Suggestion: Create etiquette/rules for 'hostage situations.'

[Moonlighter]

... This is something that comes up every so often, and it seems just as often that RP flies out the window given the situation.

So please make some etiquette or rules so players will be a bit more thoughtful about how they approach these situations in the future.

Please, and thank you.

[Random_White_Guy]

I believe this was just recently made in a post by Howland though I can't find it off hand.

[xXCrystal_Rose]

If someone has hostages and a raid is made they should fully expect those hostages to be executed. It's part of the risk. If a criminal has a knife to someones throat and someone comes charging at them it is more than fair to say they flick their wrist and drop a body before defending themselves. The hero either is very confident or doesn't care about the lives at risk from their actions.

[TheShadow]

Yep. Hostage situations are like holding a explosive with a timer that no one knows when it's going to go off. /if/ people attack, don't hesitate to FD, it's part of the risk. You /will/ almost 100% be Fd'ed by the opposing group, in almost all situations, don't hesitate to do the opposite in return. Sure, it turns into a blood fest, but that's the thing. As to other parts of it, You can attack at any time. You can kill everyone. You can do whatever the heck you want, including group healing hostages while the Hostage holders get butchered.

[Paha]

I would wish these are mostly handled with RP and so, but yes, people definitely must expect FD in such situations, and if DM is overseeing, you can definitely mention and request some specific aid for it if you fear attackers intervening.

Enforcing RP actions in such manner would not be a good idea. People are allowed IC to act stupidly and make wrong choices, and they must bare the possible consequences. Often though, other people do not deliver these consequences, which also is an in character choice.

Here is one thing we have however said and while I am not going to right now check if it's absolute rule, you should really avoid.

"You can do whatever the heck you want, including group healing hostages while the Hostage holders get butchered."

If someone is at near death and held at knife-point - DO NOT RUSH IN TO HEAL THEM! This is simply stupid. In such situation it would not make a dimes worth a difference if they were full health or not, it's a mechanic and you are twisting the situation where they should be able to deliver the one blow to kill them. You are abusing a mechanical aspect of the game which really has no place in this kind situation, knowing that you can prevent that one hit killing the guy. Don't do it. That is a thing I can guarantee will not give you any cookie points with DM staff.

[Pandip]

I think the suggestion is moot because this is a courtesy issue more than it is a question about rules and etiquette. But I do want to say this:

Hostage situations are both a courtesy and a privilege that villainous PC's extend to the good guys. They typically come about when the villain gets attacked by a group thirsty for their blood and likely planning to FD the person if they succeed, and despite that villain having every right to FD and loot the people who tried to kill them, they instead say "Look, if you make it worth my while with interesting roleplay and gold, I'll let you go and we can continue our story."

So it becomes a (hopefully understandable) frustration when a group treats a hostage situation the way the one last night was handled. When you retreat from a PvP, run to the Sanctuary hub, rest, and rile up a mob of people that might have otherwise had zero interaction with a group of villains while that group is taking the time to play out negotiations for the sake of your friends, it's hard not to feel a bit duped for going through the effort to negotiate in the first place. It was disappointing to see how quickly the mob mentality kicked in. When we opened the door to fix a bugged body, we unexpectedly found a mob of PC's who rushed in and rolled over our group that had not been allowed to rest and was not permitted to lock the door to our lair to better control the confined situation. I know several of us took attacks from already subdued PC's in the chaos of the situation.

I'm not trying to complain; please don't misunderstand me. I had a great deal of meaningful roleplay and conflict and fun with the Vandals. This was a death I fully expected. But also understand that when things go down the way they did last night, the player base is encouraging that "gotta get level 8!" grind mentality for monstrous or fringe concepts, and they are making a statement that makes a player think that they should be significantly less merciful with the FD's they avoid handing and the packs of subdued PC's they don't touch -- which I know gets people riled up and salty more than anything else. And if you don't care about the villains, at least think about the subdued players that might or not receive a spiteful FD when it becomes clear that suddenly there are zero intentions for actual negotiations.

The Vandals absolutely deserved to die last night, but arguably so did three quarters of the eighteen or so people we fought who we spared on more than one occasion.

Food for thought, and hopefully something to think about or at least consider for future situations.

[PanamaLane]

As a habitual hostage, I'm throwing in my two cents here (even though its not really good as part of suggestion guidelines). If you are a hostage who has been subdued, sit down and be quiet. The hostage taker is in control, if he/she/they want to talk to you, then you can go ahead and RP. If they want to kick you around some, act like it hurts. You've been beaten, so it goes.

I also think letting people go has become somewhat of an OOC courtesy, but this is problematic because its always one sided. Team "law" for lack of a better term does not let people go often (and certainly not monsters ever). For this reason I think its best just to handle things as ICly as possible. If you are a hostage taker that would kill all your hostages, do it. These are the risks of a PVP world. Honestly, this makes it a lot easier to handle for both sides, then extending OOC courtesies.


Edit:

I want to add that in terms of last night, I think this was actually handled fairly decently by the hostages themselves. Mechanic problems aside with the door and the like, (and mob mentality perhaps) I definitely got the impression that at least none of the Watchers involved had any aspirations of escape and were resigned to FD if that was going to be the case. I didn't notice anyone getting up to fight or anything, in fact, I was sitting smack dab in the middle of combat for most of it until I made an AoO on a summon who promptly knocked me out. Perhaps a little time to pause and move us would have helped?

