Hardcore vs. Less Hardcore: Musings

[9lives]

Germain QFT.

But I feel I should add that I think consequence is the key difference between Hardcore and less so, not a choice between combat or conversation.

[Caddies]

I believe there are too many shades of grey for some manner of tag system to work effectively.

While I personally prepare myself in full for any DM event/spice, rather than leaving anything to chance, I would say the only semi-effective way would be a warning beforehand. This way, the onus is entirely on the player.

Yet I also agree with Mort that such warnings are sort of superfluous! Ideally players should prepare for the worst, else they have nobody else to blame but themselves.

[MasterAvenger]

I'll try to answer Howland's post as honestly as possible.

Firstly, I derive a lot of my enjoyment in NWN from playing flawed, quirky builds or restrictions and trying to overcome their mechanical disadvantages through some way or another. It's a very personal kind of challenge that means I'm not usually the best contributor to the party - especially in hardcore situations. For this reason, I don't usually enter tournaments, duels, and so on, simply because I'm aware that my personal challenge usually doesn't rank up to another PC's fine-tuned build.

Also, a character's end does not mean that I, as a player, no longer have interest in that character's unfinished business. Case in point: the Machine. But after a few characters with the same focus, it becomes frustrating to have to re-learn all the same first steps, so minimizing permadeaths is a good idea. This means I can misinterpret things, that I can misunderstand "odds stacked against you" for "it's the DM's way to tell us to flee".

So all this pretty much describes me as a Less Hardcore player, right?

Not necessarily. While my Machine lovers (to take my eternal example) would not go into the advertized tomb-raiding epic trips such as this one ( http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/old_forums/viewtopic.php?t=19074 ), because it is unrelated to what they're trying to achieve - they would have been the first to sign up on a similar venture had there been a 1% chance of finding the Machine's purpose (for instance), even though they'd likely have permadied within 5 seconds.

What I'm saying is, I'd see myself as a Hardcore-if-related-to-my-interests. I don't mind, for another example, the 50% chance of permadeath on the Bloodmage ritual, on top of the fact I have no clue whatsoever what such a prestige class brings - it could very well utterly ruin my character's already-shaky build.

Of course, I feel compelled to answer the specific malarite ceremony example, being one of the players present. A series of misinterpretations made me completely misunderstand what was awaited of us at that particular event.

Eyes were following us from the trees - I thought it was a sign the monsters would be spawning from the treeline, making hiding and running impossible. As it turns out, it was only a way to set the mood.
Even knowing that it wasn't the case, I would still have suggested the clearing as the place to make a stand, simply because it's a far more fun place to fight, instead of being the most mechanically advantageous.
Once we were ambushed, I managed to flee, but I hopelessly came back because I felt like the cheap guys in Starcraft who have one worker left and are building cheap buildings in hidden corners to make their opponent mad and quit. Far-fetched example, but it's the best way to illustrate it - it didn't feel right to draw out defeat and deprive the other team of their victory.

As you can see, we had it all wrong - and knowing whether or not we were facing PCs would have made very little difference in a fair or unfair fight, since that wasn't the format of the event at all. I'm disappointed if others were outraged by the result of the event. It was a beautifully organized one - juggling two PC parties at once is never easy.

Had we known every single detail - Seccanan would have participated nonetheless, because it was Related To Her Interests. On the other hand, Rousseau wouldn't have no matter what information was available, since it had nothing to do with what he wants.

Bottom line: I'm against EFUSL Hardcore tags or any similar concept, because they do not reflect my characters' spheres of interest. I think Hardcore events need to be handled on a case-to-case basis rather than with the broad sweep of a new rule or feature. Personally, I have never had any complaints about how Hardcore events have been handled in the past.

[I can has fun?]

I have given a great deal of thought to this issue over time, and here's what it boils down to for me:

If I am making a move that could permanently end my character, I want some degree of choice in the matter.

When it comes to DMs, that friendly OOC notice that "This could result in permadeath" has always been sufficient. I have never regretted either entering or declining to enter DM-led permadeath situations.

When it comes to my fellow PCs, it gets more complicated. What I hate are the "you must die because of what you represent" encounters. When it feels like I got roped into permadeath PvP situations for insufficient cause, it's not much fun.

The bottom line, I never regret losing a character when I knowingly choose to enter a permadeath situation. That never feels like a waste of time. Some of the best deaths I've ever had came by PvP, but they were also all risks I chose to take.

If there is anything we all agree on, it's the fact that we don't all agree on how hardcore things should be. I would like to see the playerbase adopt a standard custom of courtesy when thing escalate to the FD level, even if it's nothing more than an OOC tell consisting of "hey ur gonna die LOL."

For me, this isn't something the DMs have much control over, it's just a question of communication.

[tooh]

I prefer a simple IG/OCC advise about what can happen and if will be a PD/PvP, no tags, no hard party.

