I'd like to offer an alternative

[Tala]

Hi!

A lot of PVP incidents lately and I'd like to raise a sort of issue. It's not really an issue, just a reminder that PVP can lead to really cool stuff instead of "more PVP". I just hope this thing doesn't turn into one of those many threads we had in the past about players saying what's fair / pointing out specific incidents so I just ask the DMs to lock this thread if it does.

I by no means say how people should play their PCs, as they know their own PCs better than anyone else (Yes, contrary to IRC belief that people tell others how to play their characters). I noticed that most of the time PVP leads to a pretty linear route ---> more PVP. It's not a bad thing, and it is certainly fun for a lot of people, but it just feels like people are keen on "Winning", and the easiest way is to win a PVP. The linear path I'm talking about is: There's a PVP, and of course, one side loses. Then the losing get their allies or make it their purpose in life to get the ones who beat them. Again, it's not a bad thing, but sometimes it just feels more OOC thing of "winning" than IC.

My alternative is this: Breathe for a moment and think "Wow, my PC almost died there, is he the type to hunt the bastards down or is he deeply affected by that encounter? Am I going to just roam the wilds until I find them, or maybe I'll send an assassin/hire a group of mercs to deal with them?" and so so so many more things one can think of.

I'll take the Vandals as an example, as with their combinations of classy RP and the fact that they were the scariest group we had in this chapter (Ogre + Outsiders + Orcs = Scary). They constantly beat/humiliated/subdued their attackers or their prey (If even half of the things written in the IC forums are correct). They enslaved / killed PCs, yet, all the things I heard about them IG from others was mostly "Let's go hunt them". I didn't hear any Fat Bob goes: "I don't know Slim Jim, they sounds real dangerous, probably shouldn't go after them."

I think it's already known, but my level in PVP is mediocre at best (I probably give myself way too much credit here), so I lose a lot. I usually don't go after the ones who beat me, but I take the loss as something more personal, something that can make my PC evolve to being even better, make him even more meaningful, adding aspects of fear / paranoids / new feelings. Some people do that, but most just shrug it off and go questing or seeking new risks, even if their PCs nearly died five minutes ago, or saw ones who were just with them ten minutes ago die in a horrible way.

I don't play "hero" PCs, because they bore me, but even heroes face inner struggles and not just going fighting monsters all day. The story makes the hero and not the number of times he was beaten and bravely shrugged it off. Of course that playing the "anti-hero" or the "coward" is sometimes more interesting than the heroes.

Again, this is by no means a post to tell people how to play. Just proposing an alternative beyond "He beat me I beat him back". Everybody wants to be the winner, but by losing (and hopefully, surviving) one can gain much more than if he won.

Cheers

[Kandebyn Olar]

I don't know what you're talking about? Your alternative is to avoid going back after the guy that just kicked your butt and threatened to send you straight up to the fugue plane?
 
People know it's rather silly. But they do it anyway, because even though some people say otherwise, violence solves a lot of problems. How much diplomacy you wanna do with ISIS and Kim Jong-Un?
 
I also get bored of watching James Bond movies where James is all tied up, could be shot right there, but somehow, they give him a way to escape, just to make things interesting... Sure, might make a better movie, and people giving other people's PC chances after chances, is not what I call roleplay, personally.
 
For all I care, I'd remove all the PVP rules, everybody get a free pass, license to kill completly pacific PCs. My beef is when people argue about earning the right to PK, dude 1 earned it, dude 2 did not, he's now pissed because he thinks he did and went ahead and commited the killing.
 
That's BS imo. Anyway, nothing's perfect and the rules are the rules.

[iki]

This issue in general is probably best served by remaining aware that OOC feelings (stung post-PvP pride, suspicions opponents cheated, etc etc) seeping overly much into IC responses to gameworld events usually ends terribly.

Just do what your PC would do, that's it!

[Sajuuk-Khar]

"You reap what you sow" - PvP Karma is too amorphous for us to strictly  enforce, but is something we like to encourage. Seeking it will make you  a happier player, avoiding it (even if you don't strictly break any  rules) will just lead to disappointment for all involved (yourself, your  opponent, other players, and the DMs).

- Is the PvP justified?
Has the conflict between your characters reached a point where the  natural progression would be PvP? Are you certain that the desire for  PvP is entirely your character's, and not your feelings as a player  seeping into your RP?

- Is it best to subdual, to subdual-loot, or to FD (full damage) kill?
Has the character (and player) had opportunities to avoid being FD'ed if  they've lost? Is the rivalry or conflict sufficient cause that you  think looting or FD'ing is justified? If the situation was reversed, and  you were playing your character's opponent, would you feel the same  way? Has the story progressed to a point where a FD death would be  appropriate? Please note: often the answer is yes, sometimes in EFU it's  just time for FD time.

