Sorcerers - Additional Spells / Level

[One_With_Nature]

I know this has probably been discussed a million times - but what if sorcerers got additional spells each level - but the additional spells they got over and above the default choices were from a pool of spells for balance? More like support spells / spells they are not the "go to" spells for PvP/PvE.

So known spells would be something like..

Level 1: 2 known spells (1st lvl)
Level 2: 2 known spells (1st lvl) / 1 secondary pool spells (1st lvl)
Level 3: 2 known spells (1st lvl) / 1 secondary pool spell (1st lvl)
Level 4: 3 known spells (1st lvl)  / 1 secondary pool spell (1st lvl) / 1 known spell (2nd lvl) / 1 secondary pool spell (2nd lvl)
Level 5: 3 known spells (1st lvl) / 2 seondary pool spells (1st lvl) / 2 known spells (2nd lvl) / 1 secondary pool spell (2nd lvl)
Level 6: 3 known spells (1st lvl) / 2 seondary pool spells (1st lvl) / 2 known spells (2nd lvl) / 1 secondary pool spell (2nd lvl) / 1 known spell (3rd lvl) / 1 Secondary pool spell
Etc etc..

[Stranger]

The cleanest and most elegant solution is to grant sorcerers +1 known spells across the board. Any spell. Each tier. No frills. This requires the least time investment for our developers. This grants significant creative freedom and improves the quality of life for all sorcerers. This makes the class better without increasing its raw power or scripting a complex system. This means that "something cool or something useful" no longer tortures sorcerers every day while they're still starting out and struggling to make it work; just two L3 spells at level 6, for example, means that a sorcerer would no longer have to hate themselves for not choosing Haste, or for skipping Improved Invisibility at 8. Sorcerers will be able to function without these huge, suffocating compromises, and even then, they will still be painfully limited compared to a wizard of the same level.

In fact, having accidentally discovered a simple, small, and easy edit on the Neverwinter Vault which could effect this change, I am confused as to why we haven't done it already. It seems like the perfect answer to sorcerer suffering.

[forwhat]

Going to second what Stranger said. Perks don't even come close to closing the gap between Wizard and Sorcerer. Wizard still gets spells a level earlier, the bonus feat, and (almost) full access to their spell list. Giving them an extra spell known per level would at least make them competitive with wizard.

[Anonymous Lemur]

Extra known spells would be great. Though it would absolutely represent a significant power spike in sorcerers.  I'm confident one extra known spell  would allow me to trounce any same-level wizard fairly effortlessly in a duel, but still wizards have plenty of nice things going for them such as skillpoints, spellcraft, earlier spells and two bonus feats. 

Though if you ever find yourself "agonizing" over choosing something "cool" over something "useful" maybe you should just pick what you enjoy rather than what causes you a great deal of discomfort. Nobody is going to judge you over your spell selection.  You are the arbiter of your own fun.

[Stranger]

Extra known spells would be great. Though it would absolutely represent a significant power spike in sorcerers.  I'm confident one extra known spell  would allow me to trounce any same-level wizard fairly effortlessly in a duel, but still wizards have plenty of nice things going for them such as skillpoints, spellcraft, earlier spells and two bonus feats. 

Though if you ever find yourself "agonizing" over choosing something "cool" over something "useful" maybe you should just pick what you enjoy rather than what causes you a great deal of discomfort. Nobody is going to judge you over your spell selection.  You are the arbiter of your own fun.

Being "the arbiters of [my] own fun" does not diminish that I'd like my sorcerer characters to be able to cast fun, interesting spells and still be able to function in this video game.

And do you actually believe that knowing additional spell options would allow a level 9 sorcerer to "effortlessly" beat a level 9 wizard? That's crazy talk. Any wizard who knows what he's doing is going to crush in a duel that they're able to prepare for. Even with comparable scrolls (which is an unlikely circumstance, unless the wizard being dueled mercifully decided to scribe at cost for his sorcerer rival), being able to cast 5th level spells poses an incredible advantage.

At level 7 and 11, the comparison is similar. The sorcerer stands to be blown out of the water.

Faster spell progression. Three bonus feats. The ability to change out the entire spell list on a whim. An entire Ring dedicated to supporting them, complete with the best stronghold in the game. An incredibly useful spellcasting ability score. Wizards have it all.

[Cat]

As a chronic sorc player, something like this would be most welcome. It would be a welcome balance to help make sorcs more in line with other classes and such.

[Torrance]

I do think that sorcerers could use one extra spell spell known at all levels just to give them extra flexibility without making them overpowered.

While I agree that we should select spells for roleplay first, it's not fun playing a gimped character because you wanted to spice up your spell selection with something that has more flavor than power.

[SN]

Yes, please! Always wanted this! I even logged in to post it!

[Richørd]

As always in such situations I'm on the side of advocating for nerfs instead of powercreeping.

Judging from the recent discussion that went down in the Discord it would seem that people want sorcerers buffed mainly because wizards are "too good". Well, if wizards are "too good" then why aren't they being adjusted instead or rising up the other mainstay arcane-casting base class that already gets a bunch of cool perks to boost it up PLUS some very neat class-specific items in the module?

[Dredi]

Sorcerors are in this very difficult position unfortunately, but I certainly agree with the argument against power creep and that this should be adressed.

First and foremost, if the arguement against power creep is against wizards, the question then becomes, are wizards overpowered?
Personal thoughts are that they are not, they can be incredibly strong at certain things, but  generally only for very limited durations while they retain fairly consistantly weak outside of those periods. A wizards strength generally comes from its potency to have a wide variety of spells and utility - and access to 5th level arcane spells before anyone else.

