Questing and Mechanical Balance in Modern EFUR

[Kinslayer988]

I think about balancing fairly often. Mostly because I enjoy throwing things into EFU and seeing how they play out. I began reading this thread http://www.efupw.com/forums/index.php?topic=687492.0 and began writing. By its end I felt that making a new thread would be better.


EFU is a game of drastically different skill levels. Some people can 3 man hard quests while some will have to 8 man it. Sometimes you do it because that is just how many people you have in a group. Other times people want to get the most loot for their group size possible.


A part of how current efu content is scaled is the less people you have the more loot you will get.However the less people you have the harder the quest will be.


Some quests are scaled to be harder with more people but can offer certain bonuses like the big gold chest that requires a party to open.


My reply on the 'crushing' is that this has been an issue since Efu1 where some people are just 'better' at questing. Determining when to use potions, how to optimize supplies, and how to have a net gain. Match that with the other factor. Some players just have more time or desire to dump into the mechanics side. Players from every chapter are accused of powergaming, questing too much, or being too mechanically minded.


As a player I played a PC named Ysarach Imral and one of my ooc goals was to experience all the questing content I floundered with on past pcs and get a lot of supply to pvp. I had a group of pcs in a small faction who wanted to join me and our little group began to go through the questing cycle.


I learned from the experience just how much time one can dump to become powerful/supplied and it was very long. I remember questing once for 6 hours straight. It got me tired and mentally fatigued. Repeat this over multiple days and yes you could get supplied but it is exhausting.


The experienced got me into a mindset of searching for ways to look over questing and loot as a whole. To put it in simple terms people who are able to quest or crush with absolute ease are deviations of the norm. However most people do so because they genuinely enjoy questing and that part of the server! Some people just like being more mechanically powerful. To me I want to find some balance as a developer so that the gameworld doesn't suddenly break while not removing something fun for others.


EFU is a roleplaying game. It is also an action game with PVE and PVP. DND is also a roleplaying game with PVE and PVP. There have been talks on EFU that pve and pvp are not true aspects of the server. Mechanical baggage that can be used as a tool to exert control and force the game. The fact is that EFU must strike a perpetual balance. In DND it would be like someone from another dnd party enters your game levels higher than you, stacked with loot, and suddenly starts talking big. Maybe even fighting you! It is a huge imbalance to say the least. Yet that player worked for it in the other campaign. Spent their time even if you never saw it. Yet it still remains unfair.


I think that there is a mechanical balance to be struck with these 'crushers' and everyone else. Certain players make strong and powerful pcs. Most of the time these pcs go on to become prominent figures. Heroes or villains that control the server so long as they remain supplied. I think that these characters provide an obstacle. Something to conquer and a true feat to overcome. While they can stay, one has to yet wonder how fair it is.


Looking at the efur loot tables and end quests I can certainly say our current situation was unintentional and came from the gradual changes of the original efur design. Post Crystal War or efur part 2, we decided to slowly change the design for gold and supply gain. Part of this resulted in levels and quests being changed and people being able to reach higher levels fairly easily but supplies trailing off. The supply trail off was unintended as not all quests were rennovated to undertake the balancing of efur part 2.


Options for rebalancing would be:
A) Scaling loot up and removing 'garbage' which would increase loot gain for small and big groups. (Small groups benefit more)
B) Make the quest spawns static and unchanging regardless of how many people take the quest. (Less people the more difficult but more loot/xp and more people an easier quest)
C) Offer special chests that spawn when more people enter the quest. (Scaling more loot to make doing the quest with more people on par)
D) All of the above
E) Got a better idea? Post it!


I am eager to hear what the server has to say in this conversation so we can craft a better EFU experience for everyone. Be it they quest one night a week or everyone day.

[Time_Stomped]

The problem with that is that it is specific to quests vs. people that quest frequently.

A slow-burning/over time % cap on scripted rewards might have to be made to curb things. just like the exp cap on some servers  If they do every quest after every reset, it might curb the extremes of the profit margin happening extremely often.

