V5 Feedback Thread

[Random_White_Guy]

I wanted to dust off this old thread to re-hash some issues I'm still trying to reconcile.

Compared to the slog of EFUR, EFUV has been such a breath of fresh air. Getting away from the ever-looming menace of God-Tier Netherese NPCs and their machinations on the lore and such has been so great to break from. The amount of work, effort, energy, time, and focus put in by the DM staff into creating this new world and fresh lore is so very impressive. Considering it's all been done pro bono and as a passion project never fails to amaze.

To show this isn't just some knee-jerk reaction to recent events or otherwise, I wanted to cycle back around to the Pre-EFUV end of EFUR V4 Jan 19 Feedback Thread.

Back before we knew the server was going to be changing to an entirely new setting I had two concerns.

The last push of EFUR has been a great capstone but two thing I'd like to mention:

- Rentable Properties either tied to associations or factions was crippling.

- Please reduce/alter Associations going forward.

I've always been "The PC Faction Guy", it's the one thing you can get in EFU I feel you can't get anywhere else. There's plenty of dungeon games, or OOC Coordinated MMO raid games, or similar but in EFU has always had this feeling that you could potentially just roll up your sleeves and make something yourself.

A) Strongholds though are still too Niche and Association tied.

- Ticker requires 20k gold which is a huge investment and yet at the same time the Merchant Guild has no RP presence or expectations, which is like non-investment. PC Merchant Guild PCs have nothing to do politically and some have even actively said they don't want to get involved in politics. Which is just... a joke?

- Courthouse is too PVP heavy over investigative which I think is a mistake. It has such cool potential for investigation/policing changelings and otherwise but it just turns into instant cheap dirty messy PvP conflict

- Sunpurse Manor is tied to the entire sunpurse association.

- The Ponds Groundskeeper is beholden to Nature-Only PCs


B) The quality of Associations in EFUV compared to EFUR is light years advanced. There's so much lore and connection and efforts into the world building around Associations it can't be denied. Now more than ever they feel like they've got character and flavor.

The problem though is these associations have replaced DM factions but exist in a vacuum. Individual DM plots/actions Ruul destroyed A RING and DMs have him lulzing around, Velstra lost the King's Banner and it just means 'Oh no, out of wine', Nephezar slaughtered Krown's Daughter but that PC died and the Butcher faction empty, and most DMs don't want to touch Ticker Square so Solomon Krown doesn't matter now.

Because these  "Negatives" are tied to One-Off DM events rather than a larger plot there are never any negative repercussions for anything that happen to Associations in terms of plot or etc.

For current PCs in the association sure, you can lose support or your PC can be ended but the Association will just chug on towards its nebulous goal with an Immortal and Omnipowerful Lord and faceless army of NPCs with a few hero NPCs. And now Associations give so much to PCs to join up that there's no incentive to not hitch your wagon to these pursuits. It cultivates this culture of "Shooting for the Middle".

With no long term reprocussions from PC actions to associations it creates a zero sum game. So if you are playing an Association PC who fits what a current DM plot wants you're on top of the world.  Succeed and you get NPC support, resources and supplies, reputation and incentives, and similar.  At worst you fail and you get a reputation as a shit kicker and PCs and DMs see you as someone stirring conflict and you can maybe get some incentives in that regard.

This leads to a cycle of PCs just leaping through fire to accomplish NPC goals for DMs without lasting repercussion. Association's don't lose face, lose standing, lose prominence, lose anything. They just churn on all powerful.

The Stonebuilders lost the Defense Contract and they had... a slow spell? Fewer PCs joining for a while? That's a laughable outcome. But now PCs are rallying and trying a new direction.

And that just obliterates the desire to make a PC faction because nothing PCs can do ICly or OOCly will ever make PCs want to give PCs that kind of support, or if it is there's monumental negative repercussions. No one ever wants to "Kill Lord Grigori Orza because his Retainer beat me up", because PCs know these factions are invulnerable DM plot machines. But if Lord-Custodian Visimar's partially paid henchman who does something? You better pay up or you're a dead man.

People like to throw around "It's not about winning on EFU" but it's been proven time and again PCs will never support the losing side.

