Associations and Ring Running

[Random_White_Guy]

The situation of Ring 99's Associations and Ring Running has hit a critical mass. It's to an extent I feel like a suggestion needs to be made because at the very core of an association is the idea that you're given a number of resources but also that it comes with expectations. You don't have to App but you're reliant upon NPC situations and standards, you're expected to wear uniforms, you're part of these larger factions, and etc. It's one thing if a PC Association has a very clear cut, DM or PC driven excuse to go Ring Running, but of late that feels very vacant from a lot of the situations that are witnessed.

I'd like to suggest two potential alternatives based on this quote Howland gave on a similar issue with DM factions.

[10:22 AM] Howlando: Regarding "Lamplighters," if one of those PCs who is not an Arbiter wishes to take on the mantle of ringrunning crew leadership feel free to PM me and I will make a channel.
Don't mind Arbiters ringrunning on the side, but I feel like the leader of a cool ringrunning group should not be an Arbiter.

I feel like this should be expanded to Associations as well, and make Ring Running a PC Faction game rather than "Association that Moonlights in the Rings" game.

My reasoning is as follows:

1)

PCs who embark deep into the rings on behalf of an Association should be written off as MIA/KIA/Fired. It's not oath-breaking to run the rings as there's still the appeal of the King's Favor and all the mythos involved in all that but there's so many PCs from the Peerage or Ticker involved in the Stonebuilders who are now either leading their own ring running crews or are heavily involved in other Deep-Ring activities which give this weird illusion that the Associations are both "Full" and Empty.

A Guildmember of Ticker Square wants to ring run I could see that being very cool for a story but you shouldn't be allowed to hold a Stronghold, etc. You keep Guild status but you're recognized as off on expedition or out of touch.

A Peerage Retainer can just as easily sponsor a PC crew through intrigue and resources and etc than leading it themselves while focusing on the intrigues of the Peerage.

Or a Peerage Retainer can just take the larger mission of going to a specific ring on behalf of their Lord, take a leave of absence and for a time they're written off presuming to fail or vanish as Moonspear did - if they come back with grand reward all the better and a chance to be returned to status.

As an association if there's a crisis ICly PCs aren't there to respond, if a DM or PC wants to or needs to do something association related or similar it's met with a "Ha ha sorry we're off in Ring 52". The point of an association is it is supposed to come with these costs at the expense of being given a lot of perks.

For suggestion 1 I think if you want to ring run I think it should be made pretty blanket you're unaffiliated.

A Noble House can "Sponsor" a ring crew like Privateers in the old pirate ages towards a target, or the Stonebuilders can sponsor expeditions towards some "Sacred Ring" like people always spoke of the great Amazon Rainforest Expeditions, or etc but I don't think it's appropriate or desirable for these PCs who are given so much power in the Hubs and involvement in affairs to just vacat for a time - Then come back and reap the same rewards of PCs who have grinded it out there or newer PCs just getting overshadowed.

2

Associations and Competition/Conflict in the Rings needs to be more heavily emphasized because at this point it's too convenient for rival associations.

"LOOK I HATE SOLOMON KROWN TOO BUT I NEED TO GET FROM RING 67 TO RING 66"
-Grigori Orza, Lord of House Orza, legendary hater of Solomon Krown until he went into the Rings.

If NPCs acted like PCs did towards Ring Running at the moment it would create such a weird fucking dichotomy and destroy any semblance of continuity in the server. Opportunism and PCS who are unaffiliated or in rival factions are helping one another through the rings and that is something that I feel like is seriously hindering the server.

PCs having to take some time to get their grounding or footing in a ring I feel is something that isn't a bad thing, nor if PCs in rival factions are actual friends or such that's one thing. What I do feel is bad is-

Notably race-hating PCs of the Peerage working for/with Non Humans because they want to get through one more ring

PCs of the Peerage and Ticker Square, independent of crews, teaming up in the Rings like 99 exists in a vacuum

PCs of rival Peerage Houses scratching each other's backs without some bigger tie to some grand formal agreement or some tether still to Peerage politics beyond "Hey you're around let's help X do Y'

PCs of varying crews meeting up to tackle X challenge

I get people wanting to Ring Run, I get people wanting new challenges and new content. But right now people are having their cake and eating it too, and something needs to be done about the fact that 90% of Associations right now feel like it's a feeder system for Ring Running. Because I think it's a straight line to draw of why 99 seems very sparse or dead.  Either Forcing PCs to pick a lane or putting more "Rules" in place about Ring Running and RP could help a lot in my opinion.

