Please remove the RNG elements from ring running 92 and beyond

Started by Anonymous Lemur, November 16, 2019, 04:31:57 AM

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Anonymous Lemur

It sucks to be able to get a party together to undertake a challenge, only for the server to decide at random that the path to it is blocked this reset.  People should give up because it's too hard or dangerous to progress, not because they get super frustrated waiting for a reset where the path both spawns and everyone is around to pursue it.

Aethereal

8 months of pain and frustration was transmuted into pure joy and satisfaction because of this 'issue'. To change it would deny others the ability to feel such a potent thing...

The sense of accomplishment is only enhanced by the horrendous nature of the obstacle. It serves as a good test of dedication.

Ringrunning is after all optional but very rewarding content (not XP/loot but player experience & story).
---
'Even life eternal is not time enough to see, all the folly and despair of poor Humanity.' - [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJAoaCHdTJY]To Life - A Shoggoth on the Roof[/url]

It is through Art, and through Art only, that we can realise our perfection.

One_With_Nature

I was actually thinking about this and I am in two minds about the random element of passing some rings, if this was something to be considered I think it would be more interesting if there were different levels of difficulty that are randomized rather then this didn't spawn this reset, tough luck. Without spoiling anything in Ring 92 - you could have many routes to a certain place, but just make some of them require solving a puzzle, extreme difficulty or a secret door etc.. I remember early days of COR and i spent ages looking around a ring when what I was looking for didn't exist because it hadn't spawned and ended up giving up and I could imagine how this could be frustrating particularly for newer players. At the same time I do like that people can't blast through the rings quickly and the randomness does actually like Aethereal said give you a greater sense of achievement..

Anonymous Lemur

Quote from: Aethereal on November 16, 2019, 11:10:23 AM
8 months of pain and frustration was transmuted into pure joy and satisfaction because of this 'issue'. To change it would deny others the ability to feel such a potent thing...

The sense of accomplishment is only enhanced by the horrendous nature of the obstacle. It serves as a good test of dedication.

Ringrunning is after all optional but very rewarding content (not XP/loot but player experience & story).

I'd have probably played 3-8 characters in that time as I find the only way to survive that long is to shirk any possibility of permanent death for my character and play either extremely sporadically or timidly. That is something I would find exceptionally boring.

I feel your experience speaks more to your own play style than that of the general player base who are more prone to being adventurous and take risks.


Random_White_Guy

Quote from: Anonymous Lemur on November 16, 2019, 04:37:01 PM
Quote from: Aethereal on November 16, 2019, 11:10:23 AM
8 months of pain and frustration was transmuted into pure joy and satisfaction because of this 'issue'. To change it would deny others the ability to feel such a potent thing...

The sense of accomplishment is only enhanced by the horrendous nature of the obstacle. It serves as a good test of dedication.

Ringrunning is after all optional but very rewarding content (not XP/loot but player experience & story).

I'd have probably played 3-8 characters in that time as I find the only way to survive that long is to shirk any possibility of permanent death for my character and play either extremely sporadically or timidly. That is something I would find exceptionally boring.

I feel your experience speaks more to your own play style than that of the general player base who are more prone to being adventurous and take risks.

Ring running by nature removes one, for better or worse, from antics and risks in 99 until one needs to resupply, re-level, and etc.

I can say first hand that majority of my first ring running crew was demolished by people going back to 99 for DM events, PvP conflict murders, and otherwise that lead to our group being crippled and disbanding.

Ring Running does produce a bit of timidity but it's the nature of things an doesn't discredit the pursuit. It's just a different way to approach the game and looking at the server on a wider scale than just "Peerage v Ticker v Ponds".

To me Ring 92 is the Widowmaker. Typically people can do 95 without any organized effort, without a ring company, without much planning ahead.  92 gives a chance for PCs to explore the area, even the "RNG" elements still give an explorable to investigate, and similar. And if you do crack 92 it gives a degree of veterancy RP in Ring Running.

To my knowledge DMs have reduced how much RNG is involved from previous feedback but I don't think removing it all together is a good idea.

Compared to the start of the chapter it's in a good place I think and we've got more crews to my knowledge than ever active past 95.

Plus 95 has a degree of Randomness likewise. It's just a different form, different challenge, and different undertaking.
[11:23 PM] Howlando: Feel free LealWG
[11:23 PM] Howlando: I'll give you a high five + fist bump tip

[1:34 AM] BigOrcMan: RwG, a moment on the lips, forever on the hips

Anonymous Lemur

I think a lot of people are confusing challenge for tedium. I've explored those areas and passed the ring before. I speak from experience when I say it's not this magical and rewarding experience just because it took a few resets to get the thing to spawn.

It's more an ooc test of patience than an ic one, because unlike the ic perspective, ooc you know that no matter how hard you look this reset, you will never find the path and there are only so many times you can roleplay "where could the way be???"

MAGIC

The RNG gate can be rough.

My first character struggled at Ring 92 for over a month due to coordination efforts and bad luck.

I think having a few more valid paths might alleviate the frustration / bad luck a bit. These other paths could have specific requirements, like turning undead, or searching/open lock, or magic, to get through.

Random_White_Guy

I don't see how that's any different than having to wait for the proper quests to spawn in Ring 95? Or 93? Both also have RNG reset based elements and the exact same dilemma.