And against DM plots and Associations any PC faction will always lose, which seriously undercuts motivation to even try.

[Aethereal]

Ruul destroyed A RING and DMs have him lulzing around

Truth.

Because these  "Negatives" are tied to One-Off DM events rather than a larger plot there are never any negative repercussions for anything that happen to Associations in terms of plot or etc.

Perhaps though this can still be fixed, especially in regards to the above example.

For current PCs in the association sure, you can lose support or your PC can be ended but the Association will just chug on towards its nebulous goal with an Immortal and Omnipowerful Lord and faceless army of NPCs with a few hero NPCs. And now Associations give so much to PCs to join up that there's no incentive to not hitch your wagon to these pursuits. It cultivates this culture of "Shooting for the Middle".

Some effort to ensure continuity was made when the named NPC guardians were brought in to defend the Peerage Ward gate, as they started having association-specific conversations with PCs which varied by the PC's House affiliation, with references made to historical grievances involving PCs earlier in the chapter; but this is still a great critique. I think in general RWG's feedback has merit in terms of highlighting possible improvements that could be made to make the server feel more dynamic and alive.

[Blue41]

I was going to make some gentle suggestions but since it's been six-ish months since I originally posted in this feedback thread I'm going to just start typing.

I think we ought to get rid of the Builders/Butchers, make Ticker Square guard-free faction wise. If you want protection in Ticker Square, you should pay for it by paying PCs, and buy you a band of Bloodbeards. Ticker Square should be mercenary crew city--the strongholds support several different flavors of group so the mechanics support it, the Guildmembers all have varying agendas so the RP will support it, and as is, the Builders/Butchers barely do anything of note in their current roles as protectors and rabble rousers (the plots attached to them don't require them to be an Association or even tied to the Square).

I don't think any of the Ticker Strongholds are niche, exactly, but with the associations that do exist at the moment, there's less incentive to go for them. Given the choice between gathering a crew and building your spot up from the ground and free resting/armor/perks/protection, I can't blame people for going the Association route. This has also cultivated a certain degree of dependence upon NPC's (and DM's) because rather than come up with your own goals as a PC group, players become content/encouraged to just fulfill the wishes of their chosen association, like ticking off boxes.

Butchers fight Orza, Stonebuilders fight Butchers. Peerage Houses chase the Banner.  The PCs who go against the grain of their faction and do something radically different- don't affect the status quo. Guildmember Knaves, Guildmember Monsters, Peerage Knaves and oathbreakers to their Houses-- none of this makes a impact on their respective groups, because it can't, because these associations/groups can't be destroyed by one PC. They have to last. And if they're going to last no matter what PC's do, then nothing matters. The associations become different shades to slap on a build and throw at the enemy of the day (so long as we unite to face the Orcan threat later). And it just makes sense to join whichever group has the highest population (and consequently, support) because I want to play with people rather than wander around solo for 30 mins trying to find a group.

So concepts are softened as a result. You see less people making concepts that pick a side and take a stand on an issue, because being in the minority is hard and doing things ICly that are difficult to sustain OOCly is harder. And if that stand is against any kind of DM-backed faction, doubly so--which is why Ib'javi faced so little opposition and now the attitude has shifted to one of ambivalence at best. It is easier- and often more rewarding- to follow the NPC who tells you what to do. I've been guilty of this as well, and in hindsight, it was a mistake because it meant sacrificing what my PC would've done ICly for the sake of cheap conflict and a perhaps a pat on the head in the form of loot/exp/rank. I suspect I'm not alone in this.

Maybe this comes down to PCN's, and it's just harder, as a DM, to find that little guy trying to make something for himself outside of an association. I haven't bothered with them for a while personally, and I can't speak on how many do, and if they push things other than what their group would want. I just think of all the big swings people took in previous chapters; efforts sustained by PC groups over time. Building dwarven halls and razing them. Birthing and slaying dragons. Freeing ancient evils and chaining them up again. I don't think we've seen it yet this chapter, or if we have, I wouldn't be able to tell from the rumors thread, which has yet to feature a mention of a PC group to date. Plenty of PC individuals, though.

