FD and Creative Solutions for our Collective Story Telling

[granny]

Hello, EFU!

I must say that I do love this community. I am a fan of how awesome the cooperative effort around EFU can be. We got a lot of competition (we are a game community after all), still, the center of our work is about cooperation. Because of that and because of this, I got enough inspiration to bring out this discussion that I have been trying to share with you for some while now. My big question here is:

[INDENT]If I am not FDing, what else I am going to do?[/INDENT]

This thread is not to discuss if FD is right or wrong. It is not to discuss if you should or should not FD. It is not to argue about how lame that FD of that guy was or wasn't. Let's focus on the creative brainstorm of neat stuff you usually try to bring or that you would hope to see people bringing up.

As many here, I have VERY often seen myself victim of the "OMG WHAT NOW?" mindset when needing to decide what is the next step to be taken. That moment in which you see yourself forced into making a decision that needs to be coherent, fun, interesting, creative and maybe original. Contrary to book writing, while playing a game we usually need to do it fast and in the middle of several emotional outbursts.

So, in a cooperative effort, I summon thee to aid me in sharing your best solutions for this problem, fellow brethren. Be it out of the box, or be it the usual Disney good-hearted solutions, let's brainstorm!.

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Contributions

A Crescendo of Punishments
[INDENT]That's something I tried once with I'tril. Instead of directly killing a necromancer, I tried to inflict upon them grievous punishments, something that would mark their PCs' stories permanently. The issue with that is that you probably need a DM, sometimes making it impossible to proceed with it.

A shame but I only got to deliver this idea once, when a fellow druid captured a necromancer guy and asked us what to do. I was lucky to be allowed into giving the decision, and that was how this guy lost his tongue and maw. That not only allowed the druids to feel they had somehow did their part. It helped shaping the necromancer's story and characterization while at the same time giving the player a lot of material to work upon.

It felt nice both for him and for us. Way different when I got to kill this awesome dwarven maiden of woe. I wish I had the chance of trying to rehab her and maybe failing as a druid or even maybe succeeding. She had such a nice story...

So, here it is the point: each time you manage to capture your target, you do something to them. Just not theft of their valuables. Something that will really mark their story. Villains and neutral avengers got it best, because they can sometimes not just cause direct harm/ punishment. Maybe instead of it, they could strike something/ someone that their foes cherished the most, prolonging their punishments/ suffering and thus, allowing the drama and the story to develop further. The more they act against your warnings, the more you punish. I wonder which options we might get here that might not need DM assistance. I usually fail to think of them (I am a too DM dependent player). Any ideas? [/INDENT]

You just let them go

[INDENT]Yeah, your PC is the clone of some Disney good hearted princess/ knight that cannot do harm. You are too good, too pure, too kind, too freaking lovely to FD. You hope that your mercy will redeem your villain and teach them to be a better person. So, instead of killing them, you torture them with a sermon about love, friendship and hope.

Or maybe... you are the most wicked villain that just enjoys the cat and mouse game. You will release your foe just to hunt them again. And you tell that to them. Maybe you even complain about how easy it was and because of it being that easy, you take something they valuate a  lot. And next time, it's better for it to be a better challenge or they'll regret dearly.[/INDENT]

You let them go because...

[INDENT]... because you want them to tell something to their friends. Something misleading, something that will further help to achieve your goals. The trick here is to be cunning and to plant the information in such a way that it will grow towards your objectives. And here lies the trouble/ obstacle. Which shenanigans would fit better? Being cunning in this sort of situation isn't easy. Such a tricky thing... [/INDENT]

[Aethereal]

Kudos to you granny, for having the courage to bring this to the fore. It is a discussion that will only lead to the betterment of our roleplaying community.

Whilst I do think some truly creative ideas should be reserved and allowed to be played out in game rather than described OOCly before-the-fact, it should probably also be balanced by giving exposure to what is/was a great feat of enhancing the narrative experience via an alternative to FD in a PvP scenario.

To that end, I want to share two of my favourite all time PvP experiences in EFU, analysing what was done well and why it was so AWESOME and contributed to furthering narrative whilst still building up conflict in the gameworld.

