Alchemy PvP items

[Random_White_Guy]

I disagree 10,000% with the idea of "Groups of alchemist". Alchemy is supposed to be something hermetic and locked away in a tower doing weird magics and unforseen feats to acquire more power, more secrets, and more hazardous feats to advance.

If anything I think -POTION BREWING AND WAND CRAFTING- should be nerfed as they are supremely devistating for PvP interactions.

The RP of a potion merchant is as follows:

"Sup I need some potions"
"Cool how many"
"Ten haste potions"
"Cool got gold?"
"Yep"
"Cool"
"Thanks"

Alchemy is something that can and has killed countless PCs with risk of PERMA DEATH TO THEIR PCS. Potion Brewers and Wand Crafters are an inexhaustable resource so long as PCs have golds they can have 10,000,000 tools to combat people in PvP and on DM encounters.

The Alchemical system vastly surpasses the Potion and Wand system as alchemical PCs can be hunted and killed, raised up like small gods, use their products to push an agenda, and more. These cries of "Nerf Alchemy" are constant but no one ever seems to care that with two button clicks and minimal RP a PC can go from having 0 haste pots to 10 haste pots.

Hours on end have to be thrown at the alchemical system to get anywhere and even then one mistake can see you turned into a pile of ash on the ground.

A feat, a potion cauldron, limited RP, and empty magic bottles can give PCs almost unlimited resources.

Alchemists are uncovering the secrets of the universe and in my opinion should be pursued by many powers. In the past Gangs have abducted alchemists and forced them to make drugs. I once had a PC who was hired to murder one of Lower's most prominent alchemists by a citizen of Upper Sanctuary.

Potions and Wands are far more broken than Alchemy in every shape, scope, and cycle, and the constant "Alchemy needs nerf" threads bug me when Potions and Wands are so easily made.

Clerics, Bards, WIzards, SOrcerors, take one feat and you can break the server.

Alchemists throw hours, days, weeks, and more into their craft and can die at any moment. That's balanced. That's fair.
[/rant]

[Haer Dalis 83]

Clerics, Bards, Wizards, Sorcerors, take one feat and you can break the server.

Isn't that a bit of an overstatement?

[prestonhunt]

If the original point is that there are alchemy items that make pvp unfair, I think RWG's own rebuttal is rather accurate.

It will always come down to haves, and have-nots.  If Alchemy were not in the mix, it would be the people with potions and wands winning the pvps.  Alchemy provides another element to the pvp dynamic that makes pvp interesting, rather than a rush of potion quaffing, a dispel, then click on the red thing.

If you feel that alchemical items are the way to win fights, then befriend an alchemist and get some, IMO.  Clearly winning fights is the driving motivation behind the original post, and the OP feels unfairly done by, by the addition of so many ways to do so.

[NecronomiconV]

I have to agree with RwG if you think about the rollplay shouldn't potion brewers be considered on the same level of alchemists? As potion brewing in PnP was considered an -alchemical- process, I've noticed here its more "hurr durr cast spell on bottle BAM" now I myself have played several potion brewers and I honestly think potion brewing would be better off having its own tree in the alchemical system (Maybe involving that nifty aqua regia??? Which says its used in potion making??) So potion brewers are encouraged to become actual alchemists and they can put some good rp into it as well. Now some people might be saying that it would be giving alchemists yet more advantage but in truth its just making alchemy complete and making potion brewing some actual business and study as it rply should be. Alchemy has been nerfed hard as it is and many of the OP super items removed, what I think Gloinar is experiencing is also remnants from when it wasn't. Those items are still going to float about, but eventually they will be gone.

As to divine potion brewing I think that is on a different scale.. Perhaps make brewing potions restricted to healing potions (since for priests it really does involve casting prayers.) and some select other potions and integrate the rest into an alchemy tree. As to suggestions on the alchemy tree make it not impossibly hard nor super dangerous just make it take a bit more time and research, with increasing DCs for stronger potions.

