Rebalance recovery XP to discourage "Powerquest Physiotherapy"

[Egon the Monkey]

I'm no longer sure what the super-harsh XP loss is meant to achieve in a high-conflict server, as it pushes even harder for people to quest their levels back up so they don't end up behind their PvP rivals. Recovery XP and not losing your pack is a massive improvement compared to the old days, but it doesn't promote roleplaying recovery from injury. Quite the reverse.  The main effect of the death system seems to be to keep PCs on the quest treadmill. 1/3 of your XP is so harsh that it discourages taking any big risks on high level PCs as you have more and more to lose. And you can't buy a scroll of Raise Dead to hang onto in order to take the edge off respawning.

Plus, let's face it, the majority of deaths at higher levels are Bad Luck Crits or other things that you can't avoid. As opposed to stuff you brought on yourself. So it's not so much an incentive to avoid being reckless, as to avoid any sort of risk.

• Recovery XP is not a major contributor to recovery for most PCs, as questing eats into your total amount of recovery XP. 
• If you die twice, it's even more frustrating as you lose the recovery XP you are owed from the last death.
• Questing is simply a more efficient use of EfU time when it comes to getting XP back anyway.
• I might not find doing the same quests all the time fun, but want the levels back for higher level spells/more skills/whatever else helps with my PC's current ring running, rivalry, etc.

Suggestion:
Make Recovery XP give you the full amount of XP you lost, up to the highest level you reached on the PC. Quest XP would count against this as before. Boost recovery XP up to 100-150 per tick, so it's a better use of your time than Quest Train Physiotherapy. You have a reason to decline Doing All the Quests, as you regain your previous strength through more interesting RP.

Benefits

• Passive recovery of XP would mean that the incentive to spam quests would be lowered. Rather than recover from serious injury by smashing up monsters like a junksnuff-fueled maniac, you could RP through having taken a beating and deciding to take a rest.
• This would reduce the chance for death spirals when a player is frustrated and recklessly hitting quests to try and get back their levels.
• Ringrunning would likewise be less connected to the Quest Treadmill. It's a dangerous subgame, and losing levels there wouldn't require you to pull back and smash up goblins to recover. You could recover while pursuing your actual goals, and know the lost levels are a temporary penalty that will go away with time, rather than requiring some powerquesting. You've be rewarded for persevering, not powerquesting
• Gold bloat and quest spamming would go down a bit, as people wouldn't have that frustration fueled drive to play quest after quest to recoup their losses.
• EfU becomes a better game for characters that want to concentrate on political conflict, or exploration, or anything else that doesn't generate guaranteed XP
• EfU remains a game with plenty of innate risk, but because the risk doesn't cause permanent setbacks, it's a lot less frustrating. You can "walk it off", rather then get into that annoyed powergamer mindset every time you fugue.
• The game doesn't get any "easier", but there is now a recovery option that doesn't involve endless, endless Morghouls :P

[/list]

[Kiaring]

Guys, I'm not even joking, I just died 420 XP from level 9, and I have the exact same feeling. Exact same. I was even going to write a suggestions post, I'm glad Egon has raised the issue in such a thoughtful way.

My death was completely avoidable, I did something stupid, but I, for the life of me, can't understand what the harsh XP penalty is supposed to accomplish, especially when coupled with the random nature of questing and the treadmill effect, both very capably described by Egon in the OP here.

I have a feeling that my character has progressed to that level 9 threshold, in terms of character interactions, relationships to other PCs and to the setting. She has been around for two months, now. She has gotten to the point where I have 6 and 7 instances of some quests having been taken, with the majority of quests I will have to 'grind' in order to get back to where I was falling in the 4-6 times done range.