So again to emphasize I believe Ring Running should be solely PC Faction territory, not Formal Association Territory. Having Association PCs focused on 100-90 like the Inquisitor and Ring Runners focused on beyond would create a chance for small PC factions and Crews to get "Sponsored" by associations or DM factions. Thus leaving more active PCs in the hub focused on their IC Faction agenda, and all the perks and glory involved in being the Big Dick Swing of the Association

Rather than every second or third PC you encounter in a Faction wanting to Ring Run.

How we implement this I would leave to the crew but I think it'd be a net positive gain for the server at large to break down Association's ability to Ring Run so willy-nilly.

[Bio]

pretty much the exact thing i've been autistically screeching about the last few days put together pretty nicely


good shit

[SkillFocuspwn]

I will give my personal opinion here. I agree there are some issues around ties between 99 and Ringrunning and that rivalries and conflicts should not be ignored in favour of progression; but I think it's relevant that this phenomenon is a relatively new one. Ringrunning has had a bit of a boom, and this is all still fresh ground. It's positive these things are being brought up for the playerbase to be aware of and discuss, but I think as time passes and players settle into it more these things will reinforce themselves.

[Loops]

I think you need to be really careful about suggestions like this and their implementation. I've not been a part of the discord discussions, since I'm not in there at the moment, but I've been told a little about them. What would some of these suggestions achieve? Characters being removed from associations or losing status? Alright, following that through, all you'll have is empty associations. Players will make characters to do what they want to explore and what they find interesting to accomplish as players. Changes to a server should be more positively focused. Things should be building upon what's already there. If players aren't so interested in 99 right now, then 99 can probably be made more exciting without punishing players or characters.

I've swapped over from having 99 focused characters to having a ring running focused character. I've never seen the rings before, despite having (arguably) very, very influential characters.

Would my character come back if it suddenly became shameful to be a ring runner? No. Would making ring-running a denigrated act suddenly add stories and interactions to 99? I don't think so. Would giving characters who ring run less tools to drive events and stories on their return make 99 a more dynamic environment? No, I think it would make the situation worse.

My thoughts are that EFU COR is coming on a year old now. At this point, it's perfectly fine for large swaths of the player base to be exploring content that they don't normally experience. In many ways, it's a celebration of the design, that after all these months there is still the appeal there to commit to these challenges.

Now, is there a dichotomy between PCs in associations and the in game NPCs? I don't think so. Ever since COR has gone live, the big NPCs (who don't have a history of ring-running themselves) have been steadfast against ring-running PCs, in a way that has to me been a good case of 'show don't tell' world-building. The NPCs that have remained in 99 their whole lives and used all their energy to build their castles out of trash or try to keep peace in the otherwise lawless land of the rings do discourage people from wandering, becoming ring-runners and contributing to the slow decline of society. That's already there. Now, should that go so far as to exile ring-running PCs from associations? I don't think so - at least, no more than has happened in the past, with very specific and very extreme cases such as Velastra Quarterdragon's original exclusion from House Nephezar for taking on servants who were not loyal to House Nephezar. There needs to be a balance in this fantasy world we're creating - where you're not taking away from peoples' ability to make stories for each-other, but also offering the potential of failure. The current rings work well in that regard, I think.

I can only speak for myself, in suggesting why I'm not so inclined to make a ring 99 focused PC at the moment. It gets very difficult and intensive to build up a reputation, resources, standing and to push stories along as hard as you can. In comparison, the rings are very, very easy content when compared to the 'political' arcs. And you lose characters who you put a lot of work into very, very easily. Yes, that's a part of EFU, but speaking for myself I need time before I can trust that side of things again enough to put a thousand hours into another Eryeth or Morgan.

tl;dr, I'm sorry you're not having as much fun in 99 as you want atm. However, I think activity comes and goes, and if you help make 99 exciting you can draw players who want to play with you.