I also think that portable kits should reman but perhaps make the scattered ones give bonuses as they are often in dangerous or hostile areas (perhaps make them a bit more hostile too! To make the prospect of a bonus considerable but dangerous)

That's my thought anyways.

[Disco]

Clearly I have missed something. I can not recall a single pvp I have ever been in where an alchemy item have been used, to my knowlege that is.

[Gloinar]

Clearly winning fights is the driving motivation behind the original post, and the OP feels unfairly done by, by the addition of so many ways to do so.

Uhhhhhhh What? No. Sorry I dont care about losing fights at all, I only think that there are a massive amount of Ether items being passed around and it looks rather stupid to watch someone use the same item over and over again. During PvP, during quests, whatever. I think using an abundance of Alchemy created items should come with proper representation of it, through roleplay- which I've yet to see. There is nothing against any particular player, as it isn't a problem with the player, but the items in question. I personally think the server could be better served without such a high amount of Alchemy items as there currently are. I am just one opinion on the matter, however.

[thelotusflower]

I think the main problem is that the same players are consistently, over and over, getting the high tier alchemy items on their characters due to OOC knowledge of the system.  If people conceptualize products from hard-work and experience, there's nothing wrong with that.  But there are players who exploit their knowledge to mass produce things that can completely turn the course of a battle.

[PanamaLane]

I think people are underestimating the time, effort and dangers to alchemy. Sure you can get some nice items out of it. You could also permanently die. The only alchemist I played probably had a half dozen deaths just from recipes. The fact that compressed ether gives you a relatively meager attack twice a day is not a problem. The fact that some PCs roll out with an alchemist and know every dangerous recipe to avoid might be.

[Dangotgam]

If someone used Ethers in PvP, I would be thanking them.  Compared to base damage, they are garbage.  They are absolutely a situation dependent tool, and not some OP means of domination.  The only time I've ever used Ethers in PvP is when I derped and didn't have tanglefoot bags quick slotted  to catch that running pc, who is chugging pots of heal and retreat.  By the way, the 6 or so damage those Ethers did weren't exactly worth it, as said PC was easily able to escape while my PC tried to kill him with papercuts.

Now, in PvE, they are very useful.

As for RPing using them...

Personally, in PvP, I tend not to RP such things prior to a battle.  The reason being is that while I type out a big, fluffy, emote, that other guy is downing potions like it's his job.  I have used them plenty of times in RP not centered on PvP.

Just my two cents.  I think this is being blown way out of proportion.

[Zango_Unchained]

Alchemy can be spammed and turn intense moments into trivialities. Situations in which this happened are the following:

-Fighting the white dragon in Efu:M

-The attack on H'bala's tower by the druids and everyone still on ymph.

Both of these used heavy alchemical supply to turn part or all of it into a no challenge.

Alchemy is there to make single potent and powerful items, not a war chest with eighty firebombs in it, or allowing thirty plus people to wield hammers from the heavens like nothing.

Alchemy is dangerous, it deserves to remain dangerous. And it deserves to be rewarding.

My suggestion is, making dc's fluctuate, that will handle most of the issues in alchemy when it comes to production spamming. If you have an obscenely high score you can handle a variation of five fluctuation up or down at the start but the more you make it the greater the fluctuation and eventually it will be impossible or easy to accomplish, this prevents spam. Making alchemy more chaotic and up to luck then sheer number crunching, it could show a collapse in the weave as you constantly work at just one item.

[Ebok]

To be fair, the system was reworked following the events within the Hbala'n tower, and much of that original wealth has been done away with. What we have now is nothing compared to then.

As for the White Dragon encounter, I just think that Dms should be mindful of what explosives may do the terrain, cave systems, or what impacts may do to massive bags of said glass fire bombs. That being said, the increase and use of WEIGHT as a mitigating power is pretty awesome and effective. You're not going to lug around 120 lbs for 4 mighty fireballs for the hell of it unless you've literally nothing else to carry. Which means less potions, wands, trinkets, etc.