[Stranger]

I believe that EFU should remain dangerous and harsh at higher levels, but generous at lower levels. It should be difficult to gain then hold the upper limits of power. This principle is seen throughout the structure of EFU:R as I first knew it; it is the basic reason why each death takes away a large percentage of experience points. There are disadvantages to this, yes. This philosophy of loss is part of what makes EFU so forbidding for many of the players I have tried to introduce to it. This kind of uphill march is not for everyone. But I was told that this server was founded with purpose of being on the HARDCORE side of things anyway...

Naturally, EFU does not go too hard. It does not make the mistake of some other settings and force meaningless deaths to be the permanent end of things. It is good that it does not. That is not fun. We are here to have fun. Following that train of thought, should we make this environment friendlier to all involved? Easier? Simpler? Does that cheapen the experience? Does that alleviate the quest fatigue that I've heard many veterans complain about?

I have noticed many DMs commenting with words of confusion or annoyance at how many characters rode comfortably near the soft cap—something that has much to do with the shifting design philosophy of what late game content should be like. Much of that trend has to do with the overall increase in such content. A Distant Shore... is a good example of a quest explicitly intended for those at the height of high adventure; it came out only a couple years ago. It is a fun, excellent, and rewarding quest. And you don't have any business doing it before level eight.

I have also heard stories about how in EFU1—unlike the common, "optimal" builds we use today—the average player made all kinds of silly design choices because they were newbies. You didn't have to such-and-so Constitution or Strength, or a certain feat, to competitive. They say that everyone was terrible. I read posts in the old forum advising new wizards to prepare Magic Weapon instead of Magic Missile in order to spare their parties untold agony at the paws of a quest's Chosen Rogue. TheBeggar wrote a morbidly amused analysis of how character would ignore choke points and wade into the middle of large groups. Et cetera.

How much has EFU's community changed already? And what should it change into now?

Bear in mind that my experiences on this server may not be indicative of the desired experience, as my 200+ PCs have been maimed, robbed, crippled, slaughtered, cursed, and tortured in every conceivable way. I even have the dubious honor of playing an Ascensionist who was abruptly castrated by a loathsome Watcher two days into his career. Take my endorsement for a harder EFU with a grain of salt, because I've always viewed EFU as a hard, pitiless place—I'm not the one who would suffer for it. I'd just feel right at home.

[zDark Shadowz]

Switched from my phone to my laptop to better type this out. [Cracks knuckles] Taking (Option E) here.

Before entering EFU, people have come from various places and bring different things to the server.

Hi, my name is zDark Shadowz :P and I've mostly come from Action and PvP oriented servers and games, wasn't until about 8-9? years ago that I picked up NWN on and off again between other online MMORPGs, playing in a LOT of different servers, DMing in a couple... and then cue me entering here a little over two years ago.

I can say from my perspective that balance-wise, the quests that aren't solo offer everything that is required of a challenge. Difficulty, risk, constant resource management. I haven't really seen anything excessively in the extreme, (but I have heard of a certain underwater lvl 8 max quest recently that is apparently stupidly bad), nor have I seen a quest where people consistently run through sweeping everything to the side in one hit (aside from the time we had to speed-run against the clock to do the mino's labyrinth lol.)

What some people don't have is the time and effort spent into learning the true capabilities of their classes, and perks that are available. That's kind of when I started going by the other IG username of Limit Break, wrote a forum post discussing the advantages and disadvantages between playing a Barbarian vs a Fighter  http://www.efupw.com/forums/index.php?topic=674889.msg674889#msg674889 , and doing some really insane things within the limitations of the game, to try and show people what is possible. SanTelmo's arena being broadcast by Canzah was a nice opportunity for the barbarian I made, Caraz Rasharn (an example I made applying my own ideas I discussed practically), and even the positivist back on my previous GSID as Shane Lyonson when the app was approved to bring him back (thanks again for that.) My RSD... didn't fare so well in the recent one but I'm not perfect! Didn't expect a balagarns iron horn interruption at a critical moment from outside influence, these things happen, but I'd like to think he was another good example.

The fact is the players here are at different levels of mechanical education. There's a habit about shying away from mechanical discussions of characters in a roleplay server, which means people that can do both roleplay and build properly are at a different level of play than someone that's joined in just looking for a good time. Here, knowledge is power, literally.

... and I'm not talking about meta IG knowledge. Just basic knowledge of the cans and can'ts of your own characters' potential. When I play a game I do the research, crunch the numbers, read other peoples opinions, theories, find something that works for me and optimise what I want to play with how I envision seeing it IG... it doesn't always work out, of course. My vaults are littered with PCs that died in extravagant ways or quietly disappeared.

