Lair system suggestions

[Pandip]

I think the lair system is a very interesting addition to the server, but I don't think it's being handled in an entirely ideal way. I get the impression that people are being very exclusive about their lairs and who they're shared with. Perhaps my vision doesn't necessarily fit with the DM team's or the player base's, but I imagined lairs being a conduit for conflict and player interaction for fringe concepts. A way of going, "Look, I'm not in Sanctuary, but I have this swaggy little slice of home with a bed and all kinds of other benefits -- join me in making it better!"

I will fully admit that I have had limited interaction with lairs, but I feel like they're being secretly stashed away, hidden until the owner can grow in quiet secrecy without interruption. I don't understand the need to hide away lairs, like they should be part of a game of subtlety. In my mind, they should have an immediate effect on the IC politics of the server. They are already very restrictive in how and when hostile players can get involved -- as I understand, not only is a DM required, but the owner needs to be online.

My recommendations, summarized, would be these:

• Change lairs transitions into something that isn't a subtle tunnel. They should be big and bold, if not entirely obvious. This is someone's home, not an nondescript hole in the ground.



• Require player involvement to be proportional to lair advancement. A single PC should not be able to obtain a high level lair on their own.



• Make the most valuable lair "regeants" come from outside of quests, making lair advancement parallel but separate from the questing experience.



• Cap lair advancement to require DM supervision to achieve its highest level, therefore requiring the lair owners to make some contribution to the server before they can reach the peak of their power.

[SERIOUSDaddyIssues]

Honestly lairs seem to be getting handed out like candy, but I've yet to see anything really interesting happen as a result of them. Then again, they're also impossible to invade during my time zone as there's no DM activity.

So I guess I can't really comment any further on it.

[GetFirstPC]

Honestly lairs seem to be getting handed out like candy, but I've yet to see anything really interesting happen as a result of them. Then again, they're also impossible to invade during my time zone as there's no DM activity.

So I guess I can't really comment any further on it.

Well propably because those who gets lairs are parties outside main base of players = if something interesing goes on if you not with them or connected some way you wont know. Only way how to get some fun is attack this lair.


Well about changing transition into something noticable. Its not good thing only thing defending "monsters" lairs is that peoples dont know where it is. Doesnt matter how high lvl lair is. Peoples are greedy.

About single pc obtaining lair. Monster lair was mainly maid for "monster" character Dont think you should obtain app for for example 5 ogress at same time itsm ostly one at time.

And exp again monsters cant go alone to the quests. Wild is dangerous. They need some exp income. Otherwise monster hunters will have easy hunts

[d1n4l9q7]

One of my characters saw the entrance to 1 lair, and heard of 2 others. He could have been involved with 2 of them possibly. That was a wilderness character though. City dwellers are significantly less likely to be involved with lairs by their very nature of being largely monster/conflict group hideouts. The reason they were so secretive is because there are competing groups in the wilderness so its a lot more dangerous for lair groups/characters than you can imagine! The last thing they would want is team Sanctuary knowing the location of their lair with their 2-4 members. Conflict groups survive by not being easy to find mostly! And these characters tend to be short lived so I guess lairs come and go quickly.

From what I gathered most of the ways of upgrading them didn't involve quests but I guess all lairs are different.

You have to factor in that they are new so people are just getting use to them. They seem to be a great way to create conflict.

[SERIOUSDaddyIssues]

What monsters currently have lairs, and how many are PCs that could easily be in the other hubs, though?

[Gear Head]

They're hidden for a very good reason. They're very easy to destroy, forcing the PCs to rebuild. And they're a ton of work to get up to any decent level. As a result the owners of lairs who have enemies -have- to hide them. It becomes a grind to continuously rebuild what's always being wrecked. If you don't hide the lair you're just asking for it to be worthless to you.

I have some experience with lairs, but as they're new I'm sure the balance isn't yet perfected.

[d1n4l9q7]

A Dwarf Fortress could be out in the open if there was a large enough group of PC Dwarves. Dwarves are very sturdy in packs! However it'll be a magnet for Monsters, which would be epic fun =)

[WriterX]

We also have to remember that when a Monster just starts out has a relatively low level, no quality equipment and the lair will also be of a low level. In essence, when a Monster just starts out putting its lair in the "open" would mean quick and sudden death.

Let us be honest here, monster hunters will not exactly create elaborate RP, of observing, sneaking into and then destroying the lair. It is far more likely that there will be an invisi-gank, because monsters.

As such, monsters initially need to hide their lairs, and the lairs have to be hidden WELL. Failure to do so would result in a very, very short PC life, and perhaps an even shorter lair life.

