PvP Ethics and EFU v5

[ARedRose]

Brief introduction that i never did.

I've played on EFU v4 for a few months before Enhanced Edition hit the shelves but i didn't like the UD setting so i didn't stick around. I was there for the glory days of NwN like i don't know 15 years ago? blah blah blah.

On to the point.
I made this thread to gauge other people's opinions on what is  the state of pvp in EFU v5.

My main gripe is that pvp is now feels much more stressful than i remember it on EFU.

I used to run with high risk characters all the time in EFU v4. I joined every necromancer cult there was , i joined the Ooze Cultists etc.
I also did a character of Ibrandul's cult

Shoutout to Kreshar for making all those necro cults for me to join because i love necromancy :P

Point is i did a lot of pvp and i don't remember any particular instance that made me stressed out or worried. I was havng /fun/.

Why you may ask?
Even when i was the victim of banditry people just took me some gold maybe a potion or two and in the rare case an item that i had in my inventory.
A lot of the time people would be content to just gloat and i would emote bring hurt properly and limp away. Things would usually resolve for the time being.
I had fun even when i was losing.

I remember two particular instances. I was a necro with undead out. I stumbled into a 4 man party and they chased me. Subdued me and they didn't even take a thing from me. But gave me a stern lecture.
Another one out of the top of my head. Came to a disagreement with a guy and we fought. Beat me and dragged me to the Spellguard to have a trial and i was exiled because i was a necro. They took an amount of gold as a fine but otherwise it was fun.

They didn't cripple my character and i had a meainngful IC consequence and i was also allowed to keep playing before i get FD'ed at some point.

Now i've seen quite some bad karma pvp going around and it just makes me concerned that if i initiate PvP for character reasons the opposing side will just dry loot me or get all my gold just to spite me OOCly to cripple my potential to play my character or just force me to sink meaningless time re-farming all my items / gold.

I've seen even people threaten out in Whispers to Dry Loot and FD people and it just makes me wonder.
I've also noticed a turn at people using optimal spell combos and invisible ganks to try and win no matter what.

I don't know. I don't remember being the victim of invisiblity ganks before. Maybe i didn't play much? Though to each their own. I suppose i don't have a right to complain about builds.

Generally, i want to engage in more pvp for storytelling purposes but the potential of dry looting and OOC spite targeting kind of dampens my mood for it.

These are my thoughts.

[Random_White_Guy]

At the end of the day it all depends on the characterization of the characters involved. Sometimes if you're playing a bastard of a PC a more heavy hand incurred. Other times things are more understanding.

One thing to consider and while it isn't the pinnacle of fun RP, is if you get PVP'd to do what I like to call the Hans Gruber Defense.

In the film Die Hard this terrorist mastermind was confronted by a rogue out of jurisdiction police officer on the roof and one of his first responses was to just start shouting "OH, OH GOD ITS YOU, YOURE ONE OF THEM, DONT KILL ME DONT KILL ME" and curling up on the ground fake sobbing. A large amount of more seasoned PvPers tend to take a heavier hand if you run your mouth after getting PvP'd swearing revenge or talking shit. However if you grovel, apologize, weep, debase yourself, feed their ego, etc they are quite content to go lighter.

Ultimately though EFU is about telling a story and everyone can benefit from taking a beat and separating themselves. The best advice I can give is everyone should try to play a Villain type PC at least once.

After experiencing the ups and downs be it necromancy, crime, demon work, a changeling, or what have you it helps broaden your horizon to how hard it can be for villains in the world at large when The Mob on their heels or just how isolating and miserable it can be or a litany of other problems the generic "Ha ha me and the BOYS are MERCENARY ADVENTURERS" type concepts just outright do not run into.

Conversely everyone should try a Paladin at least once as well so they know how hard it can be to push an agenda against the entire typically CN/NE server.

Shifting PCs, trying PvP and losing, trying PvP and winning, finding new and creative ways to get PvP victories beyond "GIMME ALL YOUR GOLD AND SOME OF DEM JUICY HASTE POTS" etc.

[ARedRose]

At the end of the day it all depends on the characterization of the characters involved. Sometimes if you're playing a bastard of a PC a more heavy hand incurred. Other times things are more understanding.

One thing to consider and while it isn't the pinnacle of fun RP, is if you get PVP'd to do what I like to call the Hans Gruber Defense.

In the film Die Hard this terrorist mastermind was confronted by a rogue out of jurisdiction police officer on the roof and one of his first responses was to just start shouting "OH, OH GOD ITS YOU, YOURE ONE OF THEM, DONT KILL ME DONT KILL ME" and curling up on the ground fake sobbing. A large amount of more seasoned PvPers tend to take a heavier hand if you run your mouth after getting PvP'd swearing revenge or talking shit. However if you grovel, apologize, weep, debase yourself, feed their ego, etc they are quite content to go lighter.