My (Option E)? It's really just education, providing it for people that want to learn. I know its useless, nerdy, and has no real world applications to teach people how to play a game released almost sixteen years ago but it's going to be more relevant if the player base does significantly increase with the release of NWN: EE, there may be many players that simply don't know what they are doing as they enter in and will find what we're finding easy/non-rewarding as extremely difficult.

I'd encourage anyone to write up tutorials, base level of education on each class, strengths, weaknesses, options. Look at different angles, point distributions, and what is optimal? DM's to make a sticky thread when you see a good tutorial and copy/paste what they deem the relevant and important notes into it so if someone wants to do *really quick* research they can click a link and see advice that is catered toward this servers' level range and potential difficulty.

[Damien]

....A Distant Shore... is a good example of a quest explicitly intended for those at the height of high adventure; it came out only a couple years ago. It is a fun, excellent, and rewarding quest. And you don't have any business doing it before level eight.

The fact you say something like that makes me question whether or not you understand the difference between an OOC and an IC choice is. There are always overwhelming dangers to your character, whether you're level two or level ten, they however shouldn't dictate your choices unless you are either playing a coward pc or metagaming the quest so you know not to do it. You should always push for braving something extreme, as you'll ultimately find it exciting and dms will give you kudos.


Having said that, I would say what I said above literally only applies to Distant Shore. Why? If you survive as a low level you will gain a lot of experience and there is some actual good loot on it so you will be equipped also. I look at every other quest and find that is not the case, which I suppose is what Kinslayer is eluding to with the good exp and poor supplies.


I would put it as simply as if you were doing this quest over and over, or even once, would you have fun? I think the dms have designed the quests well enough that it is always enjoyable to survive each quest the first time on your new char. Beyond that point though it is just not fun. How can I possibly have fun battling all the way through seers, almost dying at level 8-10, to receive 200gp. That is literally what just happened. I would then almost say I'm ripped from the quest in an OOC fashion, as why would the lich be so poor? The same goes for beholders when you just find 200gp at the end and alchemy regeants. It just fundamentally does not make sense to me, and you can say "oh stop complaining, it is the difficulty of the server" etc, etc but I would rather the difficulty of the setting be that I die in a scenario of overwhelming odds than due to a supply drain. You might as well remain level 6 at that point.


I'm currently actually struggling to understand why I should even quest, except to help some newbies level up. It isn't the greatest of fun.


I would suggest the following;


1) Just remove the possible crap that spawns and set a floor in terms of power, one where the base still fits the challenge of the quest. So no matter what you have a reward that makes sense.
2) Add more heroes, and rare spawns that could spice up the quests more. Though again bring a reward to it.
3) More content is always appreciated obv.

[Hollow_Mage]

Suggestions put as succinctly as possible:

Perpetual quests - Recruitment is open for 1-4 players at a time, who are given /c setally for each other automatically for the duration of the quest.

Multiple parties - A second group of 1-4 players can enter the same quest area by talking to the same quest placeable. Their party is /c setally'd independently.

Persistent spawns - The enemies in an area may continue to spawn in ways that are believeable. The arrival of a boss during a siege/survival quest, or an innermost section where a most-powerful enemy exists may not be the cue for quest completion. In fact, it is likely that the only metric for certain quests' completion is the willingness of a single member of the party to return to the quest completion marker and turn in his/her/its accumulated reward.

Complete lootdrop overhaul - Scrolls, Potions, and Wands should come from players or NPC shopkeepers, and prices should reflect that. Buying from a player should still be the best option, but focusing supplies on hubs and gold/equipment on quests/raids allows you to soft/hard-cap the amount of scrolls/potions/wands that CAN be found in the entire module per reset, based solely on what those players can afford to buy and how fast. To balance against the likelihood of crafter burnout, reduce XP costs by half for crafting, allow Arcane Mimics to use Craft Wand, and implement the Candlecaster as a Wizard Generalist Perk (along with Metamage).

You might just be looking to slaughter something, face a challenge, or pursue a goal. It may not be about supplies. Therefore, why not fight the same gnoll tribe for the entire length of time you want, improvise your own denouement naturally through emergent democracy, and cash out a bit more XP for your time instead of just supplies? After all, besides Gold and Equipment, there are no more potions and you'll need to be heading back.