Doing a quest the first time on EfU is an absolute joy. And doing it for the first time with a new character is also a suitably enjoyable experience. I love the questing on EfU, always have, and I'm keenly aware of how amazingly EFUQS and the general level design are able to use the by now ancient NWN platform to create something that is truly engaging, and indeed very reminiscent of PnP in the best way possible. However, I feel like the Quest Train Physiotherapy mentality is what drives a lot of us into exhaustion, and burns what could be otherwise time spent RP'ing interactions, plotting, exploring and discovering the setting into repeating the same quests, which, by the time you've done 5 or 6 times, with that character, on that same level range, there's very little that can be done differently.

I had this other idea, which I'll add to the discussion:

Suggestion: Create simple dialog-based quests that are designed to strengthen a character's links to the setting, and tie them into bonuses for Recovery XP.
Example 1: The Royal Archivist offers a dialog-based quest that tests a Peerage citizen character's knowledge of the setting. From a pool of 12 randomly-selected questions, your character must answer 6, and if they get 4 right, they get a bonus to their recovery XP.  Other NPCs of similar standing can offer Ticker and Ponds-based versions, with their own custom questions and answers.  These are designed to solidify a character's relationship to the setting - maybe DMs can use the right answers to hammer home certain points about portrayal of different regions, or maybe they can reward attentive players by putting some information related to the more recent goings-on in the setting, IE, "A prisoner of our King has recently been released from ancient bondage, threatening us all. Do you know the name of this creature? What did the creature do as a means to celebrate its freedom?"  - Answer, "Harad. The freed being decided to throw a party, in which other prisoners were pitted against challengers, in single combat to the death."

Obviously, that's just a simple example. I wouldn't even understand enough about EfU to write a couple of these, but yeah, I think you get the idea.

These quests would only work on Recovery XP bonuses. They can, for example, apply bonuses for a duration (1 week, for instance) and can be rewened, if necessary, by taking the quest again, and answering correctly. Drawing from a random question pool might give this a little variability. Obviously, at some point it'll become more of a rote memorization thing, but just like we rely on the player base not to spoil information about Deep Rings and such, we'd rely on people not to share this information with others OOCly, and not metagame it between characters.

This is just one such idea. Maybe others could be brought to the table, so that we don't feel like we're simply throwing XP at characters who lost it, but it actually feels like you are rewarding characters that have learned/developed a little more, over simple rinse-and-repeat powerquesting.

[sankarul]

I agree with the whole idea of the point. Whenever I lose a few levels to a death, my first thought is "I want this back," no matter how much I ended up losing.

I am unsure on the balance on it all though. I, personally, would not mind it if we were given back all XP over time, perhaps a number of hours based on the level we were at when we died. Die at 10? Be online for 10 hours to get it all back. Might be a lot, but.. better than "get nothing back", and gives you an incentive to go around and just RP around town for 10 hours. Better than just grinding the XP train at least.

So. If the XP punishment is purely to regulate levels? I don't know if it's doing it. People will grind it all back. If it's just to punish people? Losing the XP and not having it for a good number of hours will be punishing, still.

I like the idea of more recovery XP than just the 30-(lvl) %, and perhaps its recovery speed based on how much you lost. All in all, I think it would promote more RP.

[CB]

I hate, HATE, losing levels to deaths, especially shitty ones.  Then i get salty for a few minutes, annoyed for a few more, and then i realize that the harsh death system is one of the reasons i play here.  Danger and the risk of losing levels, or even your character, is what makes things rewarding in the end. My (admittedly humble) opinion.

[Blue41]

Death still matters, you're still going to lose those levels/exp. This is more about how it comes back. It can feel crippling to be pushing conflict and suffer a death, which is fine. The usual solution may be less preferable to DMs, because in order to feel capable of pushing that conflict again, the instinct is to hop on the quest train and griiiiiind, because the alternative of continuing to act like the death didn't happen may be a more permanent death.

In the process of grinding, plots get stalled (because I can't duel/hunt a monster/ ruin the world at level 5) whereas the alternative suggested here- recovery exp trickling in while the character tries to walk it off, and can interact with the world in other ways than quest sendings- may feel a little more natural.

[Paha]

In short.

Xp penalty is the penalty in failing or having bad luck. Encountering a clear point of loss. Something you want to avoid.