There are some items that havent had their weight increased, and some that maybe should. Although for the most part, The people that enjoy the alchemy system in efu are those that have enjoyed it in the past, so there is a natural understanding of how the system works upon character changeover. That will drastically aid future endeavors, especially since we no longer have research teaching people what is what. There is a learning curve, like in every other part of efu.

That being said, there is something to take away from both RwG's statements and ShadowCs. Dunno, I don't see a big issue here, never have.

[Mort]

As odd as it may sound, Zango is right.

Comparing craft wand/potions which is available to all, easily, to Alchemy -- a system -- that was ridiculously abused by various PCs, including ex-DMs-which-we-wont-name, makes being all those who see 0 interest (myself included) in this boring system at a FRANK disadvantage.

We might not see Level 9 summons crushing faces --  BUT I`m sure that back in the day when you were a PC on the victim side of being abused by alchemical powerhouses, you felt quite ...robbed.

Hence, if that feeling pertains  -- it's a strong hint that this system requires a strong revision ... yet again.

[prestonhunt]

A quick reread of the original post would seem to be objecting to the "compressed ether" item, Mort. This is hardly a powerhouse, allowing you to cast searing light (5) 2/day.

To put it lightly, whoopdy-freaking-doo.

[prestonhunt]

A quick reread of the original post would seem to be objecting to the "compressed ether" item, Mort. This is hardly a powerhouse, allowing you to cast searing light (5) 2/day.

To put it lightly, whoopdy-freaking-doo. Maybe it would be a negative experience if 20 halflings simultaneously dropped out of stealth on you and did it at once, but certainly no more negative than the same 20 halflings dropping out of stealth and shooting you with arrow sneaks.

[granny]

Honestly, there is something wrong with Alchemy, although I don't think it's related to what most people here are saying. I just HATE the "nerf solution" some usually point out to stuff they don't like or understand.

Alchemy/Herbalism is HARD. It's DANGEROUS. Actually, it's FREAKING DAMN DANGEROUS. It's complicated. It's demanding. And if you want to use herbs not being a druid/ ranger, it's EVEN MORE COMPLICATED, unless you don't care for picking clean all herbs.

It's been done several tries of making it even more DANGEROUS. It's been done several "nerfs" in order to make it LESS rewarding. It's been placed several obstacles in order to make it even more COMPLICATED.

And it has not stopped the "nerf cry outs". And it has not stopped people from supposedly abusing it. And it has not made it any better for people like me, who struggle to get how it works, who die on a huge regular basis and die even more when trying a low hp class that can't walk the wilds in safety.

I have never got a really strong item from Alchemy/ Herbalism. I usually am encumbered when I roll an alchemist/ herbalist. I am slightly better when doing it as druid. And it displeases me a lot to see cries for making everything harder.

I think that the suggestion of integrating potion and wand crafting to it is nice. And I think that a more economical system could be added to it in order to bring up more player-to-player interaction. Maybe some sorts of items could be available player-only and there could be long-term rentable shops around the server to push such sort of thing.

I think it'd be better without random DCs, no so many secrets for the easiest stuff. Some logics and some lore-gathering should be allowed and pursued. Give a couple more of less deadly-things for an Alchemist to pursue. And let the better, unique and dangerous for the bolder to pursue and keep secret. Make it less hard to keep, protect and understand a garden as well. Make it possible for a non-druid/ranger to know better (even better) how to harvest herbs without killing them.

I think that we have overdone in the amount of obstacles and they are doing little in adding fun and enjoyment.

People that are complaining about a supposed massive usage of alchemical goods and that they should be RPed seem to forget that most DM loot isn't RPed or even described in people's description. The same with several things we got. In my opinion, this is not Alchemy/ Herbalism fault, but a general lack of care about RPing. Sum to this the stressful PvP situations that you just want to walk out alive and you won't be going to give a crap about describing how you activate the Alchemic Button of Doom against your vile rival