Good thing you brought the RSD; NOW he's useful.

-

Quests that make sense could be recruited for in town, given directions as dialogue or a map as an item, and upon completion, licensed Adventurers get licensed reward. Conversely, chaotic quests may be more open-ended, such as defending X number of rothe from Y number of wolves, based on who signs on together and how many parties go in.

[Stranger]

The fact you say something like that makes me question whether or not you understand the difference between an OOC and an IC choice is. There are always overwhelming dangers to your character, whether you're level two or level ten, they however shouldn't dictate your choices unless you are either playing a coward pc or metagaming the quest so you know not to do it. You should always push for braving something extreme, as you'll ultimately find it exciting and dms will give you kudos.

You are missing the context of the remark. I have myself done all sorts of quests while absurdly under-prepared (a level two ascetic entering the Sandy Crypt, a level six paladin bravely leading the attack in a Terrifying Cave, etc). I had no business being down there, fighting those monsters. It was fun. It was great. It was wildly inappropriate to the challenge at hand, and I could hardly come away expecting a profitable adventure... assuming my character returned at all!

As it is meant to be. This is content geared toward characters at the pinnacle of attainable power. That it is possible for lower level characters to attempt it is beside the point. It's not scaled for them. These are options for the big dinosaurs of a generation and the increasing number of options has made their position more sustainable. More players reach this level, keep it, and desire more from it in turn. This high caliber adventuring is what we are discussing. That is the crux of our conversation. Lower participants are tangential. Keep up.

How can I possibly have fun battling all the way through seers, almost dying at level 8-10, to receive 200gp. That is literally what just happened.

What happened to the powerful scrolls, illithid devices, and hero loot on that dungeon's table? Were there too many people to share them? Did the loot tables produce nothing but junk in every box and bookshelf? Was your party skimmed raw? I know brain cakes are useless now that EFUSS Cooking is disabled...

Did someone skim you raw, or has that quest radically changed since I last did it?
1) Just remove the possible crap that spawns and set a floor in terms of power, one where the base still fits the challenge of the quest. So no matter what you have a reward that makes sense.
2) Add more heroes, and rare spawns that could spice up the quests more. Though again bring a reward to it.
3) More content is always appreciated obv.

1) I like the idea of a static challenge and static reward in each dungeon. It is certainly a final answer to any complaints on unrealistic or disappointing hoards. I especially like to work with known, definite quantities when I'm questing. But I have no idea how an absence of scaling would actually balance the quests we undertake. It is also contrary to the interests of EFU itself to encourage small groups. Even if small, well-coordinated teams are my favorite way to fight, there is a reason Talir introduced the Reinforced Gold Chests.

2) Heroes are wonderful, but perhaps best suited as optional mini-bosses and additional challenges for a veteran group. Some can handle them. But an untimely hero spawn can rip through a weaker or less prepared group as if they were tissue paper.

3) More content is always a good thing. Just look at the rich bounty of awesomeness we've gotten from the illusion chambers, bringing back the quests of previous chapters.

[Sem]

Option A & C.

[MineralRichToil]

I'm sure like most people I like options A and C, but that might be selfish self interest

[Howlando]

This is a lot of text, the easiest answer at this stage is simply to increase the per/PC base rate of gold to whatever the appropriate level would be to take into account loot fluctuations. If it's still too low for specific quests then we can increase it. I am happy to hear suggestions about what a good per PC gold amount would be to ensure characters that do the quest don't leave with too many tears even if they got a little unlucky on the loot rolls.

I also think our high level quest range has a problem with all the quests (or at least the ones people think about) are too "epic" - too long, too difficult. More easy-going high level content would be good, but perhaps with randomized locations to encourage groups of PCs going out and exploring rather than the repetitive feeling of "hitting the same quest in the same spot for the same gold" every reset.

I've found that when we introduce genuinely good loot into tables, it just becomes too common - gets sold for a couple hundred to new PCs - so, although this will be a slow process, I've actually come to favor super good loot more often enter the game world  from occasional/rarer merchants for large sums of gold.

