Changes to Phantasmal Killer

[Kiaring]

Hello!

If this sounds super self-serving, it certainly might be! Full disclosure, I've been playing a character who uses Phantasmal Killer, a lot.

I thought it would be very nice, if possible to beef up the spell with a flavorful change:

Suggestion: No will save if the target is resting.  The spell has wildly different results, and isn't really that useful in questing PvE. A lot of enemies are immune to it. I understand there might not be a lot of desire to make DEATH MAGIC even more powerful than it is, and that certain simple spells that used to grant immunity to it no longer do, but in favor of this change I would submit it makes perfect IC sense (you have no chance to disbelieve something like that if it invades your dreams) in my opinion, and that the spell is scarier than it is actually effective. One way to balance this change is to make sure resting targets always get subdued, can't be FD'd, so you prevent insta-ganking from snipes. Maybe this only works with SF/GSF illusion? I don't know!


Yeah maybe I just am obsessed with this spell atm <_<

[Paha]

I'll look into it. It is niche but very reasonable idea.

[greypawn]

Hello!

If this sounds super self-serving, it certainly might be! Full disclosure, I've been playing a character who uses Phantasmal Killer, a lot.

I thought it would be very nice, if possible to beef up the spell with a flavorful change:

Suggestion: No will save if the target is resting.  The spell has wildly different results, and isn't really that useful in questing PvE. A lot of enemies are immune to it. I understand there might not be a lot of desire to make DEATH MAGIC even more powerful than it is, and that certain simple spells that used to grant immunity to it no longer do, but in favor of this change I would submit it makes perfect IC sense (you have no chance to disbelieve something like that if it invades your dreams) in my opinion, and that the spell is scarier than it is actually effective. One way to balance this change is to make sure resting targets always get subdued, can't be FD'd, so you prevent insta-ganking from snipes. Maybe this only works with SF/GSF illusion? I don't know!


Yeah maybe I just am obsessed with this spell atm <_<

Would this also make a sleep spell to phantasmal killer combo vicious?

[CB]

I don't think that a level 4 insta kill spell would need to be made any better than it is.  Sure it's the most easily saved against (and immunity giving) death spell around, but it's also accessible at a crazy level 7.  Anything that'd make this spell stronger in any way is a bad idea in my book.  Only way it could be justified would be if it brought the target to 1d4 hp instead of subdual, because subdual is effectively the same thing as death in the vast majority of situations.

[Kiaring]

Like you said, CB, it's easily saved and protected against. If you save, it either does nothing,  or very low damage. The argument could be made level 7 (8, in my character's case) is too low for DEATH MAGIC, but I would already consider its uses so 'niche', as paha said, that this is basically buffing one specific instance, in which target characters are supposed (in my opinion) to already be at massive disadvantage. I am totally on board with 1d4 HP left, to give the other player SOME way to react, but managing to get inside a faction HQ or doing the deed in an inn, for example, would already require DM oversight.

I just think the spell albeit very powerful is underused. I understand it is a super scary spell but again I would contend right now it feels scarier than it actually is.

Sleep effect + PhK combo feels like a super nice synergy, worth exploring too. Maybe the sleep effect is "deep sleep" and penalties could apply differently than those during rest.

[Paha]

If target has began a rest, PhK will skip the will saving, but person will still throw Fortitude vs death. Should it succeed, they will suffer heavy damage that is lessened by persons consitution. It can still subdue them if their hp is low to begin with. If they fail Fortitude save, they will still suffer the death effect.

[Paha]

I feel the sleep effect is cool as well but it needs few more things that I did not have time to sort out as there is a lot of other stuff going on, but I will likely investigate it as well. As I said, these are niche options, but fitting to the spell, and provide a challenge for someone to make use of it. It is not easy but if you get to that point - well, it seems fair game to me that it can work like suggested.

[Bacon_Cheese_Burger]

Dont you need to be able to "see the illusion" in order to be scared to death? How can you see it when you are asleep?

[Paha]

In ideal sense. While I won't step in anyones imagination in that and one could play it in many ways, it feels fitting that catching someone so unguarded and unexpecting, it can play them being woken up by such a sudden horror that is the phantasmal killer, or it being an actual nightmare manifested. In many ways I could see argument for it being more fitting for Dream Eater perk, but this gives the phantasmal killer a niche, narrow case. Rest/sleep is one of those kind rare moments that fit the idea of being surprised completely unguard.

[Kiaring]

Dont you need to be able to "see the illusion" in order to be scared to death? How can you see it when you are asleep?

Your visual cortex is perfectly capable of 'imagination' (creating images in your mind's eye) even as you sleep.

The suggestion also mostly comes from the same place as paha's point of view - if you have managed to infiltrate someone's SLEEPING QUARTERS and catch them while they REST, that situation should yield major bonuses (and it already does if you are a fighter, for example - let's not forget the blindness effect is applied, and all buffs are lowered - a fighter rogue could easily deal upwards of 80 damage before anyone realizes what is happening).  Let's not forget that even in this very specific instance, you still have to account for your getaway, which is no easy feat in and of itself.

Playing it is, as paha said, open to interpretation, but I have already come up with quite a bit of it: You invade someone's dreams with the horrid apparition - they can see it, but have no hope of 'disbelieving it'. Or, as paha stated, they cause the target to be startled - someone suggested making such an event lower the target's HP to 1d4, I think that would be similar to 'you wake up JUST as you are about to die in a dream' - but in this case, it's no ordinary dream but the product of some DEATH MAGIKZ spell.

[Bacon_Cheese_Burger]

I LOVE the idea of getting a massive bonus to attacking a resting PC (not from sleep spell) But i dont see why a PHK would be more effective, than a dagger in the throat? 
Personaly i dont think we need to make death magic more easy to use (though attacking a resting pc would still be rare, so its not a big deal) I would like this lvl 4 spell to get a little buff maybe.. how about it making the target flee for 1 round?

[Morphine]

This mechanic sounds cool on paper, but it encourages FD ganks with minimal roleplay involved. It's a hit and run tactic.
Are we going to get locks with every inn resting area if this change happens?

[Paha]

If someone wants to kill a person while they are resting, they can do it plenty well enough already. You will have no buffs or spells on you, and you are blinded and having all negative affixes in engine on you.

This will not make inn ganking or such any different if one really wants to do it.