:)

[cmenden]

I feel like we need to pin down one really significant thing about EFUC that I feel like the chapter's of two minds on:
Are ringrunners expected to regularly come back to the hub?

If they are, some of these are non-issues, but then we'll want to see further improvements to make it easier to Return to 99 (shorter trips back through the rings/portals to 99 (one way?)/scrolls of TP (okay now I'm just being silly)

If they're not, then yes, I 100% agree with RwG about strongholds. I'm not sure what Association perks you'd expect to take away, though? Veteran status? Armor? The key? Prestige points?

To the second point,

I think some of the mechanics involved in ring running are encouraging the unrealistic-feeling cooperation behavior, probably unintentionally.

(sorry I really hope this isn't too spoilery)

A ring requiring gathering X items across multiple resets lends to a large mob getting together formed up of multiple groups that each had some of the items.
A ring requiring waiting through multiple resets for the right path forward to "open up" does much the same, but now it's like there was a queue line of people waiting for the right day, and it's finally here.
A ring requiring really specific really high DC skill checks to complete will naturally require a group to accept help from the one PC who happened to have the right skill

These three ideas are probably the three elements of ring running I'd like to see change over time, because I feel like the original "advertised" ring running was a replacement for classic EFU exploration that could be done with 1-3 people during times of low/no DM activity. A specific group of 3 mentioned in lore would be impossible in our current state, because I can't even imagine doing Ring Running with only 3 people unless those players had already done ring running on previous PCs and intentionally built their trio for maximum crush.

Also, even after writing all this, I think that neither of the suggested fixes are going to get people back to 99, which I assume is the point of the suggestion.

We had a ton of hub activity when DM activity was high and the hub was where all the action was. No one wants to be in the middle of nowhere if DMs are running all the coolest plots and events in Ring 99. As we slip into a point of the year where DM activity is always low, we see people doing the very thing that was designed to be fully automated, so this is probably just the way it's gonna be, and once DM activity picks back up after the new year, suddenly the Rings will become a ghost town again.

[Stranger]

I find it punishing to cause or sustain conflict in the Rings. It is just not feasible to have fluid alliances under the current design. You unavoidably need your group to progress. If you rock the boat, you're bound to fall out of it, and then what? Every new companion needs every key.

But what if they didn't? What if it became common practice for only the "captain" to hold all the keys necessary to progress, and for the rewards (such as they are) to be centered on this keyrich character? That would allow for more people to experience the content without desperate grinds to schedule effective raid groups for harrowing battles. It could encourage fighting over the reduced availability of keys.

At the very least, I suggest that the keystones of 95 and 92 to allow one to "cut to the chase," if you would. Have them directly initiate the challenge itself, with a reasonable expectation of the leading veteran showing off the lore of those Rings. That will greatly decrease the sense of desperation for bodies and encourage leaders to tailor groups to their ethos, rather than to convenience.

[Stranger]

Challenges which emphasize or test trust and mutual loyalty, instead of mechanical power, would also be an effective deterrent to dumb group composition. Particularly if there are rewards for betrayal.

[Random_White_Guy]

I think it's relevant that this phenomenon is a relatively new one. Ringrunning has had a bit of a boom, and this is all still fresh ground.

You're not wrong on that SFP, there's no denying it's a fresh boom of the last few months. But as of last weekend logging into the server with 30 PCs online at 9 PM on a friday US time, usually a prime EFU time if it's a slow night, was jarring. 90% of them were beyond the 92nd and so it was a handful of newer PCs and then other people sporadically coming and going for 15 minute intervals.

To your point Loops i'll try to break it down point by point:

Following that through, all you'll have is empty associations. Players will make characters to do what they want to explore and what they find interesting to accomplish as players.

Talking with people they aren't joining associations at the moment because they are perceived as "Full" of players or if they join one all the members are in the further rings and not involved with anyone to play with. it's not about disparaging anyone's playstyle but the fact is there's already limitations on PC Association affiliations, and the trade off is you get free rest and prominence in the Ward and free equipment and etc. Fullplate for 900 gold while most PCs have to pay 2k from a merchant or 3500 from the crafter, access to forums and PC support system, and etc.

Changes to a server should be more positively focused. Things should be building upon what's already there. If players aren't so interested in 99 right now, then 99 can probably be made more exciting without punishing players or characters.