The idea of turning it into "Something too difficult or too dangerous" though I don't think is agreeable. There's so much content on EFU that is accessible by virtue of just having competent people or a big smash crew.

85% of all EFU content is obscenely dominated by a well oiled crew.

Turning 92 into one of those would just cheapen it in my opinion. 92 presents the time when PCs who may have joined a random crew to get through 95 now have to organize and yes, a little bit OOC cordinate, but as you get into the rings that becomes more of a PC Faction/Company pursuit.

I don't think it's bad that it requires both luck and coordination efforts.

My first run of 92 was vastly easier and quicker than my second but neither I felt were some obscene or unfair undertaking.

Even if it takes a month, (Or regrettably longer as Aetheral mentioned), there's a sense of accomplishment that comes with it.

Having to pump your breaks and pursue many avenues or other things while trying to Ring Run isn't a bad thing in my eyes.
[11:23 PM] Howlando: Feel free LealWG
[11:23 PM] Howlando: I'll give you a high five + fist bump tip

[1:34 AM] BigOrcMan: RwG, a moment on the lips, forever on the hips

Stranger

Ring 92 is a test of will.

We are welcome to return to Ring 99 and enjoy other wonders of the server if we don't want to camp there for a few days.

grapeshot

lol at treating something in a game as a spiritual test of will

in the end it's a matter of difficulty and reward, if the investment makes people not want to put in the time to see the content of the server, it's worth looking at, in my opinion

Richørd

So, as a total newcomer to the server I shall now make a penultimate statement about Ring 92 :

It's fine as it is.
It is as other people already said. Most likely the point where you have to stop treating Ringrunning as a fun side-activity and more of a thing where you either find people your character can get along with or you don't do it at all, that simple.
I personally had immense luck of not only finding a perfect group for my character but we also went and did it. Just like that. An investment of a few hours of dedicated (almost) non-stop dungeondelving with a big finale none of us expected and that was it. Ring 92 done, all in one go. And we went even down to 90 right after it.

TL;DR :
- find people
-get in OOC contact with them
-set up a good time for Ringrunning
-don't overexhaust yourself OOCly, you and your group should have a breather between each session


EDIT : to grapeshot's post. Why not? Games can definitely test your will. Dark Souls is notoriously well known for being a game series that is all about crushing your will if you're new to it but then becomes ridiculously easy once you know it all.
Why should Ringrunning be any different? I feel like if you want to achieve something abso-fucking-majorly awesome powsum as reaching Ring 1 and potentially ending the chapter by doing so? Then you should damn well be asked to invest some time, sweat and nerve into it.
It's like holding a world record in speed running. A challenge to yourself, something you may boast with to other nerds but ultimate worth nothing in the real world. It's all just fun and games, literally.

putrid_plum

I just find a lot of stuff about ring running very odd.  You don't want OOC cliques and OOC influencing IG but that's pretty much what ring running turns into.  I find that aspect troubling and frustrating the most.  Sadly if you don't have 6 hours a day every day to pump into EFU you're SOL about seeing any of this content.

grapeshot

re: richord

because ringrunning was meant to be an activity for players to pursue during dm downtime, and efu isn't a module that is meant to be enjoyed in any singular way by its playerbase

just like how you were frustrated with some of the recent pvp conflict in the game of late or the state of the trolls quest, it's alright to be frustrated about certain aspects of this game, it's what this forum is for afterall

some players might not have the play style or willingness to divulge the amount of time to the game that might be what ringrunning currently requires to succeed, not everyone wants to grind out an in game challenge over multiple sessions and coddle their character to not die solely to beat the first 7 rings when they could die weeks in like one of the players complaining about the state of the challenge has commented

all stagnation really does in this matter is lock more people out of bothering to pursue with the server content, it makes the content that is to be developed obsolete and makes the further ringrunning content that will be developed for those specific players willing to weather the challenge as it stands lesser because it will cater to less players, it's an overall loss for everyone

i feel as if a lot of people here are making a stand merely to stroke their own egos and congratulate themselves on their own accomplishments now while trying to play dm, all this never change mentality has ever done was cause more players to be jaded with efu



SkillFocuspwn

The discussion here shows that it is not considered tedious by all; certainly there are different aspects of the game that will be valued by different players and we strive to try and accommodate for as many as possible, which does mean including things that are not strictly a mechanical challenge which for example build atmosphere or a sense of character achievement.

That being said, there is for sure the possibility of random content being tedious; we have been tweaking and adjusting these things since chapter start, and will continue to do so, as well as adding new things to do when the dice don't fall in your favour, though this isn't something we can rush.

Ultimately however, we have no intentions of removing the luck-based elements entirely at this time. This is both for the reasons our players have stated already, and to ensure a natural progression; Ringrunning should not be a straight path to the prize no matter how strong or clever your group is and (as long as it is done well) forcing natural pauses and barriers that can only be overcome by time and luck encourages RP, develops characters and stories and makes it rewarding in senses other than strictly mechanical. This may not appeal to every player, but there are plenty of options already if pure combat challenge is what interests you.

SkillFocuspwn

Also, grapeshot, please consider your tone. Nobody else is coming at this confrontationally and while I understand it may be something you feel passionate about, there is no reason to be unpleasant about it. You can complain about something without sniping at people (as anonymous lemur and everyone else in this thread has done).