The MMOization of EFU

[Random_White_Guy]

I'm gonna take a moment and join the Worshipful Guild of Complainers.

I understand that there has been an attempt to try some new things with the new chapter and while some things have been wildly successful I wanted to raise a post about something that has been grating for quite a while. This over-reliance of "Random Generated Content" is not enjoyable. As someone with horribly sporadic play times across numerous timezone there is nothing as unpleasant as logging into EFU and wandering around trying to find a group to accomplish something only to have a laundry list of people say "No I've already done that".

Logging into EFU for me on a new character is the following experience:

- Wandering around puttering for the lowbie grinds, fine, EFU's always had that
- RP with a few folks but if things are slow or you're starting a new PC the interest is in doing some questing.
- Wandering around looking for Drips spawn quests.
- Wandering around looking for Seams.
- Returning to ask people if they wish to look into the seams
- Returning to ask people if they want to look into the Drips.
- "No, i've already done that"
- "I've been there already"
- "Try the Open Door"
- "You've done that seam? Very well, what of the oddities that are said to be occuring at the mansion?"
- "Nah done those"
- "Try a Whisper"

- By now it's been almost two hours of my time free to play EFU, the rare times people do show up to a whisper your options are limited trying to find something that people haven't done yet. And if you EE, Die, or otherwise you're just thrown into the meat grinder all over again.

I've had PCs tell me that if I find a Spawn or a Quest I should just send tells to some friends on Discord and we go hit it but that just makes the feeling worse and creates such a cliquish feeling. And I just don't think any of that is productive for EFU.

I had a player tell me just today "I've been level 5 for a week now and I don't want to flake on this really great concept but FUCK I am tired of this low level grind"

EFU is at it's most fun when you are level 6-8 in the thick of RP and having foes to work against or allies to do stuff with and involvement in the server productively.

I know that there has always been this romanticization among the DMs of telling the story from level 2 to prominence. But having suffered 9 deaths across 3 PCs in two of my days free to play EFU And the 24 Hour uptimes limiting chance to recover from death since you can't even take the quests you just took 8 hours ago to recover from your last death. And the difficulty finding anyone to do anything.

It's seriously creating a black hole.

[Grouch]

I agree with you strongly Random_White_Guy - EFU currently struggles with a disease I like to call 'Reset Rush' where the juiciest meat always falls from the sky right when the server resets. If you aren't there you aren't getting anywhere soon; factions tend to be a must to be successful, as the City of Rings I feel was very much designed for everyone to pick a side, then pick up a shiv and murder each other in a mad rat race to ring 1 which I am fine with as its a good game concept.

But indeed more than Mistlocke and Revelations the current setting relies more on luck, timing and reliable friends.

The short of it is, NWN was really designed like a small scale MMORPG as I feel it borrowed a lot of inspiration from titles like Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot (And of course PNP) to give us game mechanics that provide turn based real time combat and that is something we will have to live with; and like an MMORPG people will always gravitate towards what works best for them and is the the most efficient way of doing it.

[Necro]

I love EFU, I really do, and I adore this chapter, but RWG raises good points. Given it was decided that EE deaths are not refundable (I've had it helped once or twice, and thank you bunches to those <3) to my knowledge at least commonly, and how much progress at a certain point becomes a matter of luck and difficult at times organization, deaths cause more stress than any previous chapter to me I can say.
Chapters 2-4 if you died and got dropped to 5-6 and below, it was far more recoverable than presently

Previous chapters also didnt have the many issues that have come with EE, so deaths happened a lot more often naturally, and properly. I've not had a single PC yet this chapter that hasn't died 2+ times to EE crashes, and it is admittedly a big part of why I've been struggling to stick to a concept myself, because many quests have their take limits, and many of the casual xp grinds to 6, also have their limit not based on level. Eventually you reach a point where recovery from deaths is well, a lot more stress to play than just not to play. Ultimately it is said many times, we play this game to have fun. And while I have always supported EFU's death system, minus a few rants here or there when i was expectedly upset from deaths, but lately with the EE issues, not poor decision, or unpreparedness, I struggle to even hit 6, let alone maintain or advance beyond that point. Many may not be suffering these issues, but does that mean those who do just have to play with a massive disadvantage and deal with it because it isnt everyone's problem?