There is the same old tension between players who, upon reaching high levels are all too aware of the difficulties of maintaining their power, vs. the tension of trying (with some futility) to keep EFU a hardscrabble place with an average level of around 7.

That said, I continue to make the observation that the high level PCs still seem super well supplied! So the supplies must be coming from somewhere.

[Bearic]

I think we could look at different rewards too. Most of the quests have underlining in-character reasons for the pcs to be there, if finishing the quest enough times made an active difference in the environment of the underdark it would reward making choices in where and how you quest.


While some quests already have these advantages associated with factions, like fighting Aberrations on quests was a double bonus to Ordinants, I don't think it would hurt if you're trying to keep mechanical loot and levels low, if you gave further chance to reshape part of the server due to player actions.

[VanillaPudding]

Remove the "garbage", add back in the variety, and for all that is good in the EFU world please stop dropping single potions in high end quests.

Maybe the team would be interested in some OOC runs of these high end quests sometime with some of us that do enjoy the content and do it for the enjoyment of questing? Copy a character, give yourselves 10 of all your favorite potions that are normal, and see how many you come out with at the end? Then see how much gold you made and how many potions that can buy from PC brewers (if any are around). In my opinion, quests should always have SOME decent reward, sometimes break even, and sometimes be highly rewarding. It currently SEEMS that on most of the content, at least when talking about the 9+ and some of the 8 max stuff, that you will usually come out at a loss. I'd also suggest that you see how much stuff is left on the floor after a lot of quests are completed


There are exemptions to this obviously. When some Paladin and his positivists friend (just some example, don't think it happened) roll through Seers in 10 minutes and use nothing, that can begin to skew everything around them really quickly. Same thing with lycans and other things that can  be somewhat "immune" to the static NPCs, they can cause a surplus that eventually falls back into the hands of others as they die. I tend to assume that a lot of supplies / gold actually enter the world this way, and it's often other powerful characters / groups that killed them in the first place.




In short, options A / C are both neat enough.

[zDark Shadowz]

When some Paladin and his positivists friend (just some example, don't think it happened) roll through Seers in 10 minutes and use nothing, that can begin to skew everything around them really quickly.

I can attest while playing my ex-positivist that any group I was in always plussed even when loot wasn't great due to extremely low healing supplies used. In both DS and Seers. But this positivist wore everything except his boots with bonus spell-slots and used summonings interchangeably with healing.


Have the right characters with the right roles is all you need.*

[Hollow_Mage]

How about adding packs of monsters/enemies that will show up regardless of the Quest Area?


This is in addition to the good suggestions already in place.


Essentially, the Troglodytes would have a chance of having a low level Sahuagin. The Sahuagin quest could have a chance of adding a dozen Troglodyte slaves or something.


It's just about unpredictability, right?


Or: more low stealth enemies that target the character who deals the LEAST damage. Goblin assassins can be a bit much, but Goblin Rogues should know to geek the Mage.

[putrid_plum]

Personally I've never had big issues with supplies to be honest.  Though I admit after a large PvP brawl / encounter at the high end, L10, it can be tuff.  What I will say is that I want to see more quests where encounters are not straight forward fight a hoard of enemies and hack them down.  Things like ambushes, sneaking assassins / rogues, crafty mages who do more than spam dispels, maybe even puzzles or some sort of some sort to solve under pressure to progress?  Just some ideas there.  Another thing I would like to see changed is boss fights.  I'm sure this is hard to balance but as you go up in levels boss fights seem to be, for me at least, how much death magic and crazy save or die type encounters you can cram in.  I'd rather see a fight where you engage a boss, when he dies he retreats maybe minions spawn or perhaps a quest where you chase a boss through a QA engaging in challenges as you go.  Encounters a bit more interesting akin to 'Sand Crypt', Distant Shores, and Driders are more appealing I think in the long run.


I agree with VP in that on the high end content just having single potions or 10 cure moderate is a joke.  It encourages small groups of 3-4 to the max.  Still that stuff is hardly useful unless it's a powerful potion, non-craftable.  If you're fighting a LICH or a giant formian QUEEN you should have loot appropriate to the encounter.  The Temple of Vera is huge on this.  While I've not done it in a long time, mostly due to this, the reward for the final 'optional' boss was sad.  Of course the encounter could have been reworked since then which is 100% possible!