Ultimately though EFU is about telling a story and everyone can benefit from taking a beat and separating themselves. The best advice I can give is everyone should try to play a Villain type PC at least once.

After experiencing the ups and downs be it necromancy, crime, demon work, a changeling, or what have you it helps broaden your horizon to how hard it can be for villains in the world at large when The Mob on their heels or just how isolating and miserable it can be or a litany of other problems the generic "Ha ha me and the BOYS are MERCENARY ADVENTURERS" type concepts just outright do not run into.

Conversely everyone should try a Paladin at least once as well so they know how hard it can be to push an agenda against the entire typically CN/NE server.

Shifting PCs, trying PvP and losing, trying PvP and winning, finding new and creative ways to get PvP victories beyond "GIMME ALL YOUR GOLD AND SOME OF DEM JUICY HASTE POTS" etc.

I always give this advise to people to keep their cool and play it out IC. If someone beats the crap out of me i RP being beaten and miserable. People usually respect that and we have mutual PvP fun.

But thank you for this post. You worded my woes better than i ever could. Wish i could switch my OP post with yours :P

[Egon the Monkey]

I think some of this is down to the setting, which reminds me a bit of the early days of EFU:A. A meaningful victory is one that ends a conflict or gives you the advantage the next time the loser comes at you. That way the loser doesn't just come back buffed the next day and FD you.   So I expect people are harsher in looting as it's the most reliable deterrent you have access to. Especially when you can (for Ticker at least) buy your way out of NPC consequences for murder, "Not just murdering" feels like a step down. The duels in the peerage are good because they do let you agree loss consequences and have a reason to abide by them. But they're inaccessible to PCs outside the Houses, and to PCs with no chance of winning a head-on duel (Although I'd love to see 'professional dueling champion' as a side gig for gladiators).

Looting PCs  is one of the few non-lethal medium term consequences PCs can inflict, so I'm not surprised it's used more often. Cursing and level drain are trivial to remove as they don't (IIRC) persist past reset. Hacking people's hands off is a serious long term/permanent consequence and needs DM oversight. Exile and bans on doing stuff are great because they are backed up by NPCs (who are persistent) and there's fun game in flaunting them. E.g. Sneaking back into town in Child shape from Alter Self is a much cooler way to get around your consequences than "Well, guess I grind back some Hastes". Also because they mean your political plans got rather binned.

The general lack of authority means that "Taking a pumelling, losing some stuff, shutting up about it and not getting the authorities involved" isn't a means to de-escalate a conflict and "Getting the authorities involved" isn't a way to escalate a conflict.

The "Handed in to the Spellguard and exiled" example is a good one, because it's an example of legal/social harm inflicted as a result of PvP. That PC lost access to NPC traders, PC stalls, and a safe zone, and it meant that crossing a line PCs had reason to care about (Don't Do Necromancy) had consequences backed up by NPC action. Unlike losing loads of your stuff, exile doesn't take away your capacity to act, only to easily get more stuff or organise. NPC action against PCs who do IC antisocial things is good as it says "It's okay to persecute this PC". A "respectable" NPC bounty does a lot as it means the self-interested PCs now see you as a piñata and it's probably okay to kick off on you in public.

As it is, most PvP is conducted like a monster or outlaw.  You're not trying to keep the consequences of a fight to "socially acceptable retribution" rather than "grand theft and murder" levels. You're trying to make people scared of kicking off on you and your mates, personally, because extortion is cheaper than fighting.  E.g. someone pickpocketed my PC. My immediate reaction was to attack them with the intent of subduing them, taking my PC's money back with damages, and threatening serious harm if they did it again. Largely because he felt this was a more acceptable way of getting even than dobbing them in to the Arbiters.

[Paha]

A rather quick and dirty answer from observing, culminates to chain reaction of few things, but these are notable.

We have a lot, and truly, a lot of newer people around that are not either accustomed to what could be called pvp karma as it pops up in efu, and likewise to receive / handle / or be on the dealing end of pvp. Pvp is not so finite or serious in other places as it might be in efu.

So. As a result I've seen veterans be dealt a blunt hand, and then react bit poorly and deal it forward. I've seen newer people receive a tough situation bit poorly or by reacting hastily and putting the other side in spot where they felt they had no choice but act on an ultimatum.