I'll start with an oldie, my first really involving and non-FD PvP experience:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Blood of the Tainted versus Amadeus Aethersee[/COLOR]

[INDENT]Amadeus Aethersee was a very young and very bright sun elven magus, in the times of the Dominion and the Docks of Nebezzdos upon the island of Ymph.

One day, he was returning to the Ziggurat through the Warden's district, a neutral ground pvp wonderland akin to 'the In-between' of the Underdark, without any wards or protections. There he was suddenly and wordlessly set upon by an armed bark skinned woman. Attempting a word of negotiation, he quickly realised words were unwise as his feeble reflexes allowed him to escape the snare of a tanglefoot bag and flee for safe haven. This was his first encounter with a being he had heard about, known as the "Blood of the Tainted," an arachnid shifter who through his inquiries he suspected of being a rare creature known as an Aranaea, or perhaps even, foolishly in his naivety a vampire - curious, most curious a possibility indeed.

This encounter fascinated the elven magus, who was above all else, a curious soul. He wanted to know why he was attacked, and so began a series of communiques and efforts to engage with someone who whilst clearly hostile, seemed to be intriguing to this naive wizard.

The result was an encounter, that was very well planned on the part of the elven magus, yet one where he knew he was most likely going to suffer. Preparing for the worst, he memorised in particular a spell of Masochism (she likes bleeding people, may as well make the most of it) and a spell of Polymorph Self to transmute himself into an arachnid, possibly currying favour with this Blood of the Tainted.

The battle was glorious, involving a lot of fumbling on the part of a PvP noob (me) with some hot spider on spider action, until one was completely dominated by the other. Amadeus lay broken and bloodied before a druidic circle, where the Blood of the Tainted finally spoke to him in earnest, as she drank her fill of the elven magus' crimson essence then cut open the poor elf's palms and bled him almost dry - finally revealing her true identity and aims:

[INDENT]She was, as revealed a half-drow, the taint in her blood was that of the dhaerow. She was clearly a druidic sort, but perhaps more feral and on the fringe as those of Malar can be.[/INDENT]

This Blood of the Tainted then made a singular claim, in exchange for further knowledge and granting him his life, Amadeus must somehow bring down a Tempuran necromancer within the week, and that she would visit him in a few days to check up on his progress...

Amidst feeble pleading that he was but a scholar and his own abilities that evening being testament to his theoretical rather than practical prowess he was left, near death in the druidic circle, now wetted with his own blood... passing out until dawn--with his purpose upon the Archipelago of Ymph, and that of Lycosa, the Blood of the Tainted now bound together yet both to be continued...

The story didn't end there, the conflict escalated, the Blood of Tainted paid him a very personal visit in his own private chambers and the resentment/submission and shadowy ever present threat she posed lingered until, Amadeus had felt, as the bizarre being he was, he had lost a friend when he learnt of her execution atop the Ziggurat.[/INDENT]

---

Now, I realise I've wrote a lot there, more than is likely to be consumed by the typical reader, so I'll summarise my analysis swiftly:

What made this PvP scenario so glorious was that the 'villain' or offending character was more than she seemed, there was a sense of mystery and intrigue from the get go - that made her victims (the more open minded or too-curious-for-their-own-good sort at least) think twice about what was happening and why.

Blood of the Tainted, did not seem to want to kill her victim, she seemed to be driven by her own ideals and seemingly opposed forces of evil (Tempuran necromancer cult).

Regardless of that fact, the aftermath of the PvP and build up towards it involved excellent roleplay and intrigue that could be appreciated by whoever was the loser (need a better word for this, since nobody really loses when the experience is captivating).

The take home lesson here, aside from developing a unique selling point - that attracts INTEREST in your concept - is to plan POST-PvP, that is:

[INDENT]I. Know what you want to get out of it after you best your opponent and do not take too much - better yet, make it something that has no mechanical benefit, but only a purely story related one: e.g. the Blood of the Tainted demanded a task fulfilled, as well as a blood sacrifice to the druidic circle and taste of blood from her victim.

II. Give something back to your victim. This is easiest as a plot hook/revelation, but can be anything, just use your creativity! e.g. Blood of the Tainted revealed a valuable bit of knowledge about herself that meant something to her curious victim: She was half-drow. She also, purely through her actions, revealed her motivations - she wanted to appease the primordial aspects of the natural world, as a druid is wont.[/INDENT]

Although I do have a second different interaction to share with different points to make, it might make this post too burdensome. I look forward to seeing what others have to say. Please do share.