I've swapped over from having 99 focused characters to having a ring running focused character. I've never seen the rings before, despite having (arguably) very, very influential characters.

Would my character come back if it suddenly became shameful to be a ring runner? No. Would making ring-running a denigrated act suddenly add stories and interactions to 99? I don't think so. Would giving characters who ring run less tools to drive events and stories on their return make 99 a more dynamic environment? No, I think it would make the situation worse.

Using your PC as an example though your PC is a ring running retainer of a Vassal, that's far different from a bonafied member of the Retainership of 99. What Quarterdragon has done with her crew, before they were brow-beat into joining Velstra, is what I feel should be the ideal pursuit of a Ring Running Crew in terms of a semi-independant pursuit with various sponsors and membership and etc.

My thoughts are that EFU COR is coming on a year old now. At this point, it's perfectly fine for large swaths of the player base to be exploring content that they don't normally experience. In many ways, it's a celebration of the design, that after all these months there is still the appeal there to commit to these challenges.

Absolutely. And the content should be explored to the fullest and a large swath pursuing them is entirely fine. But the point of Associations is they have a larger foothold than any PC could ever even dream of having on this server. Even the most organized PC faction will never have PCs as devoted to or ride or die as Association PCs. It just doesn't happen. So taking all the perks of Associations and then parlaying that into Ring Running is something I feel isn't beneficial because PCs can then dominate in the Rings and get acclaim, then also be big prominent figures in Ring 99. There's no risk, and infinite reward.

Now, is there a dichotomy between PCs in associations and the in game NPCs? I don't think so. Ever since COR has gone live, the big NPCs (who don't have a history of ring-running themselves) have been steadfast against ring-running PCs, in a way that has to me been a good case of 'show don't tell' world-building. The NPCs that have remained in 99 their whole lives and used all their energy to build their castles out of trash or try to keep peace in the otherwise lawless land of the rings do discourage people from wandering, becoming ring-runners and contributing to the slow decline of society. That's already there. Now, should that go so far as to exile ring-running PCs from associations? I don't think so - at least, no more than has happened in the past, with very specific and very extreme cases such as Velastra Quarterdragon's original exclusion from House Nephezar for taking on servants who were not loyal to House Nephezar. There needs to be a balance in this fantasy world we're creating - where you're not taking away from peoples' ability to make stories for each-other, but also offering the potential of failure. The current rings work well in that regard, I think.

Except they don't. When you have PCs of the Peerage calling for Ticker PCs  to help them in the rings, the same Ticker Square that protect and sponsor the Butchers that massacred the Agramast Nephezar and time and again have maligned one another and all these conflicts are just "Swept under the rug" for the sake of hitting the Rings.

I get not every PC is going to ride or die for their faction and is going to have friends in different places but at the end of the day we are in a living world and if PCs discount that for the fact of Ring Running it stops becoming about stories.

It just turns into WoW raids where we OOCly coordinate to meet up at X time of the week, Ignore the IC story to knock out one more ring, and the world feels a lot less fleshed out than it should be as people who want to Ring Run and gain all this prestige also want to be part of these big prestigious NPC affiliated associations with free supplies, free perks, NPC support, and etc.

And to me that creates a huge disparity between PC efforts and Association PCs.

I can only speak for myself, in suggesting why I'm not so inclined to make a ring 99 focused PC at the moment. It gets very difficult and intensive to build up a reputation, resources, standing and to push stories along as hard as you can. In comparison, the rings are very, very easy content when compared to the 'political' arcs. And you lose characters who you put a lot of work into very, very easily. Yes, that's a part of EFU, but speaking for myself I need time before I can trust that side of things again enough to put a thousand hours into another Eryeth or Morgan.

And that's fine. Not every PC has to be so 99 focused but the point i'm trying to make is it's not like you declared your own PC was a Butcher then avoided all of the IC obligations and expectations of Butchers to go run the rings with your crew of PCs who are focused on areas outside the Butcher's pursuits.

But you still have Butcher armor, and butcher perks, and are in the butcher channel, and butcher allies, and butcher reputation and PCs not wanting to conflict or pursue you because it would cause a problem with the Butchers and etc.

