Hardcore vs. Less Hardcore: Musings

[Howlando]

Hardcore vs. Less Hardcore

I need to get something off my chest. Although EFU:A is certainly a hardcore server by anyone's estimation, it seems that there's something of a division in the playerbase that is making my job as a DM (my job being to entertain!) more difficult or at least complex.

I hope people don't misinterpret this, but it seems like there's some players who are hardcore, and others who are less, and it can be a struggle to DM the right balance in between.

Whereas the hardcore prefer to seek out the most dangerous quests and challenges, other players seem to truly and legitimately not enjoy quests that represent substantial risk.

Whereas the hardcore embrace the possibility of permanently losing their character to a mistake or misstep, others really are not comfortable with losing their PC for circumstances outside their control.

Whereas the hardcore would welcome an interestingly roleplayed conflict that may involve sudden, unexpected, or difficult PvP, others seem to wish to not be involved.

Whereas the hardcore welcome the craziest spice we as DMs can bring, others don't enjoy it.

Whereas the hardcore want the odds stacked against them, the less hardcore have an expectation of fairness in the challenges they face.

Now, I absolutely realize there's a huge variety in between these two extremes. And it is also absolutely true that excellent players and roleplayers can be either of those two groups. It's important players understand that I'm not expressing a particular preference for who I'd like to see on EFU:A, for there's room for all kinds of different playstyles here (within reason, bearing in mind that even the least hardcore will need to be pretty hardcore to deal with our death penalties, etc.) As an example, the player of a certain Kossuthan priest we had a while back (sadly gone!) probably got more loot and perks from us with his PCs beyond practically any other character in the history of the server due to his wonderful roleplay and involving nature, but he was by no means a hardcore player. The most important things in EFU are not the degree of hardcore but rather the stories we're telling.

Certainly we as Dms already keep playstyles in mind, and try not to compel players to do something they as players don't want to do. But could we, or at least I, do a better job of it?

If I run two DM quests, one might be a silly goofy thing where I just want to entertain some players and have them find some loot. Another might be some arduously difficult epic thing with a 1 in 10 chance of success (and with probably rewards to deserve it if they do succeed). Some players will prefer one kind of DM quest more than another.

Another example, last night I ran an event that was a malarite ceremony where two parties of roughly-evenly matched PC were in a giant forest, constrained by certain IC rules, and where one group was "hunting" the other. Now I didn't warn anyone OOC'ly that it was actually _PCs_ who were going to be the hunters rather than NPCs, and I guess some players didn't like that. It wasn't FD PvP or anything like that, but was still challenging PvP.

In a situation such as that, a hardcore player might find it really exciting to be ambushed by intelligent minds that are actually trying to win vs. a DM-controlled NPC that everyone knows secretly wants you to win. And some kind of OOC warning that they should expect PvP might ruin the surprise for them. So how to reconcile the two?

I don't want to get bogged down into specific events, but does anyone have a suggestion for how I could tailor my efforts as a DM to satisfy all playstyles without harming any?

Just brainstorming, but what would people think of a system where players could OOC'ly tag their PCs (either through EFUSL or some other system) as HC as a way to signal that they welcome the meanest, toughest, most challenging, least merciful stuff we can throw at them?

Or maybe we as DMs could have some kind of OOC signal we throw up anytime we're going to run something intense?

I'm not sure. Anyway, just a little musing from me today.

Howl

P.S. Please don't misinterpret anything I'm trying to say here. Or hate me. :-(

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

I prefer HardCore.

Bring it on, and I am all for Howland's suggestion.

[Relinquish]

Well, I remember a few times in the past before going into a DM event some DMs said something to the extent of. This is a very challenging quest/event and you are likely to die and may not succeed. If anyone wants to back out now I have no problem with it ect ect.

[EvilStrawberry]

I gotta say Hardcore too. Let's face it, nobody -likes- to see their character die (certainly not me), but sometimes it's "alright".

What I'm trying to say is that the Hardcore play style brings on some grief, but I think, a lot more fun. A setting, where the risk of "deleveling" does not exist, would become boring after awhile.

[Yalta]

Depending on the PC i roll up i will sometimes be one and sometimes the other. Often i will roll-up a PC who wont by their alignment/deity etc. get much PVP, others i have created for that very purpose (Ghaundaurites etc.) knowing they may get harsh PVP from the get-go.
 
I'm not sure about an OOC tag for "Hardcore" or "Not Hardcore"... mainly because as you describe there are lots of shades of grey and many will sit inbetween somewhere (i think i would be there - i rarely go for much full-death/full loot wipe the other guy out PVP (though do every now and again), but i'm always happy to have very challenging or "mean" quests/spice from DM's, often as the RP / reputation / IG rewards are great).
 
I would suggest wherever possible IG/IC warning to people (and if not possible the odd OOC tell). I have seen IG warnings done very nicely by our DM's so that it was clear that "This is gonna be bloody dangerous", so those that wanted to take the risk could and those that don't didn't have to.
 
For example, the War or Red Eleint, via IG announcements / speeches it was made clear that PC's had the chance to "be the hero" and go and defend the bridge/city, or you could stay safe in the Governors Tower. It was nicely done and didn't break immersion so that everyone going to the battle with Grand Larson *knew* they were going to get both barrels in the form of spice etc., but also that if they survived they would go down in legend IG.
 
So i would go for your second suggestion Howland.

[Velve]

I'm not sure I'd label myself as either, some days I'm just looking for a good enjoyable time, other times I'm really just looking for some good fights and quite likely, a nice permanent death for my character.