[Random_White_Guy]

I'll start of by saying I get murdered quite often in EFU. I've accepted it as part of my playstyle. Not to derail this great thread but I want to go out on a limb and voice that FD is a good thing and should always be a possibility on EFU. On more than one occasion I've been told by PCs I should use alternate names because when people fight me they know I usually don't kill first.

Death should always be on the table though and as a motivator for realistic RP and consequences. Sometimes PCs -do- need to die, and while it's fun to create differing storylines you must stick to one that fits your PC.

If I'm playing a lowersman thug who has marked off his turf and said any Spellguard or Auxiliary who come around here die, and two auxiliary come in hemming and hawing and picking their noses and challenging me on my claim, their heads are gonna go on pikes. Gangs gotta have a reputation and flaunting authority like that doesn't get you anywhere as a lowersman thug.

If I'm playing a corrupt watcher though who feels that anyone he arrests is suitable for a bribe, and someone tries to kill me and I win, I'm more inclined to lock them up and not press charges but use it as a forced recruitment opportunity of "Work for me or hang for attempting to murder a Watcher".

It's very important to keep FD on the table as leverage and other reasons of realism if it suits you PC to do so. That being said it should always be done as tastefully as possible. Sometimes though death IS unexpected. Sometimes the main character of a movie does get hit by a bus half way through the film.

Sometimes our stories do end early but the beauty of EFU is we can always start another story.

[el groso]

Most of us have been there:

1) You feel bad because you FDed someone and maybe you should not have done it, for several reasons. This will haunt you for a time.

2) You feel like you should actually have FDed, but you did not, simply out of OOC courtesy, or for your selfish self not to feel guilty later. This is ALSO not ok. (in my book)

As for reasons NOT to FD when you probably should ICly, as in subduing a monster, I usually use the easiest one: "It is dead, loot it up and let's go".

Also, now it is official: This is the most recurring subject in EFU.

[VeiledMist]

If I am not FDing, what else I am going to do?

This thread is not to discuss if FD is right or wrong. It is not to discuss if you should or should not FD. It is not to argue about how lame that FD of that guy was or wasn't. Let's focus on the creative brainstorm of neat stuff you usually try to bring or that you would hope to see people bringing up.

Just going to pop that up before this gets derailed any further.  As has been historically shown, FD is never really off the table.  Whether it's been wonderfully, artfully, beautifully done or a straight up gank or something in between.  (Incidentally ... some of my best memories involve PvP and FD, as well as some of my worst.   So this isn't about me trying to poo-poo FD/PvP.  I'm just as curious to see "what else" EFU can come up with)

What's being asked here is "what else can I do if I'm not going to FD?"

[xxWhisperingWindsxx]

If I am not FDing, what else I am going to do?

This thread is not to discuss if FD is right or wrong. It is not to discuss if you should or should not FD. It is not to argue about how lame that FD of that guy was or wasn't. Let's focus on the creative brainstorm of neat stuff you usually try to bring or that you would hope to see people bringing up.

Just going to pop that up before this gets derailed any further.  As has been historically shown, FD is never really off the table.  Whether it's been wonderfully, artfully, beautifully done or a straight up gank or something in between.  (Incidentally ... some of my best memories involve PvP and FD, as well as some of my worst.   So this isn't about me trying to poo-poo FD/PvP.  I'm just as curious to see "what else" EFU can come up with)

What's being asked here is "what else can I do if I'm not going to FD?"

[Aethereal]

Yes, please do stick to the essence of the topic as granny stated.

RwG makes some good points, but let's skip justifying why or why not to FD (as mentioned, it's flogging a thoroughly dead horse).

Bring on your creative ideas and thoughts about what to do INSTEAD OF FD at the end of a PvP encounter. Though I don't doubt it is context sensitive, I am sure there are plenty of good ideas out there swirling inside peoples' minds.