[dragonfire9000]

I cannot take time to read all of this tonight, so I've only got Howland's original post under my belt.

[suckup]Howland, I'd like to thank you for realizing/taking this into consideration. Show's character and all. [/suckup]

I'll have to put myself on the non-Hardcore list for now, if one exists. I absolutely love the big high-risk quests such as Wild Orcs and Vrazdn, but my computer cannot handle the spawns. It freaks out. And while I do not mind my character dying to IC reasons (my first character got messed UP by that amazing Garagosian priestess and I loved every second of it) I absolutely hate losing three days' work to five seconds' lag/glitch. It demoralizes me. I'm very in favor of smaller, goofier DM events. I had one on Arabel where it was only me, a level five rogue pure, in a maze of increasingly difficult monsters and traps. I loved it! It stretched my mind, and had risk without lag. I know that these aren't really time-effective, but it makes a player feel like Chuch Norris to go on a DM event with a DM all to themselves.

Condensation: I'm non-hardcore for OOC reasons. More one-on-one DM interaction is amazing! More puzzles. (that's what I always tell my PvP DM)

[Caddies]

I would like to see the playerbase adopt a standard custom of courtesy when thing escalate to the FD level, even if it's nothing more than an OOC tell consisting of "hey ur gonna die LOL."

This has been suggested and discussed upon numerous times before. Sending tells like "Hey I'm going to PvP you" before the PvP as some manner of 'courtesy' thing is simply never going to be the norm on EFU for various reasons, the most obvious one being that it brings OOC elements into an otherwise entirely IC situation, which is never good. I guess what I am saying is if you expect this 'courtesy' tell, then your time on EFU is going to be full of frustration anytime you get involved in FD PvP. Its just unrealistic to hope for this.

/tangent

[Pup]

On further consideration:

I do not like ooc disclaimers. :( -- Consider any Mort[DM] text has a sign of unpredictability and possible hardship.

That's my disclaimer.

I've had to think upon this topic for abit before answering.  I had thought to compare different moments of DM spice and quests in which I came out the victor and when I had to perma-death a PC.  I had thought to give my own personal thoughts and opinions of what I like to see and what I don't. But ultimately I decided on this...

Howland, while your consideration for others to have an enjoyable time is admirable.. ultimately I think you should continue to run the type of events that YOU enjoy doing.  Chances are that if you think you did your best as a DM to be fair, just, and entertaining - then you probably did.  You sadly can't make everyone happy.

Just my two cents. :)

Yus.

[Howlando]

Given the vast range of opinion here in this thread, I almost want to sticky it as a way to sort of show players who do get upset with some particular DM action of just how extremely difficult it is to cater to every kind of playing-style in terms of what we do.

[Not.Him.Again]

I would give one piece of advice to players who do get upset as someone who -has- gotten upset before. Step one for me was allways to log off and go for a run or do something completely non-EfU related. Step two is figure out -why- you died. Not, the DM was a real jerk ect ... I mean the exact mechanics that lead to your death. Example, maybe your character was charmed because you didnt have pfe/g up. Ok so now you know why you died mechanically and you can try to work to avoid having that happen again. I know the hardest part for me was understanding that its not allways good idea to tag along on the uber hard quests with my low level char. Sure there are plenty of tanks and it may be fun, however if I dont have the supplies for it the danger sign should be flashing :cool:. Step three was to bite the bullet and log back in and respawn or to create a new character. If I created a new one step four was usually to kick myself three days latter because I lost all the rp associated with the character I had :p. Just my two cents on how to deal with frustration.

[UnholyWon]

EFU was born with a player base that understood that the server was meant to be extremely challenging, horribly realistic, and overwhelmingly exciting. As the DM staff and “vintage” players who started with the alpha and beta days, continuously remind the new and old players, this is just a game.

Certainly there are the Hardcore Players, and these players meet every challenge the DMs throw at them with a certain zeal that remains particularly mystifying. I thank the Hardcore Players that allow me to tag along occasionally and let me watch their characters develop thru DM quests (its better then most movies). My hat is off to those Hardcore Players that can meet these challenges.  

I am no longer the Hardcore Player. I still approach the game like a Hardcore Player, and pray and hope for some creative DM spice. The DM staff is going to either A) give me an experience that is going to a memory for the rest of life, B) Leave me wanting more, and a little unfulfilled, or C) Really freaking pissed off at the DM staff about FDing my character and ending the character’s career. I’ve only had one experience with “C” but in the end it became an “A” experience, hell it’s just a game!

I’m not for this Hardcore Tag, as always EFU is going to weed out the players whom can’t handle the extremely challenging, horribly realistic, and overwhelmingly exciting atmosphere. Its sad, but realistic. Hardcore Tagging seems like a favoritism system, and I know this server -is not- about favoritism.

Its hard to detach from player’s experience, and this is what I’ve seen time and time again burn the DM staff out, my own opinion.