In good and bad we have more diverse group of people again, people come and go. It really does boil down to one simple fact that it has always been, whether you remember it or not. There is always a choice, in the end no one can force anyone to do anything, you can only truly affect yourself. And so; whatever situation you face, you can't simply rely or excuse your own actions by those of others. There are variations of what people consider fair, where's the appropriate point to draw the line, how you feel things should be done. It will not ever match with every other individual. So, in the end of the day, if someone truly acts in poor manner, truly in poor manner, you can come approach them politely or come to us. First step though is always to consider what can you do, even when the situation is the worst possible and you possibly couldn't even really affect it yourself or prevent your demise. They will at times happen, so what's the best course for you to act and if you choose to mimic that behavior or keep your own standards and do better than what you believe the other party just did to you. Likewise if you have regrets for what you have done to someone later on, reflect. Do better. Take chances rather than try to take easiest way out.

Not sure there is much other to say, as these discussion will always come up. They have always come up 15 years ago at the very start, and the topic will come up here and there again in future, as well.

Aim for a story. Have fun. Try not to be mean or cruel for the sake of being one. If it feels justified, and truly think it is, alright. If you think it might bring you high risk to choose another path, consider at times if it might be more interesting for you yourself. Don't expect anything from others, or think you are entitled for something, but be proud that you might try different things and let people go on for the story even at your own risk, and then do your best to adapt to the new situation. Try to do things differently at times.

[XIV]

I just want to add a little food for thought, and I'll disclaimer with this comes from someone that doesn't like mechanical combat engine pvp and rarely participates in pvp outside of plot driven conflicts.

My only pvp on efu5 happened really suddenly : I walked by someone that was red as I had many times before, and suddenly they were attacking me! I kind of panicked, gulped an invis potion and ran away. It was me, the player running away as much as the character, I was really startled and didn't know what was going on! As it turns out the attack was completely appropriate, it was the ponds, at night, and I totally should have been ready to be bandited. I just had this idea in my head that roleplay would happen before someone attacked me: it didn't occur to me that the mechanical advantage of just attacking would be so important.

What I ended up thinking though was that, if the player had roleplayed with me, been threatening, and so forth, my character would have reacted somewhat the same way: not by drinking an invisibility potion, but, by trying to preserve her own life, which is important to her! Maybe she would have bargained, maybe she would have offered up an item. Maybe she would have tried to run away! To be honest she might have totally wanted to sign up for that gig! Point being there would have been an interaction and the bandit person might have gotten something out of it beyond just seeing me get away because i went 'oh shit what!' and slammed the invis potion button.

Sometimes I guess attacking via the combat engine seems the most efficient way to do pvp, but I think it's something to consider in some situations, sometimes roleplay can work! Of course, that depends on people responding in a likewise manner, and I can totally understand not wanting to put yourself in the situation of relying on that, since it's just as likely that if you roleplayed threatening someone that they'd just go 'lul bye' and run off, or even just attack you instead. So. Hmph.

Anyways, without any real feeling on which way is better since there's complications to both, that's my two cents for the day :)

[LiAlH4]

PVP is a delightful part of the server. The danger lurking around every corner, the reality that bandits will use unfair tactics to secure victory, and the literal presence of assassins whose goals may be to end your characer's life if they choose the wrong side or break an oath -- all of these are good things.

All I would say is that it's important, when engaging in PVP, to remember that there are human beings behind the characters, GSIDs, and discord names. Try to make the experience fun, exciting, and as meaningful as possible for all involved. Even when you have to put a sword through their heart. The golden rule, but with added daggers, essentially.

[Richørd]

I think PvP is in a good spot right now on EfU. I haven't heard of a single case of someone being super-crippled, dry looted or anything like that without real story reasons behind that in a long while. Current playerbase therefore seems like it has good PvP karma.

And I like that. I think PvP as a whole takes a big hit when there are active players around that dry loot people they haven't even subdued themselves, FD people straight after standing up from subdual or generally really push the punishment for losing a fight into the extremes and bend the rules in a way that suits them. That sucks and just takes the motivation to get involved due to the fear of 'lose once and you're fucked'.
There also seem to be nearly no players that make a PC with arbitrary backgrounds and motives just to build for PvP and FD as many PCs as they can 'for the lulz'.


On the point of extreme methods being threatened over the whispers (dry looting, FD and all that).
I like to use the tactic of making big threats but actually not following up on them. If I FDd every single PC that I threatened with it there'd be a lot more dead people or my own PC would be dead already.
I believe this creates more tension RP-wise and doesn't cut stories short just because someone got into a bad situation once and got to be subdued by me.
This is far more enjoyable. EfU can be rough enough as it is with it's difficulty. I think we players can give eachother some form of leniency and not be total dry-looting dickwads.