That I have to prepare excessively constantly when leaving any safe settlement zone, for the sole reason I have to plan on the likelihood of crashing just feels, off. Because this graphic insta EE crashes, or the area loading EE'd, while at minimum graphics possible, And even then, still die frequently, lose all my item buffs, cutting duration of others, losing all summons, losing all undead in crucial moments. Not gonna lie, there have been many multiple crash occasions where I saw my characters hp was at like, 3, or full, but i know i crashed at a battle point and i was reliant upon many factors beyond my control that are now gone, or unable to defend me, that I didn't wanna log back in, and considered just waiting for a reset because to log in is to basically die, knowing that the likelihood of getting a fair return or anything equivalent to what was lost, isn't going to happen. And that feels so OOC it hurts, which is why I haven't, but its  getting to the point where while I adore and appreciate the setting, playing in it has been more stress than anything else, for things that aren't my fault, but I have to deal with anyways while having to compare and stand up to those without these issues.

[Deadlykate]

I also agree with RwG's point. Not everyone wants to spend the time and effort with puzzles, while they might offer good RP with a group of venturing friends. I feel more limited in areas then I did in previous EFU chapters. Where many areas weren't locked behind puzzles or exploreables, however I am aware it is still a work in progress. But it certainly feels like if you want to get anywhere in this chapter you need to grind or be a merchant, also it's a lot of harder for outcast pcs such as bandits and necromancers. Being stuck in a limited area where most pcs will come across them and if they have skeletons they just get jumped on and killed.  Level 8 was a good stable point as well, I think it gave confidence for people to be more bold and take more risks. It's been a struggle trying to find things to do and relying on seams and exploreables to quest with others especially with different timezones. The chapter has a MMO feeling especially when you have EE deaths and crashes, it feels so punishing to do the same grind every day to get back to level 6.

While some people did argue that EFU:R you could level up to 7 or 8 in two days, I think it was fine where it was at. With EE issues and stuff, it wouldn't be as painful if we could rely on leveling that fast and we wouldn't be so discouraged to take steps that might cause conflict. It sucks when you are stuck at level 5 to a series of bad luck and plan on something that might involve lot of attention and conflict. Especially with said necromancers and bandits, you'll likely be jumped on by a lot of different people and won't be able to stand a chance.

[Scrappa-yeti]

I resepect RWGs opinions, but in this case I do have to disagree.

I think the random element makes the game -less- MMO like. Instead of groups running from QA to QA, it actually requires scouting, and communication to find stuff out and to organise groups. Gone are the trains where people grit their teeth and back-to-back all the mid level stuff as a swarm. Now if you want to do stuff, you have to interact with each other and the world.

When it fails, I acknowledge it is a little frustrating, but when it works, it makes everything feel that much more immersive and interactive. I have, for a while now, been mentally preparing a post commending the new system, which I think is nothing short of pure genius.

I do think there is room for some tinkering on the spawn rates, but the new model has only been open a while, there is plenty of time for the DMs to work on that. I personally think if there were less spawns at the start, so the gold-rush spirit was less profitable, that would be good. I also think the bottom number of QAs that are readily available could be increased (sometimes no one can find any readily accessible, random QAs, and the server tends to shudder to a halt).

But, all in all, I have been amazed at how well it has all worked, given the process is new.

Yes, there is more death than before. The EE's don't help, certainly, I am well aware of that pain. But I also think people are not really adjusted to the new meta. I see a lot of really poorly constructed quest teams, filled with sorcerers and rogues. I am lucky that both the characters I have played so far have been tanky, because frontliners seem to be thin on the ground for some reason atm.

But I also think people's expectations have not yet adjusted. We are at least one, maybe two levels behind for levelling, so everything feels harder and weaker, because you are doing things at a level or two behind where you used to be. I think in time people will get used to starting to do things at level five or six, and getting ganked by level eights for doing so; rather than as previous doing things at seven or eight and getting ganked by level tens for doing so...

I think the layout makes it easier to find randoms for a thrown together quest or two. In previous versions, I would frequently log on to 20+ people on, and not one to be found walking through the public areas, because they were all spread all over. Now I can usually find people, because we are mostly all squeezed into the tight 99 tube.

All in all, I think the v5 randomisation has been amazing. And I want to stress this is the worst version of it we will see. There is plenty of tuning to be done to be done to keep stuff fresh and dangerous, while still giving people something to do during the RP-downtime.

[Random_White_Guy]

Heya Scrap!

Fair points and just to clarify it wasn't meant to be some blanket pass of dismissing what has been done. There's some seriously cool new systems and as an entirely new setting is being fleshed out and etc. I know not everything can work for everybody. And you do raise a fair point about when it works it works. I agree fully, and I do love how much there's been a drive to strike out.

My issue is particularly in the 1-5 level range. It's a complete crap shoot on getting out alive for some people and it only takes one ill timed event to send you careening off a cliff.