It's just bad optics.

tl;dr, I'm sorry you're not having as much fun in 99 as you want atm. However, I think activity comes and goes,

Absolutely, Activity absolutely comes and goes. But the problem is PCs are trying to keep a foot in both worlds.  People who want to be in 99 should have the boons and benefits of 99's Associations. Not PCs who want to come and go, and ring run, and tell these stories so far from the hub but then come back and have a great deal of say and sway. Compared to PCs who pursue matters other.

and if you help make 99 exciting you can draw players who want to play with you.
:)

It has nothing to do with me having "Fun" in 99 or not, nor drawing PCs in to play with me. I've always enjoyed telling my own stories so that's not an issue. The problem as it sits is there's entire times where the server says, falsely, what's IG to be played with. 30 PCS online and if 90% of them are in non-attached areas it  leads PCS to logging in, wandering and finding no one for 40 minutes, then logging off to enjoy RL.

Forcing PCs to pick a lane would mean there was always PCs who wanted to be association PCs within 99 and the prestige and glory that comes of serving the Houses or TIcker's associations and etc.

Versus those who want to run the rings, tell stories of exploration and travel and those personal stories of LOTR style bands overcoming adversity or etc.

Then somewhere in the middle those two groups can meet to push other stories.

"House Orza wishes to meet with these THree Ring Run Captains to discuss your crews serving Lord Orza for sizable boons"

"The Stonebuilders wish a Ring Running Crew to perform a service in the far reaches of the deepest rings and are offering a Bounty" and etc.

[Random_White_Guy]

I feel like we need to pin down one really significant thing about EFUC that I feel like the chapter's of two minds on:
Are ringrunners expected to regularly come back to the hub?

To me they are to resupply and etc but having Ring Runners as formal members of associations means people who are part of the association will vacate duties for the Rings, and undoubtedly still try to show up for big DM events and etc which is just weird to me. Compared to PCs who are there grinding it out every day repping the Faction.

If they are, some of these are non-issues, but then we'll want to see further improvements to make it easier to Return to 99 (shorter trips back through the rings/portals to 99 (one way?)/scrolls of TP (okay now I'm just being silly)

It's not a matter of coming back to the rings faster. This wouldn't be an issue at all if Ring Crews were PC factions instead of people with so many blatant entanglements.

Adding the extra spice of an Association to a ring running crew may be very fun from the IC perspective but OOCly I do not think it's a good thing for the server. Point blank.

There's nothing that says 3/4ths of the PCs who are currently ring running couldn't be doing the exact same things or pursuits as unaffiliated Ring Runners, or forming their own crews, or anything.

Having spent a great deal of time on my last PC in both TIcker and The Peerage before my own things blew up, The Peerage was a ghost town long before Ticker was because so many PCS were focusing on the Rings and external matters. Ticker at least had PCs doing the usual hub stuff or the seams or etc.

If they're not, then yes, I 100% agree with RwG about strongholds. I'm not sure what Association perks you'd expect to take away, though? Veteran status? Armor? The key? Prestige points?

Everything? Starting out in an association is leaps and bounds a -huge- boost over any unaffiliated PC. Fullplate for 900 gold vs 3500 means over 2k+ on potions a fighter type can spend. But then there's also the fact that factions tend to circle wagons. If you attack a PC of a noble house or association in the deep rings and word gets out PCs react, often poorly, and often to raise the stakes. This creates even less conflict in the rings since no one wants to get in trouble for pissing off a rival faction.

Also, even after writing all this, I think that neither of the suggested fixes are going to get people back to 99, which I assume is the point of the suggestion.

We had a ton of hub activity when DM activity was high and the hub was where all the action was. No one wants to be in the middle of nowhere if DMs are running all the coolest plots and events in Ring 99. As we slip into a point of the year where DM activity is always low, we see people doing the very thing that was designed to be fully automated, so this is probably just the way it's gonna be, and once DM activity picks back up after the new year, suddenly the Rings will become a ghost town again.

Sure, that may be, but just because "Plots are Slow" doesn't mean everything gets thrown out the window on a lark. If more PCs were focused on the intrigues and entangelents and advancing plots and stories in Ring 99 there would be more activity because PCs would have things to react to or be proactive towards without this looming "25 PCs are also online but they're out in the rings".