Do not get me wrong here, the system of raiding a lair is necessary, but in the vast majority of cases the adventurers coming from Sanctuary will always have better equipment and a higher level than a monster who just started out. As such, visible entrances in often visited areas of the server is the worst possible idea.

[Howlando]

I strongly disagree with some of these suggestions and strongly disagree with the notion that this system hasn't been successful. It has been incredibly successful from my own perspective.

Change lairs transitions into something that isn't a subtle tunnel. They should be big and bold, if not entirely obvious. This is someone's home, not an nondescript hole in the ground.

This is not necessary at all, I think the vast majority of PCs will investigate any tunnel revealed to them by tab. If anything I think lair transitions are too obvious.

Require player involvement to be proportional to lair advancement. A single PC should not be able to obtain a high level lair on their own.

Every advanced lair I can think since the system has been developed has involved a fair bit of cooperation to some extent.

Make the most valuable lair "regeants" come from outside of quests, making lair advancement parallel but separate from the questing experience.

This is the case already.

Cap lair advancement to require DM supervision to achieve its highest level, therefore requiring the lair owners to make some contribution to the server before they can reach the peak of their power.

Hardly necessary but there hasn't been an advanced lair type I can think of that hasn't been richly deserved in my opinion.

Every lair is different: some are oriented towards a faction, some are for truly monstrous concepts, some are more neutral-oriented and have attracted a great deal of assistance. Some are well hidden, some are not. Every lair type has attracted various degrees and kinds of conflict and roleplaying. I can certainly understand that a lot of the intrigue, fighting, raids, conflict, and roleplay related may not be noticed by all players (particularly those belonging to neglected timezones) but I really do find the system quite successful myself....

[Mushroom Mushroom]

The amount of efforts the Myconids have put into their lair involves at least well over several hours a day of simply roaming the server for ingredients. I think you need your own lair to really see the amount of hard work that is needed.


I am sure the DMs have ways of rewarding lair dwellers who truly use their lair in an intriguing and fun way for the server.

[Ryan]

I've recently found that lairs can be great flash points for faction conflict, entailing a lot of cooperation, strategy, and execution in raiding them. I think they've been quite a success so far.

[Random_White_Guy]

I can wholeheartedly say the Lair System has altered how I approach and play EFU. As someone who has spent the last few weeks pursuing the Lairs I'll do my best to answer your concerns Fitz from a first person perspective.

As far as subtelty goes the low tier lair is literally a hole in the ground. In the Underdark which is a huge series of holes in the ground. I think a little subtle is okay in that regard.

Change lairs transitions into something that isn't a subtle tunnel. They should be big and bold, if not entirely obvious. This is someone's home, not an nondescript hole in the ground.

The Underdark is full of non-descript holes and I've seen people return from the Lowerdark, to Sanctuary, past countless hazardous spawns, collect people, and return to a single "Exploration" marker which wasn't even a subtle hole but a transition in the ground. This seems non-issue to me.

Require player involvement to be proportional to lair advancement. A single PC should not be able to obtain a high level lair on their own.

I can't speak to other people but I've had to apply for mine so the front-end investment is on par with most Subraces which don't really have to be "Earned" so much as "survive". Lairs are very similar to me in this regard. That being said one of the saving graces of the Lair system is the fact a Single PC -can- obtain a high level lair on their own. Though howland has said cooperation is required the fact that a single PC can acquire a lair on their own to me is one of the finer aspects of EFU.  In my timezone I find myself isolated party due to concept but equally due to Class restrictions and the fact I am a wildling PC outside of Sanctuary.

As I am not on the "Best" of terms with the Stewards and you and your monster crew are the only two powers outside of Sanctuary in my timezone this leaves me with a whopping "Nothing to do". With the lair system utilized as it is however this means I can prowl the server fighting monsters, roleplaying my harsh struggle to survive, and fundamentally still do things that are "Accomplishments'. It feels proactive that even on the most boring night I can hit the server, prowl around, collect some resources for my boys, and return it to the lair for a small sum.

Equally it gives me something to do since most of the Dwarves who have come forward to address me or my concerns or seek to join up are in the Euro Timezone. Without something to do, as a PC in the Wilds who isn't best friends with the current wildling crew, this has more or less kept my concept alive.

Make the most valuable lair "regeants" come from outside of quests, making lair advancement parallel but separate from the questing experience.

As howland has said this is done but equally it is another one of the best aspects of the Lair System. Howland and other DMs and PCs can tell you from my chats with them that my first four days on my character I was level 3 in the wilds without stealth and brutally murdered over and over by hostile spawns.

Corpse clears from generous PCs and DMs alike ensured that instead of rage-quitting the concept I could see my lair improved, turn in my points and make a lasting move forward. For the first time at least in my narrow world view of EFU, levels don't actually matter to me thanks to the Lair System. So long as I am able to get out there and hunt for resources my concept can recover to the "Survivable" levels of 5/6 on EFU without the need of the boundless fedexing or monotonously killing worms in the Worm Pits.