It's not clever, or somehow good, constructive or positive thing. But the consequence of it achieves a very old intention: People hating and fearing it. While I fully, truly, acknowledge all arguments about what I am going to say, I feel it is necessary. Risk vs reward, and in here reward is many layered. Playing a character, interesting concept, loot, rewards, power, infamy, what ever it might be. Surviving. You could more safely achieve certain stage of being and just stay there, not take any risks, but it also stands that you may not have possibilities to triumph in anything bigger. Not always bad that either, as small things in every day interaction accumulate to memorable and important deeds and existence, too, even if it's not as often.

Funny enough, recovery xp was made as a by product of DM simply wanting there to be little something for less questing people, wallflowers and those that may use more time but not quest as much, to get little back from that penalty, while others who are active anyway, will get it back faster. It was a little nudge to those who simply struggle to quest as much, no matter what - never a penalty for people that quest because they get things faster anyway. Active people earn their xp, yes, no denying that, but for good or worse, it was our way of acknowledging that people are different and some will not be able to reach as high as others. It was only a boon when there would not be anything otherwise, but like players, some DM's have also in time viewed it as somekind demerit to morale for just existing.

So, as I've had this discussion over a decade here and there, I present my view on it as I am likely the one who must do whatever is done, if anything at all:

1.) Present me very very short and concise, easy to read in a glance summary of your optional idea. If you can do logical process steps a bit, always good, but no worries if you can put it in simple words. (Logical being technical ideas. Math, numbers, percentage and steps of how it functions as to helping the process of coding it or editing it)
2.) Consider why penalty, to at least us old school players and in efu feels like it's important. If you disagree, then I am happy to see your thought on it as some have pointed out here, but what would be a feared risk factor or something that makes death and failure have that weight.

Unfortunately reading pure text when I try to look at matters of math or reasons for these sort of systems is difficult and time consuming, and as we have a lot of stuff to read every day, I lean on my practical engineer's nature and rely on easy to read bits. We will always have a penalty, because that's what we just believe feels necessary and desired for death to be something you want to avoid, and be treated seriously. But ideas are welcome.

[whyemmdee]

 EFU is a volatile environment, there are characters that achieve in days what others will not be able to do in months due to a combination of factors. Levels and XP amounts to some part of that, but not as large as some people would think!

Dying is something you always want to avoid at all costs. In a game as archaic as NWN there is often little room for creativity when it comes to wanting to create a deterrence for something that should/needs to be avoided other than what is basically a punishment: losing progress for dying. It sucks, true, but take solace in the fact that it's not just you, but everyone else as well.

Increasing XP recovery rate after a death and more quests in general would I think strike a nice balance for the time being?

[TheShadow]

Hey. I was reading this, and my immediate reaction is “I like this.”

Not having to grind would be a major boon to playing more characters - A death wouldn’t cost me 2 weeks of time never to be regained without an endless grind where my time is the commodity being “wasted”.

However, a few caveats that would change the meta of the server should be attached.

First, i truly think that levels 9-10+ should remain exclusive and not a “hey i grinded once, now i’m always  high level.” Xp lost past the minimum of level 8 (25000?) should be totally lost, imo, on death.

I’m not sure how to code this, but something like removing 30% xp up to the threshold (25000?) to be reapplied as ticks of 100 or 150 would still make death painful in the short term. Removing 100% of xp past that threshold would especially make high level death something to be feared, as it is, while still allowing people to be “effective” at level 8.


Secondly, we could significantly slow the leveling rate to compensate, so that everyone isin’t instantly and near permanently level 8.

Low level quests could still allow a person to reach level 4-5 quickly, but the medium level quests could have their xp rates significantly lowered, to like 100-200 a quest at most. Yes, you could still grind, but it’d take time and dm granted xp would be significantly more valuable.

