Bludgeoning, Flame and Cold Arrows in stacks of 99

[ExileStrife]

There seems to be some kind of mistaken consensus here that a ranged character should be able to beat a melee character in a duel.

[Humoresque]

There seems to be some kind of mistaken consensus here that a ranged character should be able to beat a melee character in a duel.

Agreed. It's just, not possible.

[Jayde Moon]

There seems to be some kind of mistaken consensus here that a ranged character should be able to beat a melee character in a duel.

I think a lot of the people who give you that impression would be content with the idea that a ranged character should be able to have a chance against a melee character in a "duel" if the melee character had to start 200 yards away and close with the ranged character before he could attempt to hit him.

That's just a thought, though.

[Cornith hull]

Or you give the archer the abilty to sumon bows like the one spell where you bring a animated knife to life and it would even the odds likt lev 1 /1bows lev 5/2bows lev 10/3bows
and thier you go archers will soon be alot more popular

[Egon the Monkey]

Yeah. What Jayde said. In a one on one fight, a mage has a chance at range by blasting hold, blind and movement reduction spells. A meleer just closes. A cleric can do either. If you shoot, you've got nothing. Yes, sneaks are good, but that only works with rogue levels and IF the target is flat footed or fighting someone else.

And yes, you can tanglebag someone and plug away, but KD does the same thing for melee vs ranged and never runs out.

Example:
Two characters, PC A and  PC B.

Both have 16 in their mainstat (STR or DEX) 12 in other one. Both are Level 6 Human Fighters with Weapon Spec and all appropriate feats (KD for spear, Rapidshot for bow etc), and both have access to devices or allies to deploy usual buffs. Any buffs that overlap are cancelled out. Both drink a Haste.

Both have a 1d8 Piercing dmg, 3x crits, 2handed weapon. A has a Spear, B has a Wild Orc Longbow.

They start at maximum possible bow range, and B gets initiative.

[hide= This is a bit long but works out the maths]PC A
Damage: 1d8 + 4 (Strength) +1 Magic Weapon + 1-2 (Bull's) + (1d4 + 2 or 3) Fire Dmg (Darkfire).
= 9-22 damage.

Attacks: 2/round,
max dmg/round: 18-44

DR countering: +1 AB, Blur DR is ignored.

Other: 20% conceal vs ranged only (entropic Shield).

PC B
Damage: 1d8+1 (Strength) +1 (Ammunition)
=3-12 damage (+1 in the round the spearman closes to 15 Feet)

Attacks: 2/round, or 3/round with Rapidshot at -2 AB
Max dmg/round: 6-24 or  9-36

DR countering: No way to beat Blur, so -5 to dmg.

Other: AoOs on the PC in melee, -2 to hit on a running target, and the target WILL be running in.[/hide]

Who's going to win that? And that's deliberately rigged to be as even as possible. Now imagine that A has a Greataxe. Or a shield. Or is using Expertise as he charges.

Then look from a gank perspective, with one attacking the other fully buffed from invis with whatever they like, and hitting with a KD/HP wand in the first round. Still comes down in spearman's favour, as the ranged weapon is slower, so someone will reach him likely.

Yes, a bowman as part of a team loaded out with snare devices of all forms can beat an opponent without taking a hit. Possibly. If they are using +1 Darts or a Goblin Shortbow to beat Blur, as Dispel might remove the slowing. But, nobody is ever scared of a single bowman, whereas a single meleer can pull out the intimidation.

I would extend the original suggestion to We Need Scary Ammo.
More ammo that can blind/entangle/Slow/hold/confuse/seriously screw up an oncoming adversary to give you a chance. And in sufficient quantities that you'll have good odds of scoring the effect on someone before you run out of ammo. We do have some +1d4 Acid arrow, but they only work on Good targets. More of these sort of thing please, for Evil and Neutral foes.

Apologies for length, but I seriously want to see sniper PCs with the intimidation factor in their field of PCs like de Sonac or Kriegan.

[dragonfire9000]

Apologies for length, but I seriously want to see sniper PCs with the intimidation factor in their field of PCs like de Sonac or Kriegan.

I agree with you. I feel your dream. And let me tell you, with DM interaction, it is possible. However...

Take this into account. Two men stand forty paces away from you. You were just walking down the road, and suddenly they appear from a rocky outcropping. One man is dressed in darkish brown leather, studded here and there with small, metal discs. He carries a longbow, and has an arrow knocked. The other man id dressed in banded mail, the smallish metal plates glinting in the waning sun of the early evening. He wields a three and a half foot long blade, wickedly curved, with old bloodstains on the sides. Both men have fearsome expressions on their faces. Their intent is obviously to cause you harm.

Who do you pay the most attention to?

[PanamaLane]

I would argue that Odysseus kicked some serious ass in a duel with over 100(?) suitors with his bow. In a sense doesn't the great Achilles also die to a bow shot in a duel? I think its totally reasonable for an archer to win a duel from time to time, but they never will.

Point being, if you're a crack shot, you're a force to be reckoned with, everywhere except in D&D.

That being said, I'm glad you guys are adding some more arrows into the game. And anyone who is discouraged with how their archer is performing should just go ahead and take some rogue levels. No one is going to bust your balls about it and it will make a difference.

[Oskar Maxon]

That's due to the hp system. You'll never kill anyone but a lvl 2 in one shot, even if you pierce his heart (crit?).

[dragonfire9000]

To quote something my momma once told me,

"HP is da divvil!"

[Egon the Monkey]

A side thought, making Arcane Archer easier to get might be a good start too, currently you need to take it at L8 as you need 6 AB AND arcane casting.

If the class was overhauled to be takeable at Level 5, reduce the power of Imbue Arrow, and maybe even remove the race restrictions, it'd really be something.

A high level Barbarian or Fighter focused on a melee weapon is scary. Any character even powerbuilt for a bow isn't. The only exception I can think of would be a 20 DEX Halfling Rogue/Sorc/Assassin dropping a Truestrike Point Blank Rapidshot Death Attack from 15 feet using Fickler Throwing Knives.
[goes off to write the app]

As a side note, that's why I wrote that Agent of Vengeance PrC idea. Death Attack on ranged weapons combines the neccessary snaring AND sneakattack in one, but it's Evil only. A Non-Evil ranged based PrC with Death Attack would be a good reason to Not Piss Off The Sniper.

Possibly a Sniper PrC with Death Attack, Enchant Arrow and Ki Damage>