At the very least then it would be homogenized to the outer rings while Ring Runners and unaffiliated PCs went deeper.

[Pandip]

I feel like we need to pin down one really significant thing about EFUC that I feel like the chapter's of two minds on:
Are ringrunners expected to regularly come back to the hub?

I want to emphasize this quote because I think it is the primary tension right now with ringrunning and the biggest obstacle with how to "fix" it -- or, at the very least, make the experience more consistent across the board.

Is a ringrunning crew meant to be its own concept, completely separate from the politics of 99 and the stories being told there?
Is ringrunning meant to be something we do during downtime when DMs aren't around?
Is it something we are expected to do simultaneously with the roleplaying of 99?

There are a lot of problems with ringrunning right now, but I think having a better message or understanding about what the goal of the rings is from the DMs would be helpful in assessing those problems and finding a solution for them that is positive for all members of the playerbase.

As it stands, ringrunning is an incredibly time intensive, largely OOC aspect of the server that has a huge mechanical buy in that disincentivizes conflict driven roleplay (sometimes even roleplay in general), both in the rings and at "home" in 99. It also dissociates characters from the affairs of 99 and seems to have hurt player activity in the hub while creating several insulated groups. On the other hand, it's worth asking if the people who are currently engaging in ringrunning would be playing EFU if they were not ringrunning right now.

[Random_White_Guy]

To your points, Stranger-

I find it punishing to cause or sustain conflict in the Rings. It is just not feasible to have fluid alliances under the current design. You unavoidably need your group to progress. If you rock the boat, you're bound to fall out of it, and then what? Every new companion needs every key.

I think everyone should get a key every time, personally. A large reason people don't want to travel back and forth is they can't get back wtihout matching someone else's playtime which can be a nightmare.

Every challenge should give a ring for everyone for the group. Point blank. I'm not sure why it doesn't but I think that's a big dilemma also that needs solving.

People who do have keys trying to coordinate timezones becomes a nightmare, and it becomes this big "WE HAVE TO RUSH I ONLY HAVE 45 MINUTES"

Which takes a lot of the magic out of ring running.

But what if they didn't? What if it became common practice for only the "captain" to hold all the keys necessary to progress, and for the rewards (such as they are) to be centered on this keyrich character? That would allow for more people to experience the content without desperate grinds to schedule effective raid groups for harrowing battles. It could encourage fighting over the reduced availability of keys.

I don't think giving a few PCs hot potatoes would be any different than past plots where DMs marked 5 items plot relevant and it reduced to an absolute melee with tons of FD and stuff. I'm not hoping to inspire constant conflict or even force PvP in a ring.

It just drives me up the wall seeing the amount of, as you mention, mechanical or other limitations to causing conflict in the rings.

This creates an entire population of PCs who are part of an Association who are effectively "Untouchable". Or if you do take a pass at them you've got so much more danger, risk, backlash, etc because they're ALSO part of the "Association" in 99. Which is why I feel like it needs to be broken up.

To your point Fitz -

Is a ringrunning crew meant to be its own concept, completely separate from the politics of 99 and the stories being told there?
Is ringrunning meant to be something we do during downtime when DMs aren't around?
Is it something we are expected to do simultaneously with the roleplaying of 99?

There are a lot of problems with ringrunning right now, but I think having a better message or understanding about what the goal of the rings is from the DMs would be helpful in assessing those problems and finding a solution for them that is positive for all members of the playerbase.


As it stands, ringrunning is an incredibly time intensive, largely OOC aspect of the server that has a huge mechanical buy in that disincentivizes conflict driven roleplay (sometimes even roleplay in general), both in the rings and at "home" in 99, and dissociates characters from the affairs of 99.

I feel like that's the part of the issue of having Associations involved in Ring Running.

Ring Running should absolutely not be some "Get out of EFU Free" Card. and I don't think PC factions existing outside of Associations would mean they weren't entangled in the stories being told there.

PC factions have always existed on EFU in one form or another but Ring Runnying would give them more ample sway and influence, where as Associations are these big monolithic powers with clear cut goals and agendas and personalities. Ring Running crews would be supplemental and PCs could come and go and still be involved without being free of any entanglements. Add to that they get all these fringe perks and NPC affiliation and etc- It sets up a built in feeder system for new allies for Ring Running and etc.