[Grix]

Ticker square could certainly use a change of pace. I would definitely agree the Stonebuilders have less presence there post-contract-loss. The ones living in ticker square are really just a guild for laborers and stonemasons. They definitely should not 'go away' as a faction though. The Stonebuilders are rich with story and lore well beyond what is commonly known about them. And the presence of the faction is actually based out of an entirely different ring all-together. The Ticker square builders are a small sub-faction who basically retired from the great quest to live quiet lives in an old abandoned Stonebuilder outpost.

I personally would like to see (and work toward) an evolution of the stonebuilders away from ticker square specifically. I think of them like the doorkeepers. Like custodians that can be found all along the city, searching for secrets, trying to repair damaged sections and helping people who need it all over the rings. This faction has a lot of story to be explored and frankly none of it is really in Ticker square any more aside from the npc laborers living and working there.

[Loughman]

Do you have a system in mind that would be a good replacement for ticker square?

[zerotje]

I think there needs to be an increase in ward vs ward vs ward.

The best way in my opinion is if something were to happen in the Commons that causes the three wards to be against each other more.
Right now there's a whole "You go live in your Ward. I'll live in my Ward. May we never see each other" going on.

The dispensary is just "sport" and no conflict spawns from that.
Perhaps it should be player initiative to attempt to "rule over the Commons" or perhaps faction NPC's should hint that way or something entirely new.

[the battle of marathon]

no please no more hub/faction tribalism

conflict should be synthesised from the clash of ideologies of respective pcs that players actually find interesting to pursue, not cheap conflict for the peanut gallery in discord to observe

if people want to play neutral hub friendly men/women, that's their prerogative

[CorstoTerrore]

Agreed with the above.

There is, and will be, conflict between areas. It's not there all the time, but it develops organically when certain individuals get involved. Then their friends get involved and there you have it.

Having the Dispensary be more 'sporty' than a proper kill or be killed fight is actually a good thing. It used to be a very lethal thing to do, up to a point where only a handful of people dared attend and the whole thing lost its purpose. And even so, the more sporty image it has now was mainly achieved due to IC actions of characters punishing others who used it as a cheap way to murder someone downed during a bout. It can still happen, has happened already, but OOC enforcing it will just make it the playing ground of a strong group of buddy PCs, rendering it useless.

Also, with all the cataclysmic events happening recently, it's no wonder most (not all, mind you) PCs tend to suffer each other better, because there are bigger, common threats to face. And again, this is caused by IC things happening, not because players just agreed not to be at each others' throats.

[Trevor White]

With regards to the hubs. I've found it odd that the only (obvious, that I know of)  door to Ring 97 is in the Ponds.  If the idea is that PC hubs are meant to attract a certain sort of PC, then putting a major highway through one hub makes it into a "travel zone" rather than a "hub". Whereas Ticker's only got one high-traffic in and out route, and the Peerage Ward has the bridge and gates before you enter the Ward itself, so there's a clear internal boundary if you're passing through. You can always see what's happening in the Ponds. I think it reduces the sense it's "Someone Else's Area and We Don't Belong Here" when there's regular, apparently unavoidable travel through it. I reckon the three-hub structure would benefit from an obvious second gate into Ring 97. Or a longer distance and clearer boundary between the path through Ring 97, and the Ponds themselves. So you literally need to go off the beaten path to find it, and can't see things from the road.

In general though, WOW this is a step up. I left just near the end of EFU:A and the super-dark feel of EFU:Revelations didn't appeal to me. But I always loved playing Rangers or Rogues and just wandering the server in search of interesting places and lore. And recruiting teams to come tackle the randoms I found. It was so much more satisfying than a clockwork quest train. So this chapter is so far massively my jam. Simple changes like the gold sacks and supply crates mean there's an incentive to take big parties and more people get to see the cool stuff. The world feels just a bit less dangerous in the local areas, enough that I don't feel like running around without maxed stealth and/or invis is painting a giant target on my PC's back. For example, the Nightrisers meant that half the time on EFU:A, even the Hub was a bit risky. And a siege mentality encourages routine and optimisation rather than flair.  The randomised quest locations mean that exploring and variety are the order of the day. It's fun! It encourages you to push more, take more risks, and not powerbuild to survive.