However the one thing I have issue with-

But I also think people are not really adjusted to the new meta. I see a lot of really poorly constructed quest teams, filled with sorcerers and rogues. I am lucky that both the characters I have played so far have been tanky, because frontliners seem to be thin on the ground for some reason atm.

I don't see this as a bad thing. I have enough trouble sometimes finding 3 people who haven't done some random explorable yet with me, let alone finding THE RIGHT three people. At the higher level ranges these things don't much matter as you've got even wizards and rogues with some beefier HP.

[Knight Of Pentacles]

The single largest barrier to my personal enjoyment when it comes to playing EFU is the time it takes for a character to "get up and running".  What that means is incredibly subjective to each person, but to me it means having enough mechanical potential to reasonably participate in high risk, high intrigue activity.    I can say that players like myself  are feeling the burn of the new setting's design and are becoming less and less active because of the dramatically increased time and motivation  investment necessary.   This may change as things are finely tuned, but I find this new design choice just encourages all the behaviors that EFU has been trying to remedy:  Grinding, OOC coordination, cliquism, gamism, etc. 

[Mort]

As in every new version - There is always a run-in period where we fix world issues that are not apparent from the beta testing / building phase.

The randomized part of the content is very very vast and a lot of work has been sinked in - I think it's a very attractive part of the server.

I do agree that stable core QA or means to progression are needed either to hook players in for travel - However, this has been a problem with EVERY new chapter. EVERY new chapter, you have to grind to find out the "HOW TO" of levelling/loot/getting other people attention. Perhaps randomization makes it more tedious but the goal was for the experience to never get stale and a new each time you logged in - Again, I do agree that the biggest goal on EFU is to do the content with OTHER CHARACTERS / PLAYERS as they are the real interest of the server.

I do think you need options to hook in players on an adventure - and QAs provided you with these options - it might be a harder to be creative to hook in others on an adventure as a player with only randomized content - but it's always harder to hook in players on an adventurer when you are new to a setting - so its both something we want to address and something that will go away as you learn the content of the server.


That being said - the sensationalism journalism headline posts "CRISIS ON EFU", "IS EFU DYING?", "THE SHIT-ITIZATION of EFU?" - I get a bit tired of.

[Arslefjun]

I think the main issue with most explorables is similar to previous settings.
That is if you don't go with a strong and minimal party 2 or 3man you tend to not even break even.
I feel that this in many cases encourages exclusion rather than inclusion since a lot of people claim to have a hard time "getting their characters set" as it is.

[Random_White_Guy]

To your point Mort:

Perhaps randomization makes it more tedious but the goal was for the experience to never get stale and a new each time you logged in

And I fully agree that is a possibility. I know the introduction to explorable content in the first place last chapter was a huge deal to get more people into the wilds away from the hubs. And I know that things are underway on a lot of levels as DMs keep working.

The point I was trying to make was if you're established then it's a bountiful and beautiful undertaking, but if you're in a tailspin on the lower end of things as players have been encountering it's downright abysmal.

That being said - the sensationalism journalism headline posts "CRISIS ON EFU", "IS EFU DYING?", "THE SHIT-ITIZATION of EFU?" - I get a bit tired of.

I'm sorry if it came off as sensationalism but that wasn't my intent. I honestly didn't know what to label it as but when I was trying to think why things felt so "Off". The mixture of random generated content coupled with having to FIND that content and then FIND a group creates a pretty sizable time sink and when I think time sink, MMO came to mind. 

If anything the shift to a new chapter I think has brought a fresh new spin on both concepts and potential with far more classical fantasy elements than the old EFUM/EFUR Apocalyptico Grimdark. Less doom of the world or horrible monstrosities more whimsy, magical mysteries, and deviation from the terrible FR stuff. It's a great change of pace and has been fun to see people flex their creative muscles conceptually.

As KOP and Akke alluded to though unless things work out perfectly there's just this...

I don't know what to call it. Limbo? Extended new guy period where if luck doesn't fix you're just kind of SOL stuck in the Lowbie Zone until you can crack the nut which can take anywhere from a few days to way too many for some concepts leading to bailing.

And you're left more spectating EFU rather than partaking of it.

[SovietGrowlithe]

I'll throw my bone into the conversation and say I agree with a lot of what's been said.

I've not had the pleasure of playing the other chapters and this is really my first experience with EFU and WITH NWN OVERALL.  So I've no clue how to 'build' the best. What mechanical stuff I should know. What spells were good to have and things like this. I've for all intents and purposes been all over the spectrum my first month here until settling on playing a character, that met their end at my own choice. When my level 8 character was killed I knew I'd have to go through the leveling process once more and unfortunately on my newest character I've died repeatedly and had to climb through the levels multiple times. Making it nearly impossible 'mechanically  to get deep into a lot of story-lines or make my character feel impactful. (Outside the group of companions he's made.) Which I will say is much like what Knight Of Pentalces says here.

