Level Adjustment.

[9lives]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Caddies]

Meh, fuck the playerbase. If people whinge ban them TBH.

No ECL!

[9lives]

That's a particularly cavalier attitude, Big Mitch.

I could go either way, really. The addition of ECL doesn't bother me, nor would I be particularly phased by its removal - As long as people understood that successful applications would probably become less likely.

[Egon the Monkey]

Fort Mur MK Two?

[Kiaring]

Caddies has a vested interest; in the future, he plans to crush all with a well-placed Orog application/concept. Better times will come. BBN.

I, on the other hand, have no vested interest at all. My interest is very selfish and clear - I currently play a PC that has been level 6 for a few months. I'm terrible at leveling usually, now that my playtimes are sketchier than ever, this is even harder. It's somewhat disconcerting to see 1-week-old characters who outstrip me mechanically and in terms of supplies/consumables. Add to that the fact that I'm playing a 'monstrous' subrace with a -2 to CHA, and I've seen 1-minute-old characters with more influence than I've had on this current PC during his entire lifetime.

This is the perspective of someone currently playing an ECL race. I have no other reason to support Caddies' suggesting, other than the fact that it's hard being a monster when everyone can level faster than you. Then again, everyone can level faster than me when I don't have ECL, so chalk this one down to whining, people!

[derfo]

i was only a monster once but oh man did i hate ECL pretty hard. i think after a week or so of doing every quest i could every night after work i was nearly level 3 and a half

[Ebok]

When I look at the suggestions, I like the sounds of it. Until I think back to those occasions when I've fought with things with Level Adj. 2 or 3. They are very very very scary. Cruzel's idea holds merit in my eyes, but the scripting needed makes me wonder. I do believe we need some Level Adjustments, as those who often get these classes are incredibly skilled at leveling anyway.

As for my opinion on the argument, I believe all LA's should be dropped by one. As the races with ECL +1 dont rate the penalty, and the races that are ECL +2 are a bit too close to being crippled. In this light, the ECL +3's can play, without turning into demi gods.

[Gippy]

Please dismiss the notion that were creatures are scary against anything but easy quest monsters. Please get rid of or lower lycan ECL.

[Mechsword]

No, damnit... I mean Monster Tortuga with Jack-sparrow in a Kobold body!  Can't you get anything right?!  Now, I want to make a Palemaster/RDD/Bard and make all your heads explode, before having it banished to the pit of 'gtfo' on the subplane of 'stfu'.


You take a jump to the left, and a step to the riiiiight... put your hands on your hips, and tuck you knees in tiiiiight! But its the pelvic thrust, that really drives you insa-a-a-ane.... lets do the time warp agaaaaaain!  Lets do the time warp agaaaaaain!

[TheMoonlightBecomesYou]

I like how the player base thinks here. This would be amazing. :D

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Werecreatures and High ECL monsters get more DM attention for being such monsters as it stands. Chances of DM loot is also higher.

In an even fight, a werecreature can slaughter anyone. *(maybe not werecats, those don't even deserve ECL three -.-)

 I understand that these monsters are supposed to be scary mother fuckers. Ymphian werewolves scare the shit out of me, and I bet one of those buggers can slaughter any level 8 werecreature a player designed.

I would LOVE to see Werecreatures terrifying the player base as they are supposed to.

Remove the ECL

[Ebok]

To clarify, I'm actually okay with any of the above and I do agree that the ECLs are too much as they stand. Getting rid of them can work, but if you dont want to do this, then I still propose lowering them by at least one. (some of them need lowered more)

[Sternhund]

Subraces are definitely at a disadvantage, at least at first. It's difficult to reach that point of glory, and harder to survive altogether. However, once a subrace reaches about levels five to six, their awesome stats begin to really pay off. If a subrace character ever reaches 7+, they're a significant force to be reckoned with.

So, there's a cost associated with the extra benefits. I don't see it entirely as a bad thing, because if we got rid of ECL altogether, it would take away many elements of the challenge of being a subrace character.

[Oskar Maxon]

Subraces are definitely at a disadvantage, at least at first. It's difficult to reach that point of glory, and harder to survive altogether. However, once a subrace reaches about levels five to six, their awesome stats begin to really pay off. If a subrace character ever reaches 7+, they're a significant force to be reckoned with.

So, there's a cost associated with the extra benefits. I don't see it entirely as a bad thing, because if we got rid of ECL altogether, it would take away many elements of the challenge of being a subrace character.

Wow, if Cruzel doesn't explode after this then I don't know what will get him. His suggestion was a scaled LA system with perhaps +1 at really low levels, and increasing as the character reaches higher levels.

[Kiaring]

Werecreatures and High ECL monsters get more DM attention for being such monsters as it stands. Chances of DM loot is also higher.

And that is why I (and everyone else, imo) play ECL subraces.

Let me put things into perspective a bit. Tieflings are hated, evil backstabbing monsters no one should suffer, let alone trust. Werecreatures are shapeshifters, and as such are capable of concealing their nature to a degree, but do you really want the price of being able to use your wereform every once in a while to be a 3 level difference to pretty much anyone else? Genasi are weird and otherwordly, two of the four types of Genasi get negative CHA, which is pretty crippling when you consider that not only you will have a harder time leveling, you will also have a harder time becoming influential and feared.

Deep Imaskari (to use but one example - various other non-app subraces are also available, with sizable bonuses) on the other hand are just as suited to the Wizard class as a Tiefling, in terms of ability modifiers. Sure, they'll naturally have 2 less AC, but I'm sure anyone would rather have 10 instead of 12 base AC and pack a couple of hasted ice storms instead. Not to mention they're not devil-blooded monstrosities, so they should have an easier time of making friends/gaining allies/influence. If we're discussing mechanics, ECL is pretty much outmatched across the board, since not only do most of these subraces come with significant RP disadvantages, they're also particularly hard to level up without severe quest grinding.

To sum my position up: Characters currently with ECL already go through a process of screening by the DMs. Tighten this up if necessary, but do away with/relax ECL. The problem with being a werewolf is that you are a werewolf. People naturally want to destroy you for being what you are. The problem with being an Aasimar Paladin is that you're already singled out by pretty much every up-and-coming villain as a possible threat, so you've made enemies from the moment someone examined your character and spotted 'eldritch silvery hair' in your description. The problem with being a Tiefling, or Genasi, is that you get penalties to stats that contrary to what some may think do make every difference between success and failure, survival or defeat, such as WIS and CHA.

The ECL subraces are already hard enough to play with the drawbacks that they inherently carry. ECL is just adding to this unnecessarily, in my opinion. It would be best to do away with, or lower ECL.


A final thought:

This relates to Howland's point. In the past, there have been complaints about the unfairness of certain monster characters making it to higher levels and generally wreaking havoc. But if we look at the heart of the problem, we'll realize that these same characters probably weren't dealt with closer to the start of their villainous careers because people tend to pussyfoot around level 3-5 characters when they're playing a level 8 bulldozer. And they should. So that's that - people are somewhat forced to mollycoddle, in my opinion, ECL characters to a certain degree (YES CORE, YOU FOR EXAMPLE), until suddenly they break a level barrier (5 for some classes, 6 for others, 7 for others yet) and next thing you know, they are, as Sternhund said, a 'force to be reckoned with'.

Do away with ECL, or lower it, and, added to the fact that the player list is gone, I believe people will begin treating subrace characters (especially the more monstrous ones) they way they deserve to be treated. I do not believe it will become 'easier' to play these characters in these circumstances. Quite the contrary, in fact.