[Fuzz]

My only suggestion with regard to the topic is that EFUSL2 should use the same DM listing style and not show the actual names of the players online, just the total number.

I've seen with some reliability someone specifically login to try to initiate PvP with someone they saw online, and the main method of seeing the player list while offline is EFUSL2. Not much we can do about the ingame player list (and it's kind of a necessity), but if someone was interested in RPed PvP, they'd make contact OOCly and coordinate, not wait for the other PC to show up on the list and then hop on and beeline to the nearest chokepoint near where that PC spawns.

[Iconoclast]

I have a general laissez-faire  outlook when it comes to losing pvp. I dont win much, and when I do I don't take much. But also I don't care if I get dry looted or killed. If its bad enough I'll  just roll another character.

What really frustrates me is when there is no roleplay or reason for the pvp. Petty banditry a perfectly good reason, but there is a supreme difference between running into some dudes in the commons who say "We're the Dirty Shoes gang, give us your groats or we'll give you a beating!" and the last time I was attacked which went exactly like this. I (with see invis) see someone walking near me invisible. I say "Hello?", they say "Hello" and 2 people turn red and attack me. Thats it, and even though I drove them off the experience was simply unfun. Was it a legit pvp? Yes. Was it lame? Yes.

What is the solution? Be excellent to each other. A good story is better than good loot, and those stories are the reason I play.

[Bearic]

Guys, bandits aren't going to give you an OOC heads up that they are going to attack you. I mean, maybe they will, off chance, but generally, throughout EFU, PVP is not something you necessarily expect.


I understand your point of view, when I first started playing in 2009ish, I too misconstrued that people were supposed to send you a tell and let you know you're being attacked or something. So when I got attacked in an alleyway randomly I was rather confused. Then the next time I was moments away from entering a quest area and my pc got hit with a sound burst, stunned and subdued I was upset.  I thought these sort of attacks were against the rules or tactless too.


But then I realised, that these sort of attacks left open fantastic roleplaying opportunities:  Kidnappings, assassinations, unknowable turf attacks and so forth.  They add a finite reality to an otherwise insane and absurd world. How many people just rush a bandit in the commons because he is named bandit and red? It's not crazy for someone to try and kill your PC considering Adventurers just slaughter hundreds of people will minimal concern.


Trust me, it takes a bit of getting used to, and I still don't care much to initiate because of similar OOC possible scenarios with people upset with each other. However, the random and dangerous world that EFU creates means that you will never feel safe with some Level 10 juggernaut of destruction, because three level 4 pcs with some tanglefoot bags, flash powder, and a well placed dispell can change up the whole dynamic  - there's always a challenge and it keeps things fresh, even if in the short term it may seem crappy.

[Fuzz]

Guys, bandits aren't going to give you an OOC heads up that they are going to attack you. I mean, maybe they will, off chance, but generally, throughout EFU, PVP is not something you necessarily expect.


I understand your point of view, when I first started playing in 2009ish, I too misconstrued that people were supposed to send you a tell and let you know you're being attacked or something. So when I got attacked in an alleyway randomly I was rather confused. Then the next time I was moments away from entering a quest area and my pc got hit with a sound burst, stunned and subdued I was upset.  I thought these sort of attacks were against the rules or tactless too.


But then I realised, that these sort of attacks left open fantastic roleplaying opportunities:  Kidnappings, assassinations, unknowable turf attacks and so forth.  They add a finite reality to an otherwise insane and absurd world. How many people just rush a bandit in the commons because he is named bandit and red? It's not crazy for someone to try and kill your PC considering Adventurers just slaughter hundreds of people will minimal concern.


Trust me, it takes a bit of getting used to, and I still don't care much to initiate because of similar OOC possible scenarios with people upset with each other. However, the random and dangerous world that EFU creates means that you will never feel safe with some Level 10 juggernaut of destruction, because three level 4 pcs with some tanglefoot bags, flash powder, and a well placed dispell can change up the whole dynamic  - there's always a challenge and it keeps things fresh, even if in the short term it may seem crappy.

I don't think anyone is denying that, it's more that people are talking about that same bandit running out of nowhere while you're walking in the Commons, attacking and subduing you, then FDing you, all with minimal RP. Maybe they say "Die!" or use the V menu laugh from their voiceset or some canned line before they do in your character.