[HerDarkMajesties]

I also think letting people go has become somewhat of an OOC courtesy, but this is problematic because its always one sided. Team "law" for lack of a better term does not let people go often (and certainly not monsters ever)

This is I feel the point of playing extremely strong monstrous PC's. It's a survival challenge. Indeed, perhaps the most successful monstrous PCs are the ones that manage to become such a threat / nuisance that the rest of the server 'has' to band together to deal with them.

Anyway: I can't decide if this post was made as a legitimate suggestion, or just as an avenue for some players to vent frustrations over recent events that should be done so more privately / productively. If it's a legitimate suggestion though, rules do already exist and Howl's post here pretty well covers dealing with hostage situations.

[Damien]

Since it sounds like mob justice was involved I'd raise the point that those who succeed alone will be far more rewarded than the many. This is literally the difference between good and great players.

[The Samophlange]

To chime in from the 'Heroic' side of things, the characters that swept in for the rescue attempt knew full well that they were risking the lives of those caught. A great deal of debate came about how to handle it, until it was decided that an attack was necessary even if it meant blood be left upon their hands. A few people did wind up dying, too, though some of the hostages did survive. It was an exceptionally reckless IC action, and I think everyone appreciated as much.

[Random_White_Guy]

Regardless of any situation however I personally dislike hostage situations. As someone who has both been captured and has tried to capture others I just feel both basic NWN mechanics and similar hinder things to a sizable degree.

As someone prone to monologues I know it gets tedious to listen to me give speeches and rant and wait for negotiations. Equally there are times where as a hostage taken I've quite literally begged for death just to get the situation over with. In my personal opinion I don't find it a mercy, interesting RP, or anything of the sort to be captured and whisked away. I feel it adds a degree of antimosity that EFU doesn't need added- in so much as not only are you beaten you're left at the whims of the person who beat you and that just spurns sore winners, sore losers, and so on.

My worst hostage situation in EFU I had the PC I captured stopped communicating or emoting ICly at all and launch into a tirade via tells.

I'm quite fine with hostages emoting their battered state, refusing to speak, or anything like that but at least BE PRESENT. We're engaged in a scene. Emote about how you're oozing blood from your eyesockets after many punches or squinting through your beaten face or spitting out teeth or anything. Laying limp and possuming hoping it is over soon isn't any way to play.

It's why I prefer smash and grab muggings, catch and release interrogations, and similar form to try and "Abduct a hostage and negotiate for release". May be from my own bad experiences with trying to stop ganks by holding hostages but on the whole it just feels far from an effective RP tool in EFU.

There's been a stretch of hostage taking attempts in the last 4-5 months and on the whole I feel it's a bad turn for the server. Though that's just my personal view.

[Reylathi]

Just out of curiosity, is it permissible to stoneskin a hostage in the hopes the death blow cannot penetrate the damage resistance?

--bit about last night removed, sry--

I agree with Panama. I think it should be kept strictly IC, especially when these big group melees come up. If it results in half the server dying in one day, so be it. I mean it's Dungeons and Dragons, it's not like death is permanent anyway. You can usually be raised if you've got a few friends around town.

Now one thing does strike me as pretty blatantly unfair--resting. For me, it felt like enough time had passed and that particular encounter was long over, making it reasonable to start a campfire and prepare fresh spells. I had, after all, ran halfway across the map and talked to a bunch of people. The second encounter felt like a completely separate incident to me.

To you guys, role playing with your hostages, it probably felt like there was no opportunity to rest, like it was all one long, large, drawn-out single encounter. An argument could be made that you could have (and perhaps should have) rested in shifts while others watched the hostages, but I can see how that might go against the "don't prepare fresh spells in the middle of pvp events" guideline. Not sure what I think about that one ...

[MaimedGod]

I don't think, personally, that it's wise to discuss what happened the other night here in a suggestion thread!

I don't know why we're discussing monster stuff here either, but I will say that anyone who apps for a monster does so with the understanding (or at least SHOULD do so with the understanding) that they will not be treated with the same courtesy that they are expected to show others. It makes being an awesome monster villain all the more fun, never knowing what PvP will be your last!

[VanillaPudding]

Just out of curiosity, is it permissible to stoneskin a hostage in the hopes the death blow cannot penetrate the damage resistance?

This is just as silly as someone healing the hostage. If a fight breaks out and they are left on the ground then sure, I can see it being okay, but to just run up and do these things in order to totally remove the advantage the hostage-keeper has is kind of idiotic in any form. Just use common sense and what would happen IRL in such a situation, for the most part. Rushing up while someone is trying to type / RP is overall rude and will eventually force people that are being lenient to become more swift and brutal with their FD decisions I think.

[Reylathi]

Obviously rushing up and waving your arms around and chanting hoping to save the hostage would be pretty silly, I was thinking more along the lines of sneaking up invis or such and applying it with an item. It seems to me a fantastic counter to the old knife-at-the-throat. Can't cut through stoneskin with a knife.