Third, dm granted xp would be significantly more valuable. It would allow a dm and a pc to get above the level 8 threshold for long term, cool, influential pc’s. For example, jouvander got 9.1k perma xp or something like that, which would allow him to be perma level 9 of he died, though each death would be short term painful.


I don’t know if this is “better” than our current meta, but its what i think of when i read this post.

Appendum: Additionally, exploration xp could be made permanent and tagged as dm xp. It would need some minor rebalancing, but a haled adventurer who has seen ring 30 SHOULD be more influential and veteran than a 2 week old pc who grinded trolls 50 times. This would definitely make sticking to a pc of higher value, and permanent death more significant if you *lost* everything. As it is, exploration xp is a one time boost, that you lose in totality on death. If you die and use most of your supply on a high level pc, short of dm xp and loot, there’s very little to incentivise you *not* to start fresh with a new pc, of you’re just going to have to grind again. Or just leave efu as it might be too much time to spend.

[Legebril]

It is commonly known by player that seeing them suffer is the rewarding part of DMs daily life and taking away that little joy of seeing  players gang-banged by a raucously OP spawn of mobs/boss would be totally unfair.
Point of playing on hardcore PW is learning dynamics and phasing of it, that what makes EFU different from the rest of servers.

Remember one time when you, two of your friends and those 3 summons went on quest of eradicating goblins in the dips? That sweet moment when you have all descend down into their lair and almost instantly got struck by 3 fireballs in a row? This is kind of world EFU is, it kicks you in the gut over and over until your supposed-to-be-fearsome Barbarian toon turns into pussy and lets other party members enter next area first so that they get punched first.
And then, finally, you are starting to be super careful and stop dying. At least for some time.

But hey, its not all bad, even if you learn the phase of the PW and actually learn how to play and progress on the server,  by reaching that sweet 9-10 your life turns into lonely hell because most of your friends are stuck in  endless-lower-lvl-questing-loops, now  begins the part of your journey which is mostly composed of drinking yourself to death in the Open Door.
Seeing that depressed Richard Smith(did he even die once???), sitting on the edge of Wards bridge silently, depressingly gazing into the waters of the canal smashes my heart as a player. Which brings me to the point.

Would having more high level characters that are actually online enchant aspect of exploration on EFU PW ? Yes.
Would it be more fun to actually allow  players to explore more of the PW, proceed beyond 95th ring, and not to get stuck in endless-questing-for-xp-loop? I think so.
Would it make veteran players(ones that are around from 1st chapter) be less shameful when they are asked 'hey, how deep did you venture in the rings?'. For sure.[/li][/list]


If Dev team  agrees at least to some extent to things above, then perhaps it could be of benefit to review  current dynamics and find  that golden middle of  challenge/fun in current chapter setting.

"Change is the Only constant" <c> Bashar

[Paha]

It is commonly known by player that seeing them suffer is the rewarding part of DMs daily life

I have to say, that even as a joke these things feel wrong to me. One may say it as a joke, but there is nothing fun in seeing player suffer. I wish to make that perfectly clear and hope people can leave that thought behind. We are not literally wasting time to make people suffer. Seeing that characters struggle, suffer even if you want, and then have chances to triumph are moments we enjoy. So no, don't make these jokes, because they have nothing to do with the discussion.

Simple fact is that without the penalty and fear of loss, things would be boring. It gives it meaning to survive and not die. People would keep and achieve their peak point and never be moved from it or be shaken of any risk. As it is, many rewards are very good already. Unfortunately this aspect itself is not very likely to change, because efu has always felt the want and need for death to be scary and something you want to avoid even if it's not permanent death.

Ring running as such is what we intend it to be at it keeps getting iterated and worked with time, but will not so easily be opened, and is not part of this discussion.

Keep the suggestion on topic for each thread and focus on concise points.

Back to topic: It is also option we just remove the xp tick completely and return to original state of not having any of recovery xp ticks, if there is some bad feels for it.