There is no RP, there is no story. In the example above with the PC that was killed tonight, he was walking and got murdered, and for what? A handful of PCs splitting up his stuff in the Open Door later, and everyone just moving on, when the PC in question was a mover and shaker and specific to the current Torc was a central figure on the Ticker side who was building up a cool revenge plot and narrative specifically because of it... but all that is in the dumpster now, with minimal context or explanation, so for those on the outside of whatever conflict there was, it just seems like random violence with no meaning or particularly interesting narrative.


PWs are about collaborative storytelling, ultimately. That should be a thought process everyone considers... "will this make for a cool story?" is a far more important question to ask than, "is this fair" or "will my character get something out of this."

[VanillaPudding]

Guys, bandits aren't going to give you an OOC heads up that they are going to attack you. I mean, maybe they will, off chance, but generally, throughout EFU, PVP is not something you necessarily expect.


I understand your point of view, when I first started playing in 2009ish, I too misconstrued that people were supposed to send you a tell and let you know you're being attacked or something. So when I got attacked in an alleyway randomly I was rather confused. Then the next time I was moments away from entering a quest area and my pc got hit with a sound burst, stunned and subdued I was upset.  I thought these sort of attacks were against the rules or tactless too.


But then I realised, that these sort of attacks left open fantastic roleplaying opportunities:  Kidnappings, assassinations, unknowable turf attacks and so forth.  They add a finite reality to an otherwise insane and absurd world. How many people just rush a bandit in the commons because he is named bandit and red? It's not crazy for someone to try and kill your PC considering Adventurers just slaughter hundreds of people will minimal concern.


Trust me, it takes a bit of getting used to, and I still don't care much to initiate because of similar OOC possible scenarios with people upset with each other. However, the random and dangerous world that EFU creates means that you will never feel safe with some Level 10 juggernaut of destruction, because three level 4 pcs with some tanglefoot bags, flash powder, and a well placed dispell can change up the whole dynamic  - there's always a challenge and it keeps things fresh, even if in the short term it may seem crappy.

I don't think anyone is denying that, it's more that people are talking about that same bandit running out of nowhere while you're walking in the Commons, attacking and subduing you, then FDing you, all with minimal RP. Maybe they say "Die!" or use the V menu laugh from their voiceset or some canned line before they do in your character.

There is no RP, there is no story. In the example above with the PC that was killed tonight, he was walking and got murdered, and for what? A handful of PCs splitting up his stuff in the Open Door later, and everyone just moving on....

Assuming any of this is true, it sounds like something you should bring up privately with DMs and not in a public forum. The biggest lesson you can learn on EFU is that it is a consequence heavy place, and people who don't expect the consequence of their actions often struggle. That can be from summoning the wrong stuff, constantly working against the wrong people, or whatever else in similar form.

[Bearic]

I don't think anyone is denying that, it's more that people are talking about that same bandit running out of nowhere while you're walking in the Commons, attacking and subduing you, then FDing you, all with minimal RP. Maybe they say "Die!" or use the V menu laugh from their voiceset or some canned line before they do in your character.

There is no RP, there is no story. In the example above with the PC that was killed tonight, he was walking and got murdered, and for what? A handful of PCs splitting up his stuff in the Open Door later, and everyone just moving on, when the PC in question was a mover and shaker and specific to the current Torc was a central figure on the Ticker side who was building up a cool revenge plot and narrative specifically because of it... but all that is in the dumpster now, with minimal context or explanation, so for those on the outside of whatever conflict there was, it just seems like random violence with no meaning or particularly interesting narrative.


PWs are about collaborative storytelling, ultimately. That should be a thought process everyone considers... "will this make for a cool story?" is a far more important question to ask than, "is this fair" or "will my character get something out of this."

Well, that's a bit vague, but if they're just killing people randomly it might be construed as griefing. Maybe check with a dm to see if it was legit?

[Fuzz]

Oh no, I'm sure it was legit a DM was overseeing it, seemed like. It's just from the outsiders' view there was little narrative to any of it so it just feels overall like a story that went untold and now will never be, which is unfulfilling and a bummer. Conversely look at the event over the weekend, which had multiple PCs die but it was high drama, pushed plot, and was just interesting. Even if you weren't involved and only heard about it IG, there was high drama and you could tell a lot was happening with it. Seems like all around the ideal kinda way you want a bunch of PCs to end up killing each other.

Sure there are cloak and dagger killings where people just get mulched and thrown in a ditch with little fanfare for very, very heavy plot reasons, and outsiders will just think it's a senseless death. Those are also fair game. Maybe this was one of those, in which case I am happy to be wrong, but it seemed to not be since there was totally the public "taking credit" side of it but without any actual explanation. Just feels a bit ignominious for a PC that clearly put in a lot of work, made a lot of stuff happen, and was a "mover and shaker" by all rights.