If there was a tag, would there be a way to put it on and off as you please? I'd get a little annoyed if I ended up with a lack of option.

[Sphagnum]

I would, personally, like a warning if a quest/event is going to be Perma Death, not because I don't like difficult quests, but because sometimes you might have a story/plot you wish to finish.
 
I have heard players expressing a dislike against spices, or getting upset when they run into some unexpected difficulties. I have also meet new players who seem disheartened when facing odds that quickly kill their PC, even if they are in a high-level party. This may simple be because they are not "good" with the game mechanics, i.e knowing which potion to use when or how to macro commands, which may make a "difficult spice"  become overwhelming.
 
I would perhaps take into consideration how much time the player has spent online before throwing a difficult spawn at him.

[prestonhunt]

OOC disclaimers, Howl.  Thats all you can do.

[Pup]

I like the idea of "Hard Core PC tags" (sign me up).  I also liked when DMs have given OOC warning of extreme danger so PCs that weren't equipped/comfortable could bail.  I don't want people in my group that aren't willing or able to tow the line.

Just my thoughts.

-The Pup

[Takinbymadness]

I'd say if its going to be horribly, horribly difficult with an intense epic feel, maybe a forewarning is appropriate. Though only in the most extreme cases. Otherwise I personally enjoy surprise on a quest.

Oh, and as a side note, I once experienced a DM quest where the bad guys were actually PC's. They werent portraying the character whose name was over their head, but J random bandits. Only instead of NPC's with 'J-random bandit' over their head, it was PC's and the DM told both sides beforehand to be on subdual mode and once someone 'died' he told the character not to loot the corpse. Then the defeated PC acting as an NPC was ported away to continue their story.

I ADORED that quest, and the chance to work alongside a DM in spicing or creating a quest is no doubt an unparalell experience I personally would love to be a part of.

But in closing, I have never had a bad experience on a DM quest on EfU or EfU: A. I think u guys are doin great.

[Calavera]

There is squishy DM events? lol i never seen that one! I allways assume I will die.

How about something like the Challenge Rating (CR) system in PnP D&D?

Like, each player could rate themselves what CR they find acceptable on a scale of 1-10.

Then, DMs can either look for a specific range or state openly their INTENDED (we know things get crazy sometimes) CR for the quest.

I might like to say something about the wider range of play styles we are experiencing:

EfU has been around for a long time now, and many of the other RP servers out there have dwindled. Yet somehow, we seem to be gathering more players. Maybe this is because when you search the list looking for an RP server, EfU comes up in the top related to quantity of players, not to mention the reputation of being a great RP experience.

Imagine you have been away from the game a year or so and decide to come back. Your old server has like 4 people on there semi-consistently. You look around, WHOA! EfU has like 35 people on, and its  a story RP server, what?!?! Im going in!

These players might be from a wide variety of play-styles, many of the RP servers featured ZERO PvP, and nothing deadly coming from the DMs. Definitely room for all.

One more thing, it takes practice to play on this server. New players are not likely going to be as hardcore as seasoned players. IT also takes some getting used to letting go of your character. Other, more squishy RP servers you might play the same character for months, years even and get very attached to them.

With the CR system mentioned above, all types of play could be accommodated for and keep everyone happy.

[Mort]

I do not like ooc disclaimers. :( -- Consider any Mort[DM] text has a sign of unpredictability and possible hardship.

That's my disclaimer.

[Talir]

Personally, I don't want any tag to place me in any category, because I don't play my characters that way. Often, I stop questing when reaching level 7 or 8 mainly because that is when I devote the character entirely to building a reputation/continue with my 'goals' or get more active in a quest unrelated way. This may mean that I never get to see these amazing high level quests, but I'm comfortable with that because it is my choice to do so.

I am all for a good challenge, even if it has the possibility of killing my character. When there is a DM event or you guys decide to do something for a faction I may be in, I don't want any OOC consideration taken into account based on how I may feel about it. When you lose the sense of risk/threat, how can you say that you have truly accomplished something? If it kills me, it kills me. If I manage to survive and the group accomplishes the goals set forth, then that's great. But even so, I would like there to be a choice on whether to do something or not; with the consequences for either being present. That said, I don't want to be forced into something. I'd like to see the way my character goes to be reflected upon the choices he/she makes. Give me that castle full of goblins and I will happily assault it, as long as it is me crying "Charge!".

The gist of what I'm trying to say (I think) is that let the choice whether to do something or not be there, and give us an idea on what to expect. Then see what the characters have in mind to do.

[bloodynose21]

I wouldn't count myself as a hardcore player but I do enjoy DM spice, however hard/easy it is. I just think that whatever DM's do for the playerbase is a nice, welcome addition to a characters history/life span.
I wouldn't like to see an OOC signal of any sort, as I think it could throw the atmosphere a little, but I am at a loss for what else to suggest?

[Lansert]

Perhaps a rating system not for the Players to tag themselves with but a rating for players to tag a quest with.

After a DM runs a quest they go, so who thought this was hard in a good way, hard in a bad?  Easy in a good way, easy in a bad way?  Then the DMs look at the ratings players tend to give.  They could guess what sort of quests to give to players based on the player(s)' ratings of previous quests.  Also, include which DM hosted the quests that get the ratings.

"Well, so-and-so, here thought the last few quests hosted by, [DM]so-and-so, were too hard for them as a player.  So maybe I should try an easier quest this time."

This idea is probably too complex or too hard on the DMs.  I often do that to people when making "crazy" ideas.

If you want to burn me at the stake for this sorcerous witchcraft idea go ahead, I get use to my ideas being shot down by now.