[RNN]

I'd suggest having recovery XP continue to tic to the XP you were before you died, but never beyond that (So if you earn XP from other sources you're merely recovering faster). That way you can spend your time RPing and over a long period of time you will eventually recover from your death. It'd still be a major penalty since you'd be low level for an extensive period of time.

eg:If you died at 30000, and dropped to 20000, you would receive XP tics to the point you are back at 30000. Any XP earned from other sources only speed this recovery.

[SkillFocuspwn]

I strongly believe a lot of EfU's quality and style derives itself from the simple fact that loss is real and impactful in every aspect of the game.

While I have heard it feels crushing to lose your high level, the reason those high levels feel so important and legitimately impressive is because they aren't given to you easily, and because they can be taken away by poor choice or fate.

It is this chaos, this uncertainty, this very real risk of failure in everything you do, that makes you feel like a badass in EfU when you do succeed; and any attempt to flatten the 'imbalances' of the game world and bring everyone closer to an average will only diminish that.

[Legebril]

I would like to apologize for the sarcasm above related to suffering. It wasn't intended  to make feel  anyone off about it and I am sorry.

To keep it on the topic and address the issue discussed here in no abstract terms.
The author of the topic suggests 'Rebalance recovery XP to discourage' as a means to balance out  the following "The main effect of the death system seems to be to keep PCs on the quest treadmill.".
I want to add that  judging from my personal experience  of 15years  nwnRP, suggestions made here by 'Egon the Monkey' would make things even more fun that they are now and promote players to engage in fraction vs fraction conflicts and exploration without losing the challenging part of EFU.

Efu  has a special charm to it and I can feel a lot of Love put in the setting and PW, wish to make it more fun and enjoyable is only natural.
Thanks

[Egon the Monkey]

*waves at Paha*

My suggestion, as a more precise design spec.

• The Recovery XP system records the highest XP total your character has achieved. I know that's available in EFUSS as I can see the charts.
• When you  die, you lose 1/3 of your non-permanent XP, just like now.
• The recovery system gives you  back 150 XP a tick at <L8, and 100 XP a tick at L8+
• Recovery XP stops when you reach either 90% of your maximum XP or L9, whichever is lower.

Optional extras:

• Permanent DM XP raises the cap for recovery XP above 9. Then perma XP remains very valuable as it lets you recover to a higher XP total

Features:

• Failure is still just as impactful as before. If the rate of XP gain is comparable with quest spamming it will have no effect at all on the time taken to recover your XP.
• All this change would do is mean you recover that lost XP by "Doing any form of roleplay on EfU" as opposed to "quest grinding".
• Quests and DM XP remain important for increasing your maximum XP score, and thus the level you can recover to.
• That way you do a quest because you increase your maximum level or get some loot, not just to recover. An 'injured' PC has a reason to play that up and not just relentlessly fight.

[Jello!]

[hide]My suggestion, as a more precise design spec.
The Recovery XP system records the maximum amount of XP your character has achieved. I know that's available in EFUSS as I can see the charts.
When you  die, you lose 1/3 of your non-permanent XP, just like now.
The recovery system gives you  back 150 XP a tick at <L8, and 100 XP a tick at L8+
Recovery XP stops when you reach either 90% of your maximum XP or L9, whichever is lower.

Optional extras:
Permanent DM XP raises the cap for recovery XP above 9. Then perma XP remains very valuable as it lets you recover to a higher XP total

Features:
Failure is still just as impactful as before. If the rate of XP gain is comparable with quest spamming it will have no effect at all on the time taken to recover your XP.
All this change would do is mean you recover that lost XP by "Doing any form of roleplay on EfU" as opposed to "quest grinding".
Quests and DM XP remain important for increasing your maximum XP score, and thus the level you can recover to.
That way you do a quest because you increase your maximum level or get some loot, not just to recover. An 'injured' PC has a reason to play that up and not just relentlessly fight.[/hide]

Maybe I misunderstand, but wouldn't it be theoretically possible that if I was level 8 and died to 7 that I could powerfarm to increase my maximum xp, thus ensuring my tick gives me easier way to hit level 9?