I feel that it would only be fair to argue that wizards should be nerfed if they were considered to be overpowered, but then I suspect we would be having a conversation about nerf wizard - which we arent. I dont think anyone would argue that a Wizards base state should be reduced further to meet the perceived levels of other classes.

Is a wizard better than a Cleric? I'd probably say not in most circumstances, Should we then nerf clerics? Again, probably not, clerics are strong - one of the most consistantly strong classes in DND and has been for many editions but I dont feel there is a need to reduce them further in their current state. An arguement could even be made that things such as wizard foci and planar sickness and the Relic Guardian system are methods of restraining these classes if only in some respects but thats another arguement.

So, what does increasing the number of spell slots for a sorceror do?

It would generally speaking increase their utility and most importantly survivability.
Certain spells, Sheild, Mage armor, Ghostly visage and the like are widely considered "core" spells, necessary to ones own survival at a very basic level. Low AC? You're going to get stunlocked or one shot in PVP (as has happened to me, as a sorceror who could not pick them up until level *9* many times)
At higher level, you gain new spell levels at a rate slower than any other pure spellcasting class and while you do get more spell slots, this is  far from balanced on a basis that it balances out poorly when attribute bonuses and additional spell levels come into play.

Lets take a level 9 Comparison.
Wizard gets:
4 Level 1 Spells +1 Specialist
4 Level 2 Spells +1 Specialist
3 Level 3 Spells +1 Specialist
2 Level 4 Spells +1 Specialist
1 Level 5 Spells +1 Specialist (potentially +1 from Intel Mod)

20 Spells per day before equipment and assuming enough intel to get a bonus 5th level spell slot.

Sorcerors get by comparison
6 Level 1 Spells
6 Level 2 Spells
5 level 3 Spells
3 level 4 spells

20 Spell slots per day before equipment, but no access to 5th level spells, No bonus feat, No Scribe Scroll - but they DO have access to perks.

Now, it is a given that sorceror equipment is more common - especially in giving spell slots - than wizards.

But if we accept that Wizards and Sorcerors should be roughly equal and that Wizard itself does not need a nerf, then we have to ask if, in the specific environment of EFU and the constructs of the leveling system, if adding a more utility and survivability to a sorceror is an unreasonable ask. It may not be suitable for all perk-types - and perks in general may require an overhaul if this were to go into play.

Pointedly, is the perk system in its current incarnation a suitable replacement for what is a significant gap in power between this class and a reasonable base line?

I've no idea, but I will say, purely from my opinion, bias though it may be that It would be nice to be able to cast a survival spell AND a character appropriate spell of any given level without needing to hit the level most other classes are getting their next level spells.

[MAGIC]

There is another option that may be worth considering.

Give Sorcerers +1 or +2 Caster Level.

So a lvl 8 sorcerer would cast spells as a lvl 10 when it comes to spell effects, damage, duration.

This would offset them not gaining access to the next tier of spells when wizards do. Slower progression than wizards/clerics/druids, but more potency for their level.

[Richørd]

But if we accept that Wizards and Sorcerors should be roughly equal and that Wizard itself does not need a nerf, then we have to ask if, in the specific environment of EFU and the constructs of the leveling system, if adding a more utility and survivability to a sorceror is an unreasonable ask. It may not be suitable for all perk-types - and perks in general may require an overhaul if this were to go into play.

Pointedly, is the perk system in its current incarnation a suitable replacement for what is a significant gap in power between this class and a reasonable base line?

I've no idea, but I will say, purely from my opinion, bias though it may be that It would be nice to be able to cast a survival spell AND a character appropriate spell of any given level without needing to hit the level most other classes are getting their next level spells.

Maybe give certain perks an improved hitdie? Or add a free toughness feat?

[Sem]

The idea of nerfing something before buffing something in this context is absolutely ludicrous. That being said sorcerers getting an extra known spell per spell level *is* a huge power increase. To at any point consider the idea of giving it to them simply to make sure someone can choose their 'flavor' spell without worrying about whether or not they're going to have fun or feel useful is entirely irrelevant to what makes something mechanically balanced.

I feel like perhaps it would be a better change to simply to do let them learn spells faster; without necessarily being able to cast them sooner.

For instance.

At 5th level, you can learn a 3rd level spell but your spell slots for 3rd are 0. (allowing bonus slots to be used)
At 6th level you still only know 1 3rd level spell, but have 3 3rd level slots
At 7th level you you know 2 3rd level spells, and can learn a 4th level spell with 0 4th level spell slots.
At 8th level you still only know one 4th level spell but have 3 spell slots.



I have created a chart to more functionally demonstrate my proposal
                        1st 2nd 3rd 4th ((Spell slots))                  1st 2nd 3rd 4th ((Spells Known))
5th    Level||   6    6    4    0    —    —    —    —    —    —    6    4    2    1   -    -    -    -    -    -
6th Level||      6    6    5    3    —    —    —    —    —    —    7    4    2    1    -    -    -    -    -    -
7th Level||      6    6    6    4    0    —    —    —    —    —    7    5    3    2    1    -    -    -    -    -
8th Level||      6    6    6    5    3    —    —    —    —    —    7    5    3    2    1    -    -    -    -    -

[Zambition]

I think sorcerers should also get 1d6 hit die as they do in other editions. Wizards do too, but that's beyond the point. More health would go in tow with the fact they can use more weapons than a wizard because of, for the most part, being more salt of the earth types that have probably had tougher lives than wizards who hug their books.

[Charnelist]

I've always been with Stranger on this.
Really, it might be time.