tend to think that villains play by a different set of rules than heroes do. I think there is an expectation and a burden on villain PCs to be "better" than heroes when it comes to courtesy and subdual- which, yes, does lead to some weird situations where villains are more merciful than heroes, but I think that this is ultimately okay and something that can easily be hand-waved away for the sake of a better story. Villains, at the end of the day, wind up having a lot more people at their feet than heroes do, and if every one of these ended in FD, the server would be a much different and (probably worse) place.

Everyone has stories they can tell of that one moment where a hero did something really shitty from an OOC perspective (wordless FDs, etc). You just have to deal with that kind of thing as a villain PC - it really isn't for everyone. I for one, however, enjoy the way it all works, complete with all the quirks, the excitement, and the devastating disappointment, and eagerly look forward to my next!

One last note... I think it's important that people realize that "just doing what's IC" isn't really a valid way of handling this kind of stuff, in my opinion at least. From what I've been able to determine, EFU is, ultimately, a collective storytelling experience moreso than it is a "roleplay server". It is easy, extremely so, to stretch your character a bit to make the overall story better, and I have done so countless times.

[Kinslayer988]

After reading through this thread I agree in thinking about how it will change the game world and those around it.

[VanillaPudding]

EFU:R is the most cupcake chapters of EFU

level or the lifespan of the character does not matter. Actions and consequences. Sometimes they go hand in hand

I do tend to think that villains play by a different set of rules than heroes do. I think there is an expectation and a burden on villain PCs to be "better" than heroes when it comes to courtesy and subdual

These three things are all that need to be said concerning this topic I think. I play villains and antagonists almost exclusively and I do feel that I play by a different set of rules than -most- players. In fact, I've probably had more private discussions about being too lenient than anything else, and I am completely fine with that and believe that my peers among the villainous crowd are too.  However, that does not mean that if you come to end our character's life or thwart their entire agenda, especially in some large group that has a massive advantage (ICly AND oocly), that you will not pay the penalty for those IC actions. We are not bound to some alternate code, we simply choose it because it is more classy. We are also a chaotic lot, so take it as you will ;)

[SN]

One last note... I think it's important that people realize that "just doing what's IC" isn't really a valid way of handling this kind of stuff, in my opinion at least. From what I've been able to determine, EFU is, ultimately, a collective storytelling experience moreso than it is a "roleplay server". It is easy, extremely so, to stretch your character a bit to make the overall story better, and I have done so countless times.

This.