I say no to Hardcore Tagging, but a reinstatement of the extremely challenging, horribly realistic, and overwhelmingly exciting DMing that came with EFU.

Either the new player base will catch on and become Hardcore Players, or move on to other servers, but don’t go changing who the player base is viewed.

[Cruzel]

I only really read Howls post and skimmed the rest.

I think a Tag system has Merit, but to be honest, I think it's the players' duty in the end. I love challenges, and I love new stuff and spice. I know some people don't, and that's cool. Some of these people will completely blow off a DM quest they  think will be too tough, and often I'll join them just for the awesome RP they are going to get into while the rest of the server is off getting mad LOOT.

If a player really wants to be pushed and tested, they should tell them DMS at some point or another. Not just from one PC to another. If they as a player want tough quests, tough spice, or just general toughness all around - They should make it known.  There are some times when some things have been WAY too tough (Lol, Nickless!) But I personally do love it when the average, dull AI will suddenly randomly switch from that frontliner they can't hit, to the low AC support PC who is making them so hard to hit.

Despite what Arkov and JOhannes throw at it - Event Driven AI like NWN's still suck. They can be smart at times, but the engine itself limits them in ways that are often intentionalyl and unintentionally exploited. When a DM pops up and starts controlling the spawns starcraft style - It makes everything so much more immersive, you feel that your enemy is truly alive, and well - they are.

I come(Before this anyways) from a server where there was no DM interaction in the RP, everything was player driven. That's my style, my old server was like a beautiful blend between Action/RP. We'd often go up and just Smash up the hardest quests on the server, sometimes just completely chilling, OOCly chatting. Sometimes we'd run through it ICly and it would be amazing.
I'm used to 'playing hardmode' without DMs. Just finding the hardest quests and trying to crush them is a great goal OOCly, and ICly too for some PCs.   Don't get me wrong, I do love it when a DM steps in and makes it that much harder, But I try to keep what I ask of the DMs to a bare minimum, instead looking at ways to gimp my builds both ICly and mechanically, to make it that much harder on my own.

Trying to do quests like IMPS without magic weapons, three manning orcs, three manning the new nightriser quest with a 10 str bard as the main frontline - Just a few examples of how the average player can kick it up a notch from Hard, to "Ridiculouse".


Well, This was kind of rambling! to DMs ; Just do whatever you want, if a player specifically tells you to make it hard, or to leave them alone, go with that. If they don't say anything, just do whatever. Nobody here plays JUST for the DMs, it's the rest of the community we stick around for. You can't please everyone, no matter how you try. Just do whatever you think will be the most fun. That's working for hte most part now, and when people complain, you usually do a good job of calming them down.


As for me? Feel free to try to kill any of my PCs.  In over a year, you guys have only managed it once or twice :D

[AKMatt]

I'm probably the least hardcore player around, but I've always found DM quests in general to be reasonable.  When permanent death is involved, it is usually apparent from the onset of the quest that it will be incredibly deadly.  I've seen some DMs indicate this with OOC warnings, which tends to pare down the group size a bit, but most of the time the DMs just relay ICly that there is an incredible amount of danger associated with the task at hand, and this is enough.

I say keep it as is.

[Letsplayforfun]

If I am making a move that could permanently end my character, I want some degree of choice in the matter.

As much as i understand and appreciate Howland's will cater DMing to all player base, i'd rather see him and other DMs do what they enjoy doing.

As for the OP itself: i vary between two extremes. For some PCs i enjoy  playing easy bunny stuff and keeping them alive. For others, high adrenaline rush over difficult challenges. It's like trying the Way: some of my PCs i send through for the hell of it, others i didn't.

When it comes to DM spice or even pvp, i know i always have a choice to back out if i OOCly or ICly want to, so if i do get involved and get pawned, it's part of the fun i chose this very day.

Not much to change, imo. DMs are doing a fine job, from building to spicing, and you'll never be able to please everyone anyways.

But yes: sticky this to show players how tough DMing can be sometimes.

[Kiaring]

I swear.

Even the most brutal, unforgiving metropakt DM quests/spice has always, always been wonderfully scaled. What I mean by this is that generally DMs will go out of their way to tailor particular incidents/encounters to what they truly feel PCs are capable of handling. I have not heard a single tale of DMs wantonly crushing parties. Every time a TPK happens, it's either because of mechanical screw-ups on the part of the players (everyone gets dispeled and no one wants to pop those PfE/G potions etc) or because characters behaved ICly in a way that would very obviously lead to their death (and every time this has happened forewarning was given by DMs, IE "This will likely lead to permadeath if it happens").

I think this thread has more merit in showing how much variety of opinion there is within our community, regarding this particular topic, than setting up possible ways to 'deal' with this problem. The only thing I can say is I hope DMs continue to think up flavorful spice that is as challenging as the PCs who are going to handle it can take. Forewarning is something I'd be ok with/supportive of in case of possible perma-death.