THE ROCK

[tooh]

Move the rock and let's roll it.

[Caddies]

I'm definately not arguing for keeping the rock. I am suggesting that should it be removed, the reward should be scaled slightly to reflect the difficulty increase.

Difficulty increase from not being able to exploit the AI anymore?

[Yalta]

Things are getting a bit heated.. :(
 
I think Caddies quote below sums it up. Use real features as part of tactics but try not to take the piss.
 

Its perfectly IC to use the cliff angle to get out of range of their sorcerers. In fact, its often plainly idiotic IC not to. Maybe you should stop telling people how to play the game, Cruzel.

[Caddies]

No heat on my part, just amused disagreement that the quest rewards should go up to compensate the lack of AI exploiting now that this issue has gone public.

[Winston Martin]

Maybe have an alternate path leading from the main camp to some distance behind the first cliff wall. Or many narrow footpaths through the cliffs.

[Secutor]

The cliff is, never the less, imperative for survival against fireballz and arrers. If the quest is straightened, cover still needs to be in place.

[Letsplayforfun]

Remove the rock, of course.

Turn the quest into an all rounder single massive battle, imo.

The 'waves' timing sure is neat to allow the pcs to heal a little, and to give that impression of slowly being submerged, but consequence is PCs can and will wait from orcs in a single file: rock, corner, cliff cave in, etc...

[Cruzel]

I say we keep the rock. We just make it trigger a hostile invisble placable nearby to cast CIRCLE OF DEATH at ALL pcs in the ROCK AREA if it is whored.


So instead of being a ROCK of exploits and easier XP and loot, it becomes a ROCK OF DEATH

STAY AWAY FROM THE ROCK RAUGHHH

[Yalta]

Straighten the whole quest with no cliffs, obstacles, rocks or edges to take cover / hide behind.
 
or
 
Make the orcs attack from multiple directions.

[Cornith hull]

Make it a str check so if player wnat to move the rock they can

[I can has fun?]

Since we're on this subject, I'd like to hear someone make a clear distinction between use of effective tactics and AI abuse. I've never seen anyone lame the rock, but my basic assumption has always been that any field advantage you can find in a quest was deliberately put there by the DMs for us to use. Some players have questioned me about this from time to time, and I would like to hear the official answer.

For instance, is there anything wrong with slamming a door in a monster's face? Most mobs will open them anyway, but I've been sent tells about it. What about using archers against a melee target that cannot get to you? This seems like common sense to me, and even the kobolds at Scalemount use this tactic against PCs, but I've been accused of abuse for doing this as well.

Some clarity would be appreciated.

[Cruzel]

but my basic assumption has always been that any field advantage you can find in a quest was deliberately put there by the DMs for us to use. Some players have questioned me about this from time to time, and I would like to hear the official answer.

For instance, is there anything wrong with slamming a door in a monster's face? Most mobs will open them anyway, but I've been sent tells about it. What about using archers against a melee target that cannot get to you? This seems like common sense to me, and even the kobolds at Scalemount use this tactic against PCs, but I've been accused of abuse for doing this as well.

[hide="Long Answer, Kind of offtopic"]
I have asked this in the past, and it's a slippery slope - One that largely depends on HOW the monster cannot get to you.

If it's stuck by a placable or a small stream that (Common sense) would dictate that it should easily be able to pass but cannot because the AI is dumb, Don't do it. That is pretty clear abuse.

Now however if you are on say a cliff that the enemy cannot climb (There is no way around/up that the monster could take - And it's not something that cna climb walls like a spider or something) Shooting them from the cliffs is not so bad, but its still kind of exploiting because almost no intelligent creature would simply stand there and get shot.



To me, Door slamming is kind of lame because of one thing ; ATTACK FOCUS. I have seen people do this to shift focus from themselves to another PC. Now, this CAN be perfectly IC, but as soon as the door makes the NPC lose sight of the PC,  there is a very good chance the perception scripts will give them a new target.



Abuse of the AI is pure common sense, To be honest.  Just think about behaviour! Bottlenecking foes is one thing, and a great strategy. But when there is a clear way around that the monsters can easily see and SHOULD take, but can't because of the AI, that  Starts to turn to abuse if you bottleneck them in a spot where you know this will happen, like THE ROCK.

Ledge/stream shooting is also pretty common sense. I see this most on gnolls, people picking off the elites/elite shamans/other up close dudes while they are stuck on barricades. Big no-no, Guys. It's definately not fun when these big scary meleer's are stopped by a few twigs and some shallow water. Quests can be fun when they are easy, but being too easy because of lameness is never fun!

Probably the MOST common AI abuse I see is 'Luring' one by one with a ranged weapon! If there is a group of foes, unless the creatures are -really, really stupid- (Like, We're talking mentally retarded levels here - Which pretty much NO monster/creature you would see on a quest has, with the exception of like, low level zombies and ghouls, and other nonsentient creatures!) They are not going to just stand around picking their ass while their comrades are charging/shooting.  If you're going to try to pull some of a large group away, pull them in groups. Shoot any of them that you have sight of to pull them all in, or just let them see you if you creep close, whatever. You get the idea, but 1by1 when there is a LARGE group does not make sense, and makes almost any quest WAY too easy (not to mention too LONG) to be fun.



[/hide]

[dragonfire9000]

It's hard when three warlord's spawn and a lag-spike hits.... simultaneously.

[Nihm]

I think the AI should stop using its "fireball launches from across five screens wayyy further than a pc could ever cast" exploit and stop using the "archers can still target invisible people at full range" exploit, and stop using the "I can see through cliffs and around corners to get you" exploit.
 
Oh and Cruzel, since your screenshot only showed the rock area, of course nobody can see the orc loots anywhere else.

[Mort]

You can do that 'exploit' with PCs, just zoom in on your PC and look far and you'll be able to target people from far far far away.

I do this all the time to put pressure on people and used with PCs too. It's very deadly to receive 4 hasted isaac missile storm from two screens away from another PC (I got this thrown on me once, very much instant panic!).

...

As for exploits in map. It's really really really annoying me that it has come down to this. One of my main consideration in designing such quests is usually artistic and if I have to remove every placeable and make the land FLAT and STRAIGHT in order to avoid exploit, it will be a borefest soon.