The single largest barrier to my personal enjoyment when it comes to playing EFU is the time it takes for a character to "get up and running".  What that means is incredibly subjective to each person, but to me it means having enough mechanical potential to reasonably participate in high risk, high intrigue activity.

[Side note but equally important.] Because of all the deaths I did get a ridiculous amount of gold and I've been asking people what's best to buy for pvp. Cause most conflicts boil down to pvp so figured gotta get good at it.

However, I love the randomization of the server. I enjoy the feel and he life that's breed into it.  The DM team is always on and seems to be cooking up stories all the time that really give folks a chance to interact with the world.   The main goal and general vibe of the server has been a real treat.   All around I've enjoyed my stay on the server and haven't really seen the 'bad' times as bad times.  I am also a major MMO nerd so the grind doesn't really bother me in the sense of having to continue to level. 

TLDR:  My fresh, first impression of EFU is be good at ring running, good at pvp or be online alot.  Or all three. Which to me are not bad things. Even if they are MMOish.  If this was not the impression that was wanted to be given then I guess that's a problem? Either way I think the Server's doing good I  was recommended to come here afterall.

[Arslefjun]

I'd like to add to this that I've played a solo concept from day one and jumping from being with different groups and running around solo.
So it can definitely be done it just requires some effort.

[Random_White_Guy]

TLDR:  My fresh, first impression of EFU is be good at ring running, good at pvp or be online a lot.  Or all three. Which to me are not bad things. Even if they are MMOish.  If this was not the impression that was wanted to be given then I guess that's a problem? Either way I think the Server's doing good I  was recommended to come here after all.

It's absolutely a great first impression! And it's been awesome to see Stannis' development as you've been rocking out. And I certainly didn't wish this post to be disparaging towards the efforts undertaking or dissuade anyone from playing. Nor to dissuade anyone from taking bold risks or otherwise like Akke mentions of solo efforts. As others have said there's just a mixture of growing pains, new systems, and a hodgepodge of frustrating things kind of all aligning at once.

On a fundamental level EFU is great in the sense a dedicated level 3 PC can totally overthrow a DM quest with a suitably ballsy move and a bit of cleverness. It's definitely a challenge but can be totally worthwhile and fun.

My greivance was more as mentioned by you and Kop, when you fall into that pit it starts to feel very real. Though a lot of discussion with PCs and DMs here and in discord has helped a fair amount.

In terms of some constructive advice I'd offer to anyone else feeling in the occasional doldrums:

- Today I had the fun enoucnter of hiring a higher level PC to drag my raggedy ass around the Fire Seam hunting meat with me. It was a fun little exchange at an off hour with few people on, but it was a lot of fun even if most of the time I was just healing them.

- Don't be afraid to ask for the occasional handouts. There's always bravado in some concepts but for others there's an entire Guild of Beggars and if you put in the effort PCs are glad to toss gold the occasional supply, or etc.

- While PCs are IC and OOCly dissuaded from taking about Rings at length, there's nothing to stop talking about COOL SEAMS. I had a great chat with a PC about a recent Demon Lair seam where me and some low level buddies got thrown out of to avoid getting slaughtered but the PC shared a bit of story from his other time undertaking the fight on a previous reset.

- If you're stuck play a less conventional build. Merchant, traveling bard, clergy, shiftless pickpocket, etc. Not every concept is made for high adventure or mad lad pvp or etc if the circumstance doesn't allow for it in the moment.

[SovietGrowlithe]

RWG - I can totally get that yeah. My first character on the server was niched into two good ring running groups and I didn't often get into that pit.  However on Stannis. Even today I died once more as I was so close to level 7.  Now I'm back down to five. The only bad part about the grind is like you mentioned. Getting lucky enough to be there when folks are actually doing the seams or quests.   Those bits of constructive advice are pretty spot on I think. 

[Craaazy Teds Discount Car]

I think RWG's points are well made.  Granted, as one I play one of the few characters who does not go adventuring I don't have a huge stake in this directly but I want people to have fun and have large player populations too!  None of them decided to make a big post about their leaving so I am not going to name them, but several friends who played quite a lot and decided to stop all voiced concerns very similar to what RWG said.

Player numbers have gone down a lot and while I am sure a lot of the increase was the newness and excitement of a new setting, I think a lot of the issues that RWG raised are part of it too.  We seem to be averaging 20 to 30 players at the high point during week days now and I suspect a large part of that is that it is just OOCly difficult.  Not that the quests are too hard, but that it is difficult to "reach" the content.