[Paha]

Our post was not to say don't FD. It was only to remind that it's appropriate to think twice, as in not to meet some guys in a group fight and in the heat of a moment get too drawn into it, and decide "Hey. Kiss my boots." And when they don't, you FD. That generally is valid more so than not, and at times even necessary if it really draws out. But in 90% of the situations it might be a good idea to be the bigger, stronger man and just ignore their resistance and warn them of it, then let them go with their tail between their legs.

Honestly, there are dozens posts, there's many threads made by DM's and player alike to give options to FD and what not. FD is big part of efu and it should follow IC route. It is an option even on first encounter. Even if it is, come to that conclusion after thinking twice. "Is there a cooler way to kick this interaction off and expand on it in coming times?" maybe there is. Maybe it is too dangerous. Not all may enjoy it, but you can FD. Just give it a thought.

Lets not get too involved in presenting scenarios and options over and over again, or turn it into an argument of opinions. Everyone has them, and they are very much entitled to them. Our post was to respond to many requests of players that had been honestly considering when they should FD, when not. It is not healthy to get too into arguing what is right or wrong in it, either. Good advice is in place, and we got plenty of it around, but rest should be learned with example and even making some mistakes.

[granny]

Thanks, everyone for the contributions! Here is another of mine!

The Wild Elves[INDENT]



The very D&D source books offer some ideas on the matter. Let me bring you one, the case of most Wild Elves.

The wild elves are really secretive about their territories and about their customs. Some are really aggressive and will kill intruders on the spot. Others will use guerrilla warfare to weaken and scare their enemies (I loved using that hit and run technique with I'tril). And others will use mind spells to capture and erase the intruders' memories about the encounter after being questioned on why they entered their lands. This last part is the big issue here. And, again, we need DMs to oversee you proceeding with it. Personally, I'd go with a charm spell (who told you that charm is useless?) and then turn to hypnotic suggestion RP rolling a couple of will saves and what not to guarantee the effective stickiness of it all.

They entered your dominion, they discovered secrets about you and yours. Still, you don't need to kill them if they don't remember anything, right? If you are clever enough, you might even wipe of their desire of returning or even make them scared of doing so, planting some nasty terrible memory about the area.

Another twist to this idea would be to make them want to do something, to tell someone about something or even to make them return later in order to allow you to slowly and steadily take control of them through hypnosis.

With Matilda I have done some interesting experiences with hypnosis RP and I have discovered that several players are willing to play along if you do it right and carefully (this wouldn't need a DM to oversee if you respect boundaries and go slow, not god-emoting). [/INDENT]

[Pandip]

So a lot of good things have been said here (both for FDing and cautioning against it), but I want to hop in and remind people that it's important to remember there's two sides to every opportunity to FD. When someone gives you the chance to live and, even more impressive, they don't riffle through your pack, you should take that into consideration for the encounter and any subsequent ones.

In the same way that a person has to sometimes discard the notion of winning for the sake of asking, "would letting this guy live better our stories?" the person who's getting spared should be considering the same thing. For instance, if a villain spares you in exchange for your future cooperation in some plot of his, sometimes it's worth considering taking him up on his offer (an interesting twist in your stories) rather than lying or refusing and then going back to your friends to gather a raiding party to get him back (trying to "win" the next encounter). Maybe your high bluff character can take this chance to infiltrate the villain's organization. Maybe, in the end, after being exposed to his methods for so long, you decide that he is the right one, and whatever authority you served beforehand is, in fact, the "villain." You can do a lot of cool things on the server when you're malleable and willing to cooperate, even if it's not quite what you planned for your character, and I can assure you that most people will be happy to see this eagerness for cooperation rewarded.

Just something to think about!

[Mort]

I like it when there is a possibility of death. One should never assume that a first encounter is without threat and the threat of a possible death should be present...

As a dm (and a player), what bothers me deeply is a player's must win/subdue...

For example, you are attacked by a weak named goblin or human bandit pc or npc. It is losing the fight badly... it tries to run away...

Should you pursue and kill it?  Hold person it? Tanglefoot it? So you do catch it... what then? Rob it? Make it grovel at your feet? And let it go?... somehow whenever these conclusions happen... they are unsatisfying for both parties.

if you dont pursue it? It might notice the end of hostility and roleplay a surrender ( i know i like this a LOT for my npcs as it permits me to build the narrative) or it might run away and the story grows... (again for npcs... can lead to a subtantially bigger reward later on....)

of course, there is the grey area where you arent sure if someone is truly running away or just moving, healing and reengaging... The aggresor can sometimes help you dissociate these two situations by emoting his intention such as [tries to run away].

