Improved Invisibility and Stoneskin Change

[Vlaid]

For a while it has irked me how necessary II is in PVE, even if there's prevelant dispels it absorbs a lot more damage than Stoneskin, so you just pretty much need to use it if you can. So I'd suggest the following:

Stoneskin now, after depleting its normal 10 damage/level, leaves a lasting 5/+4 buff on the target which lasts for turn/level (dispellable like normal)

Improved Invisibilty and Stoneskin can no longer both be active at the same time. If one is cast while another is active the previous spell is removed and the new spell is applied instead.

Has some downsides especially when put on a barbarian or for classes that didn't have access to II anyway like Druid and Clerics.

[Renouncer]

Perhaps with the addendum that if both spells are self cast they could remain in effect? Ie. A wizard could buff themselves with II and stoneskin up concurrently, but couldn't apply both effects to an ally.

[Dredi]

So, to eliminate uncertainty here: What do you feel is the core issue here?
That Improved invisibility is too strong?
That stoneskin is too weak?
That casters who have access to both are too strong?

The suggestions are a bit all over the place in what they would acheive.

My personal opinion is as such:

Improved invisibility is definately the gold standard in EFU, because not taking damage is preferable to taking Damage reduction pool damage in practically any conceivable situation.
Stoneskin by comparison is greatly deminished in its power in EFU  as a setting, a spell functioning as what is essentially buffer HP  against phys damage is considerably less useful in a game world where someone taking damage and other people being active to heal that damage is a core part of the gameplay loop. This is further compounded by Stoneskins severely reduced duration which relegate it from being a useful "Caster Anti-Burst" buff, to "Only ever potion/wand this for emergencies" because preparing it as a spell implies spending multiple high level spell slots entirely on yourself for the duration of a single quest, for defence.

I feel stoneskin has a place in EFU, but at present the short duration is really hurting that. - So my suggestion would be more along the lines of: When self-cast (as a spell, not from items, exceptions may apply) duration is increased to 2-3 minutes per level froim its current 1minute per level.
This would allow a single stoneskin spell to function as a safty barrier to more aggressive mages, allowing mages to use evocations and other offencive spells without needing to worry about losing their invisibility and becoming a big target, without also needing to invest multiple high level slots on their own survival.

If we then feel like other 4th level buffing spells should be introduced to cover some perceived gap in the available options for PVE then we could consider this as an alternative spell perhaps, or allow the existing spells to function differently under certain circumstances, for example having 5/+3 or 5/+2 DR (no pool)) when having the spell cast by a player once the 10/+5 damage pool has been exhausted as you have suggested. Perhaps we could introduce alternative casting outcomes for the spell with an additional submenu, like we see for protection from good/evil/chaos etc.
Have Stoneskin (Focused) which has a lingering effect but shorter duration, versus Stoneskin (Contingency) for original effect with longer duration.

I dont feel however that the suggestion of nerfing Improved invisibility's interaction with stoneskin, in order to make stoneskin feel more effective when used is the correct way to approach this however and that this would greatly impact casters from a PVP perspective.

[Diabl0658]

Should make it a 5/+1 or 5/+2 if anything so players can still overcome it with magic weapon or greater magic weapon if you go this route, instead of a 5/+4

[Astegard]

Improved invisibility also has a hard counter in "invisibility purge" which removes both the invisibility as well as the evasion % chance.
Improved invis is also mainly used for the 50% evasion that lasts long. So if stoneskin is buffed it would just be combined with displacement making fighter types a lot stronger with potions so if implemented should be a Caster only thing.
The 5/+4 also further hard nerfs dual wield builds and promotes big damage to get over DR. (aka high crits) so doubt that's desirable.

Honestly a very tough thing to change with a ton of aspects. I would not know where to go.
Maybe a % to slash/blunt/pierce rather than 5/+4 dr as this scales with damage taken rather than affecting 1h very hard?

[Vlaid]

There's two issues: II is too good/economical and Stoneskin is too weak because it offers no lasting reduction to damage like II.

As long as you can't have both up at the same time it seems like a reasonable change to me. I think people still would take II most of the time over stoneskin.

Maybe some DI instead of 5/+4 but again, barbarians and their DI stacking make everything problematic  :o

[One_With_Nature]

Both spells are already some of the strongest 4th circle spells in the setting, otherwise it wouldn't be peoples go to choice for 4th circle wands for example. Improved invisibility is just far more powerful because its just too good. I would argue a case for Improved invis being 30% concealment (40/50 with SF/GSF Illusion), but on the other hand there is content that is challenging enough that you almost need to have improved invis to survive it. Making stoneskin better is probably not the solution as it will make casters even stronger then they already are. Would be a nice reward though for people who actually focus on illusion to have the 30/40/50% concealment and 30% concealment puts it more on par with stoneskin, while not being completely useless.

[SunrypeSlim]

I politely disagree that this needs changing.

Firstly,  not all spells need to be as strong as other spells. Secondly, Blindfight.

Thirdly, if II is necessary in PvE, it sounds like PvE needs the rebalancing.

[VanillaPudding]

In PVE, this would literally only effect the higher end of quests and accomplish almost nothing else but make them more of a hassle.

In PVP, this would further empower some of the strongest classes in the efu world that rely upon displacement way more than improved invisibility, and have access to stoneskin vials, etc.

Our barbarian overlords are strong enough without nerfing more classes for them to one hit quit with a rage click :)

[Don Nadie]

I think that this shouldn't be changed on two grounds:

1- PvE is balanced arround both existing, and often both are necessary to survive/not spend all your critical healings.

2- These are lvl 4 spells, which means that you're giving up valuable resources (knowing them, or the 8k of a wand) forhaving access to them both.