Hardcore vs. Less Hardcore: Musings

[Underbard]

Short and sweet.  I think things are fine like they are.  On a side note, sounds like that was an awesome time last night.

[Ommadawn]

I'm against tags like those suggested. I don't consider myself hardcore or non-hardcore, it changes on the mood I'm in or any number of other variables, and I would think this applies to many others as well.

Howland, I think if you run the quests or events you like to run, and make sure those attending are aware of the possible outcomes beforehand (a little OOC courtesy which I don't mind at all breaking immersion) then it's all good as it is.

My $0.02 anyway.

[Semli]

I think a bit of warning beforehand is a good thing, similar to how it became a loose policy to kind of warn PCs upfront with a possession or emote they're about to get spiced to avoid heartaches. There are ways to handle it where you don't even have to break immersion.

For example, I imagine a goofy little quest being handled much the same as usual, but before players embark on the epic ones a seer screaming about the perils ahead, stacks of dead, mutilated bodies, haunting noises that seem to suck away all hope of survival can serve this purpose pretty well.  Provided these come about while PCs have some chance to turn around, I don't really see the issue when 10 werewolf lords jump out in the next area and tear the party to ribbons. The hints were all there. The only place I potentially see this falling through is when a player might be playing a paladin and expected to confront dangers, but the setting has never been particularly kind to that class anyways.

I feel the proposed tag system will potentially lead to subtle miscommunications between players and DMs, and I typically find many challenges to fall somewhere between silly and epic. I wouldn't want to get ignored as a player or character for some stupid marker I set awhile back and forgot about.

[TeufelHunden]

I love the idea of tags. I have been on quests that were just too easy and I felt could have been way more fun if they were more difficult. I am hardcore and I personally love knowing that if I screw up I could possibly die and if my character would do that stupid thing and die I will even do it. I guess its in my nature to look for danger =P.

[Germain]

I've had to think upon this topic for abit before answering.  I had thought to compare different moments of DM spice and quests in which I came out the victor and when I had to perma-death a PC.  I had thought to give my own personal thoughts and opinions of what I like to see and what I don't. But ultimately I decided on this...

Howland, while your consideration for others to have an enjoyable time is admirable.. ultimately I think you should continue to run the type of events that YOU enjoy doing.  Chances are that if you think you did your best as a DM to be fair, just, and entertaining - then you probably did.  You sadly can't make everyone happy.

Just my two cents. :)

[Egon the Monkey]

I was one of those players last night, and the real trouble we had was our tactic was based on the reasonable assumption we'd be facing NPCs, and turned into chaos when PCs unexpectedly pitched up, which demanded a big rethinking. It wasn't that it was tough so much that it was confusing because the setting changed mid-way to "tournament" when we'd planned for "DM-upgraded and posessed monsters".

I'd say it's more important to adjust for who turns up. If you have things constantly tough, the same badasses often keep rocking the DM quests, and keep being the ones who survive and prosper because they made it through the last time and got the rare potions/fullplate/whatever. And seriously how do you turn them down? Then there's a big level/supplies variation within a group so it's hard to have it be challenging for one without impossible for another.

I'd love to see more epic DM quests and spice where the "Imp Exp Fighter with a bag of Sludge drinks" isn't going to cut it for success. The Machine was a great example of where you needed tough PCs backed up by smart PCs with Lore and Craft Trap.

I like puzzles and challenges based on thinking, not mechanical skill and having stockpiled Blurs. My favourite quest ever was one Mort ran in the UD. It had us attempting to negotiate with Duergar and Orogs, figure out a way to clear rubble with improvised explosives before we were overwhelmed by unlimited ghouls, deal with a double-cross, recapture a kidnapped party member and defeat an entire corridor of foes by combining two grenadelikes to create huge explosions.

In my mind the best DM quest is where you can go outside the box of a scripted quest and beat challenges that would be nigh-impossible normally by telling the DM you want to use that Coil Of Rope you have, or use a Soundburst to drop an avalanche on the advancing orcs, or steal an enemy uniform, or whatever.

[Not.Him.Again]

What about this, on EfU there use to be an agreement that DMs would place some type of warning down if players were about to enter a crazy spice quest. (One example I was on was a quest where the start had a drow impaled on a spear before the NPC monsters domain.) If its an issue let us bring that back so players can decide for themselves. Dont give anything away, but put a posting in OOC start area that says if you see something like this its understood your are entering into the Awsome. Do not be upset if you dont make it back. If you want to turn back there are no hard feelings either way. I also very much like the flag idea with the one request that current PCs be allowed to flag themsleves as well when this system is implemented. I have probably been one of the worst about quiting characters in frustration when something goes wrong. However. after experiencing other servers that were far easier I came to realize something. The greatness of EfU/EfU:A for myself was in two parts. The first was the wonderfully rich settings and role play avaliabe on the DM and PCs side. The other was the genuine challenge of the game. The players on this server are some of the best mechanically I have seen. They can do things with none power builds that other players would die on without power builds and power gear. The reason for that is the level of challenge presented by the DM staff! So lets keep the hardcore and just allow people to flag themselves / give a clear warning of when its coming.

[Mechsword]

I say, we take a idea from WoW and have something similiar to a 'Heroic' mode on most Duengeons. Yup.

The quest would give better loot then normal, but there would be twice the monsters + a heroic variation of them with twice the amount of HP and maybe some other tricks up their sleeve.  Also, the boss would have twice as much hp and in general be harder then shit.

[Luke Danger]

I tend to vary, sometimes I want the challange and enjoy it, but other times I like when I can find alternative solutions to a problem instead of the good ole 'Me Smash you down!'

So I personally am a shade of gray, but I prefer quests where it's well scaled so it is not too easy, but not a LiS class grind. Egon The Monkey's example with grenades is an example of what I like to do when I can, so for me, Cunning > Mechanical Skill and kegs of pots

[The Crimson Magician]

a LiS class grind

[Caddies]

Howland, while your consideration for others to have an enjoyable time is admirable.. ultimately I think you should continue to run the type of events that YOU enjoy doing. Chances are that if you think you did your best as a DM to be fair, just, and entertaining - then you probably did. You sadly can't make everyone happy.

This.

[Wern8]

I am more of a hardcore player, though it does also depend on what character I am playing, but overall, I do like challenges and would not mind getting involved with risky quests, scripted or DM run.

And I think that the tag idea would be nice, as long as it does not turn out like what Semli says. Some players do change their mind after all, perhaps it should be a tag that could be changed at any time?

I feel the proposed tag system will potentially lead to subtle miscommunications between players and DMs, and I typically find many challenges to fall somewhere between silly and epic. I wouldn't want to get ignored as a player or character for some stupid marker I set awhile back and forgot about.

[TeufelHunden]

I like Mechsword's idea.

[Winston Martin]

You could have a confidential forum sign up sheet for players that don't want anything to do with this sort of event and don't like PvP. I would rather see the effort it would take a DM to rework EFUSL going into quest making and other fun activities.

[Wern8]

Winston Martin is quite right as well.