Is that a bad thing?

I don't know, but I definitely feel it cheapens to have new PCS join up just to feel like they have to ring run or they're isolated from the rest of their Association or left to "Hold down the Fort" while these big prominent PCs come and go from the hub.

[Richørd]

Hey, so. Here's my piece about this.

I have one problem with Ringrunning.

It sorta kills off the population of Ring 99.
Feels bad man when you see over 20 people online on EfU and 3 out of 4 are somewhere past Ring 95. It almost feels like a mass-player-driven need to go and ringrun too just to stay connected.
Now you might ask : "Richørd, why are you such a selfish prick about this and why should everyone accomodate your need for people to game with in 99?"
The answer to that is : They shouldn't have to. But in the end Ring 99 still is the main hub. It has it's associations and factions. If I was a Lord of a House I would feel pretty icky about my Retainers using the armor I sponsored to run off and maybe die/get lost/betray my House somewhere in the deeper Rings while there are actual, serious issues happening here and now within Ring 99 to 95.

So, yeah. I would propose lifting the "one character only" rule and expand it to two active PCs per player so they can ringrun with one and then have their faction play with the other. Not both on one character. As RWG already said, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Dhund]

So, how many keys until a PC isn't allowed into factions? That seems to be what is being proposed. If you get a 95 keystone, is that then cause to have the PC stripped of 99 status? Where will those goalposts be planted?

Also, maybe I/my group is doing it wrong, since we only do Ring Running things one night a week (for things related to our factions, in Caston's case finding specific components/goods to sell, the stonebuilders looking for certain things about their faction, etc), and spend the 6 other days of the week in the 99 area, just as before. Ring Running itself doesn't imply the PC does nothing BUT spend time in the rings.

I suppose I'm not seeing this as as big an issue as its being portrayed here. People spend time outside the Hubs in quests/seams a lot as it is. A quicker return route, be it canal shortcuts, fey crossroads, portals, or whatever would be a bit more helpful to funnel things back, but its still only a 20ish minute run back.

[HeWhoSeeks]

So, how many keys until a PC isn't allowed into factions? That seems to be what is being proposed. If you get a 95 keystone, is that then cause to have the PC stripped of 99 status? Where will those goalposts be planted?

Also, maybe I/my group is doing it wrong, since we only do Ring Running things one night a week (for things related to our factions, in Caston's case finding specific components/goods to sell, the stonebuilders looking for certain things about their faction, etc), and spend the 6 other days of the week in the 99 area, just as before. Ring Running itself doesn't imply the PC does nothing BUT spend time in the rings.

I suppose I'm not seeing this as as big an issue as its being portrayed here. People spend time outside the Hubs in quests/seams a lot as it is. A quicker return route, be it canal shortcuts, fey crossroads, portals, or whatever would be a bit more helpful to funnel things back, but its still only a 20ish minute run back.

Bang on the money.

A lot of the Stonebuilders are using this as a chance to explore an arc/metaplot that's been abandoned - otherwise the mysticism that everyone has signed up for is effectively dead, which would result in a faction that the PCs legitimately aren't getting anything out of, at the moment.

I mean if push came to shove, I'd leave the Stonebuilders because apart from continued player efforts to involve our faction in lore hunting and ringrunning - there's nothing else left other than the traditional faction vs faction stuff.

For me, with all of the lore being gated behind ringrunning, or DM attention - it's a no-brainer what I need to do to progress. Also the groups staying together or splitting isn't even done OOCly either, the group I'm in nearly imploded, and ICly, we had viable  PCs that we had discussed showing interest in even as our original Ringrunning company, but excluded them to keep our group exclusive.

I agree with more PCs having a pair of balls and some convictions though when deeper in the rings.

[HeWhoSeeks]

"I don't know, but I definitely feel it cheapens to have new PCS join up just to feel like they have to ring run or they're isolated from the rest of their Association or left to "Hold down the Fort" while these big prominent PCs come and go from the hub."

I agree with you 100% RWG. Every PC should earn it, every, single, time. I've straight up abstained from ring challenges I've beaten before, while the rest of the group was completing them. It makes it so much better.