AND THEN THERE'S THE RUNE PILLARS. I love the rune pillars, they're the best thing for questing. Powerful enough you often can get away without a caster or pick yourself up after a monster with dispel. Unpredictable enough you can't depend on them. Surprisingly useful at the end of a quest to buff you for the trek back. Again, an incentive to take some calculated risks, let the wizards pack numerous fireballs, and generally have some fun. And on the subject of fireballs, the various spell and GSF overhauls make me keen to play a kaboom caster. I've played a few, and I like to think I did well on them. But they never seemed that impressive in earlier chapters due to a preponderance of mind-immune foes, Spell Resistance, long quests, etc. Now I'm itching to have a GSF Acid sorcerer spamming cantrips and lowering AC, or a Wizardly evoker making everything burst into flames and keep burning.

The one negative bit of feedback I have about all this wonder and variety is that it's frustrating to carry round bag after bag of herbalist reagents in the hope you'll run into a lab at a convenient time.  Especially for dangerous/interesting alchemy and herbalism, you need the convenient alignment of "A full bag, a convenient lab, and someone to buff you up and watch your back". I think the server would benefit from the lab spaces having more than one type of workbench, increasing the chances both for players to find their fun, and for different sorts of crafter to meet and cooperate or conflict.

[zerotje]

I think the people speaking against faction tribalism don't see what I see. Alot of PCs are just out there doing their own thing. Even when their own thing is awesome it doesnt mean others will support it.

I dont think it needs to be one or the other. Both should work fine. I'd personally like a better implemented Butcher vs Orza. The Peerage houses also have really vague goals I dont really see get picked up. They should have clearer primary goals that players can fill in with creative subgoals.

Groups are where the fun and character development is. Individuals are where the unique concepts are but atm I feel like a decent amount of people are way too divided and not interacting.

Not everyone is  a great creative and they should have a noob faction to jump in rather than afk a barstool and only quest.

[Howlando]

In general though, WOW this is a step up.

Love to hear this kind of feedback, keep it up.

With regards to the hubs. I've found it odd that the only (obvious, that I know of)  door to Ring 97 is in the Ponds.  If the idea is that PC hubs are meant to attract a certain sort of PC, then putting a major highway through one hub makes it into a "travel zone" rather than a "hub".

The Ponds was originally not a travel-through area, but the decision was to make it such. Think of it like the outskirts, a camp of disreputables squatting in an old park through which other people travel. 

When the Ponds was just another area connected to the Commons it felt a bit sad and empty.

I think the current design is s working pretty well - there are other places to spawn if you want to stay out of sight.

[Equinox]

After a few weeks back IG after a six year break. I'd like to start off giving a serious pat on the back to all involved. The mechanics changes, use of HAKs and more have really allowed the server to flourish.

Having played in all five settings for this story, EFU:COR is rapidly becoming my favourite.

The abilty and expansion towards player focused factions seems extremely obvious, which I am a HUGE  fan of. Allowing more and more player created factions/ associations to thrive without DM oversight needed is something that the server does really well.

The cannon changes to allow players to craft their own religious Deity, by far a huge addition to the server. FR gods whilst many have their merits, are limited. This change once again allows much more diverse and complex concepts based around religion.

It's very good to be back. Especially during this time of isolation for many, EFU:COR seems to be more active than ever.

Kudos, to players and DM's alike.

[VanillaPudding]

I'm only a few days in myself, and while my break was not nearly as long as my old friend EQ there, I have to fully agree with him! I'm already intrigued by the things I thought that I would not like with the setting and truly wish that I had hopped in far earlier!

Ring running  looks interesting to say the least (even if not full on gunning for ring 1)
The religious aspects are fantastic
The FEEL of the primary areas (peerage, ticker, ponds) is really nice. The multiple transitions from ticker / peerage into the King's Commons is awesome and has a really cool nostalgic feel for me from EFUA :D

My only concern has been finding other characters, but that will come as I get more familiar with where folks hang out (since it's usually not taverns :P )

Overall, really cool so far!