Cap lair advancement to require DM supervision to achieve its highest level, therefore requiring the lair owners to make some contribution to the server before they can reach the peak of their power.

You say "the peaks of their power" as if our lair systems are conducting guerrilla raids on EFU.

The lair system is implemented as a four fold project in my mind 1) A headquarters, 2) A safe have, 3) An RP tool, 4) A recruitment tool. In my mind it's perfect for PC interactions, PC plots, PC endeavors, PC activities, and on the whole I fundamentally feel almost entirely removes the need for PC factions to rely on DMs to do anything.  As someone who has orchestrated many PC factions I can't tell you how much of a life saver it is to have all these tools at my disposal without needing a DM.

In my own concept I have fashioned my lair as a fledgling Kingdom. It allows me to hire PCs as bodyguards, offer refuge, grant safe-haven, play politics with other PC factions and DM factions alike. It allows me to hire people to pursue resources on my behalf. It allows me to hire people to go run errands and make contact with Upper, Lower, other lairs if they are low level and I need to give them a mission to "Trust me".

All of these things and more I've been able to do without a DM presence. The tangible fact that PCs can operate independant of DM oversight (Barring the lair raids, of course) allows me to thrive.

As howland has mentioned neglected timezones I'll come out and say it- I'm in the dead air.

However given the lair system I can, even if minute, make changes to my lair and show active growth and progress and orchestrate affairs with PCs and hold meetings and pursue undertakings of statecraft, resource gathering, recruitment, and basically play a game all of my own that doesn't require a DM for anything.

I know it's a long post but it's a complex system and one that has brought a heap of new passion for me to EFU. My faction has seen eight PCs join up and die off and while that sucks to an extent I've still got the lair and my PC is still alive so I've still got something to do. Even if my lair is raided I can pick up shop, move it, and start over.

To me it's frankly the best thing that has happened to EFU since perhaps the transition away from EFU:M. Adding DM oversight to these pursuits I feel would only hamper the independent sand box feel of it.

Look at it this way:

A PC with a lair has to cooperate to survive, else they die. At the same time however to demand they require a certain level of "Involvement' seems anathema to me. Simply by existing I add involvement to the server, as did the Wild Orcs who were a hugely debated issue, as are anyone who has a Lair. It's a combination of survival horror and terror that anyone, even DM NPC raids, of your lair can occur at any time.

Adventurers and people who get to high levels and do their questing mixed with scheming and plotting, coupled with their DM faction involvement, and similar all have more potential to harm or hinder the flow of a plot or PC pursuit on EFU.

Yet as the Wild Orcs vs Necromancers conflict showed lairs aren't invincible even at their greater and higher levels. A dedicated group of PCs with levels, supplies, and proactive intentions will always be the strongest thing in EFU to shape the server.

[Letsplayforfun]

Monster lair given out to solo monsters are a great way to be a real monster an not -have- to befriend others just to quest and lvl up & loot.

Now with lairs you can decently reach lvl5-6 alone, while being a permanent walking target (+your lair) to others, and you get just a little bit of supplies to act, yet not be loaded with loot. Just by logging on you're worth more to the server than before. And if you've got a plan, that's even better.

Then upgrading your lair is near impossible if you're alone (it takes ages), and it will be found anyway, so you will have to cooperate to build/defend it.

Lairs are great.

[MaximumOverDrive]

personally, after owning a lair I feel they are just fine as they are. For my Rot-character it was a haven as he was usually hunted by other nature pc's and driven off by others. Without people to level with, this saved me a short and dull existence of trying to rely off of oocly questing with people just because i want the levels. As to DM involvement, im pretty sure these were designed specifically so DM's wouldn't have to involve themselves into it much.
As to entrances! I'm in a place of debate in this area. Should things like hidden crypts.. Hidden myconid lairs, hidden rot groves.. -HIDDEN- stuff have obvious openings? I don't think so at all... With the emergence of the dwarf fortress, I think a cool entrance could be designed in my personal opinion as its more than a lair-hideaway, its a growing home of dwarfkind, however, literally some entrances to big things can be no more than just a hole in the ground, so not really necessary at all... Maybe in this dark dangerous world, people would try to build hidden homes rather than "HEY IM HERE COME KILL AND LOOT ME" places. There are plenty of those, but a lair is a lair for a good reason, its hidden, and safe.

[Arc]

With several DMs having weighed in, the horse is long dead, but I'd chime in that having worked with/against a lot of lair owners, the lair system as is is amazing and I cant imagine why people complain about it.