- Is the PvP fun and stylish?
Style is intangible, but should always be sought. Put some thought into it.

- Is your attitude as a player relaxed, respectful, sporting?
Are you a gracious winner, and respectful loser? Sportsmanship is  important. Note that this does go both ways, even if you're the victim  of PvP that you think doesn't agree with the PvP Karma Guidelines, you  should still try to be gracious and respectful. Of course, feel free to  come to the Dms if you have concerns.                      

Other good information can be found in this linked thread in the big "Information for New Players" forum.  Read and follow the guidelines, people it makes everyone happier: http://www.efupw.com/forums/showpost.php?p=152&postcount=1

[CaptLars]

I understand losing pvp hurts, Ive been in several encounters where I had it all but won and then Drogo drops a fire barrel and fireballs it and smokes my whole team, or we have half the server down and the other half comes running in and we lose by a hair, but that's what makes it fun. You have to realize for the other player its a major victory and he just snatched it from the jaws of defeat.
 
That being said if you lose, unless your a paladin or some extremely extremely prideful pc actions like.... cursing at, threatening, or otherwise insulting ARE GOING TO GET YOU KILLED AND ITS NOT A GOOD IDEA TO DO IT. I have lost count of how many pcs took a low priority pvp encounter and after I tried everything in the world I could do to let them go they just keep insulting, cursing, or threatening, like they want to die. Please please please stop this. You don't have to beg and grovel, just stop acting like "oh its the first time I pvp'd this guy, or he let all those other people go when he pvp'd them".
 
PVP Karma is what it is, its a guideline how to make the server more enjoyable and as for myself I follow it everytime, but at the same time we are all trying to play our character as they would act, and if you're staring at someone who has just gotten beaten and they are acting belligerent because they think OOC they are just going to get to go because of the PVP guidelines and OOC grace/mercy, it seems pretty ridiculous. I can tell you every time my characters get subdued, Im crawling around in the mud begging for my life and telling everyone how Im not worthy of the effort it would take to lift the sword (that's just cause I play scumbags though).
 
Just posting this because I see a trend of not just in my pvp, but a lot of others, of players being belligerent when subdued. I don't know why you would want to do that, unless you just want to die.

[Moonlighter]

Honestly, I can't help but feel like this thread is a little unnecessary.

We were super set on playing an extra merciful style of villainy, and as a result we didn't discourage people enough from attacking us. Do I think there's something to be learned from this thread? Absolutely. Do I necessarily believe that those who can take a bit of a learning experience from it will? No, probably not.

I'll take the Vandals as an example, as with their combinations of classy RP and the fact that they were the scariest group we had in this chapter (Ogre + Outsiders + Orcs = Scary). They constantly beat/humiliated/subdued their attackers or their prey (If even half of the things written in the IC forums are correct). They enslaved / killed PCs, yet, all the things I heard about them IG from others was mostly "Let's go hunt them". I didn't hear any Fat Bob goes: "I don't know Slim Jim, they sounds real dangerous, probably shouldn't go after them."

This is true, to a lesser extent, but I think a lot of people either play PCs who are ready to die at all times for a small chance at prominence, or they're willing to take the chance that we kill them if it means they might win in the end.

Now, if there's a discussion I'd like to have regarding the Vandals, it's of the OOC rumor-mongering and hate thrown our way. No one once tried to discuss any of the problems they had with us, well, with us. Instead I was treated to third and fourth hand rumors of us griefing and ganking people.

That's high-school shit and entirely unnecessary on a RP server. It killed my buzz quite a bit.

Level heads prevail. Go to a DM, or go to a player involved.

Thanks.

[robocop]

I agree with everything you've said, Moonlighter. OOC rumor-mongering and unnecessarily vindictive hate thrown against the villains because you lost pvp to them does indeed "kill the buzz".

Too bad you are guilty of it too.

[Paha]

I believe most of this subject has been said and the exact ways and guidelines given to how we hope and encourage you to act, in any of the cases. If you have issues, approach us in private. Otherwise, try to go with the best road you see and seek the best type of solutions you figure out, even if you don't always get same in return. What's for sure is that if you take bitter revenge to next character and carry on the that feeling and put the hurt on others in return, it'll keep on going.

Only way it ever ends if everyone simply does it far more than they do the worse options.

IC events, actions and what not do not belong to public OOC forums, irc or otherwise. They create misunderstanding and false pretenses to mob on people, leading to prejudice. Do not do it. This goes for everything. Keep things that happen in game, there. Or if you got issues, discuss them in private with us.