Im writing this from tablet so ill end here.. but there are quite a lot to be said on the subject as it involves trust and sportsmanship and the subtleties of communicating over a message chat.

[Deadlykate]

I would say criminals of the Lowers that don't have a ring and are captured should face some punishment that isn't execution if they don't commit at least a Capital charge. This is my opinion, besides it just builds up more conflict. He may swear revenge on the Uppers, cause some mischief. Which is usually fun for both sides.

Sometimes it is better to let things drag out then just end them then and there.

[DryDepths]

Historically speaking (by which I mean I pulled this out of my ass), the severity of punishment varied widely on how arsed the authorities could be to punish you. As much as Upper loves to waggle it's wang around, it doesn't have the manpower or force to fully pacify lower whilst still waging it's efforts within the machine - or, the Spellguard simply lack the inclination to do so and leave Lower as a sort of 'safety release valve' where they can corral dissidents.

In either case, it behooves a Watcher or Auxiliary to consider politics. Constant harassment and execution of lower natives will eventually lead to reprisals. Besides, so many more interesting punishments exist - Branding, Scarring, Flogging, Caning, Snipping off toes, snipping off individual fingers or the ends of them, tooth pulling, tar and feathering, the stockades.

Just because someone doesn't have a ring doesn't mean they're a monster to be killed. It means they're an animal you can have some fun with. Nothing like a good lynching to get the peasantry feeling warm and cozy. These events were the pay-per-view of their day.

[The Machinist]

Regarding the lower-criminal-execution thing. For me Mort's comment holds:
 

I like it when there is a possibility of death. One should never assume that a first encounter is without threat and the threat of a possible death should be present...

There have been loads of times when lower criminal types have walked away with a beating a little else. As DryDepths says, punishments vary greatly in regard to non-citizens based on the individuals involved.
 
Whilst it should not be (and isn't) common for every non-citizen who is caught to be executed, I think it should remain a threat.
 
This is much the same as the risks Upper law enforcement take when in lower and its close environs. If caught and beaten down you might just walk away with a beating, but depending on the circumstances this may escalate quickly and violently.

[tala_kai]

Well...the whole 'non citizen' issue has been around for a while now. I already accepted that if my PC gets on the nerves of Upper one to many times, in a short period of time, and he'll get caught, he'll probably die.

But I always thought that the thing those "Lower criminals" PCs will hate even more than death, will be a debt bondage to Upper. A sort of, being made to work for the Watchers/Aux/Wayfinders/Civil Service without any payment for a X period of time, OR will have to swear the Ordinants' oaths, and will have to fight aberrants until they die. All in the service for Sanctuary.

It could have many great outcomes like:
1. The PC bitterly do jobs for the factions of Sanctuary, however gradually accepts Upper to be his home. Not the most interesting outcome, but it will bolster the size of the major factions.

2. The PC works for X faction, yet still remains in touch with the "Criminal elements" in Lower, feeding them information, until he is found out and then by all means, FD away, or he successfully manages to coordinate with his fellow Lowermen an attack on that said faction. Conflict is our best friend, and this could be a great one.

3. The same as the one above, but the PC is found out, and is fed false information, that he gives to his past comrades, which will result maybe in his comrades capture.

4. The PC decides that the faction he joined is indeed the right one, and works with, using what he knows, in order to get his past comrades.

5. The PC runs away the first chance he gets (A bit lame imo but IC is IC) and we have a MANHUNT that will resolve in more conflict!

Numerous other possibilities for fun outcomes and conflicts resulted by it, but it's just my own POV. Upper also has some very skilled mages, who could put on the PC a sort of cursed mark, that will activate as soon as he enters Lower (So only way the PC can go there, is by DM supervision).

Be in mind, that I have no idea, ICly or OOCly about the decisions taken regarding the latest deaths, but it's more of a general idea. (Also, it doesn't necessarily have to be a Lower PC, could very well be a Nature one)