Improved Zealous Faith

[Danse Macabre]

[INDENT]Zealous Faith - Those who come to the realization that their magic is a god given gift find that their devotion does not go unrewarded. Often, this manifests itself depending on what deity a person will serve, becoming more and more obvious in the magics they call forth. Whatever the origin, their spellcraft becomes empowered to smite the foes of their patron.

Level 1: +2 Divine Save, "Protection from Alignment" provides +1 extra AB against the chosen alignment. Divine Favor (5) 3/day
Level 5: +2 Fear Save, "Shield" offers an additional +2 AC, and 50% Damage Immunity to negative energy damage for neutral & good, 50% Damage Immunity to divine damage for evil
Level 8: +2 Will Save, "Flame Weapon" is replaced with divine damage and glow for neutral & good, negative energy damage and glow for evil, Hammer of the Gods (7) 1/day

(...as opposed to...)

Level 1: +2 Divine Save, When cast on oneself, "Magic Weapon" induces an additional +1 divine damage for neutral & good, +1 negative energy damage for evil, Bless (2) 3/day
Level 5: +2 Fear Save, When cast on oneself, "Shield" offers an additional +2 AC, and 50% Damage Immunity to negative energy damage for neutral & good, 50% Damage Immunity to divine damage for evil
Level 8: +2 Will Save, When cast on oneself, the damage of "Flame Weapon" is replaced with divine damage and glow for neutral & good, negative energy damage and glow for evil

[/INDENT]

[Pentaxius]

I think what it needs is some truly unique mechanical quirk. Spells x/day are fluff mostly, stop-gaps for less interesting ideas. Spell alteration provide uniqueness, but 'better AC' with the shield spell doesn't really cut it either...What I think would be awesome to pump up the religious twist would be something like:

Level 1: may carry and use a relic (only the item bonuses, max restriction Cleric level 3) of appropriate alignment (or similar restriction).  
Level 5: restriction up to level 5.
Level 8: restriction up to level 7.

Could lead to interesting takes by 'real' relic guardians who may object that a sorcerer would usurp the last fragments divinity to power his own blood...

[BrokenMercy]

Pentaxius, that could certainly be an interesting concept, but doesn't that cut into the unique role/niche that RG currently has?

[wundyweiss]

I see a few problems with your suggestions.

First, divine favor and Hammer of the Gods will take up a whole round to activate, unless they're instant cast which seems kinda obnoxious. I'd rather just drink a potion of favor, and not worry about Hammer of the Gods.

Second, +1 AB isn't anything compared to the several other 'melee sorcerer' perks there are.

The real problem with this perk is that it offers benefits for damage that aren't really common. Negative might be seen a little more, but divine is hardly, if ever, applied, so the immunities you're granted are essentially worthless. There's also a way easier way to get divine FW for yourself (positivist). There's also literally no AB bonuses, even though it tries to be like a melee sorcerer. I like that you tried to add that aspect in, but really, what are you getting that a spellsword or lifestealer won't?

I think the perk would just have to shift its entire make up entirely. It could be something like,

Level 1: +2 Fear, +2 Divine / Negative energy damage on MW.
Level 5: +2,Death +2 Shield benefit, +1 AB vs opposing alignment
Level 8: +2 Will, Flame weapon is given divine / negative effect, +2 ab vs opposing alignment.

That makes it a lot more comparable to spellsword, even though spellsword is still stronger in all regards (bonus to ac, don't have to worry about alignment, etc)

If you don't want to do the spellsword approach, focus on the defenses.

Level 1: +2 Fear, +2 saves vs opposing alignment
Level 5: +2 Death, +2 DC against opposing alignment, +2 Shield bonus
Level 8: +2 Will, +4 Shield bonus, +3 saves vs opposing alignment

That's a hundred times more worthwhile than the DI that won't ever be applied to you. It gives your DCs a massive boost, it gives you the saves of a wizard, and you're a bit more durable like what the perk is /trying/ to do, but fails miserably at what it does.

Closing point, the perk just needs to be rethought completely. I don't expect it be shifted to something like what I suggested above, but more to give an idea that there's a lot you can do to approach the whole 'faith obsessed' sorcerer, something that plays on bonuses and defenses against opposing alignment. Just don't make it DI based.

[zDark Shadowz]

If the damage immunity on the perk was level-swapped with the flame weapon element shift, might be interesting to take Divine Champion with, stopping at lvl 5/6 sorc.

[Danse Macabre]

If it needs to be more powerful, then:

Zealous Faith - Those who come to the realization that their magic is a god given gift find that their devotion does not go unrewarded. Often, this manifests itself depending on what deity a person will serve, becoming more and more obvious in the magics they call forth. Whatever the origin, their spellcraft becomes empowered to smite the foes of their patron.

Level 1: +2 Divine Save, "Protection from Alignment" provides +1 extra AB against the chosen alignment. Turn Undead
Level 5: +2 Fear Save, "Shield" offers an additional +2 AC, and 50% Damage Immunity to negative energy damage for neutral & good, 50% Damage Immunity to divine damage for evil, Hammer of the Gods (7) 1/day
Level 8: +2 Will Save, "Flame Weapon" is replaced with divine damage and glow for neutral & good, negative energy damage and glow for evil, Divine Power (7) 1/day

[Kinslayer988]

I am currently thinking of alternatives myself. What I would like to see is basically Danse Macabre's suggestion. I would like for zealous faith users to be melee focused for sure.

[zDark Shadowz]

It really does seem like a perk designed to accompany Divine Champion...

I think at level 8 it could have a player tool useable 3x a day with a slight cool down between uses that applies damage to a nearby target, sort of like a bonus attack smite.

[Lannister]

What about giving them Turn Undead/divine shield/Might at certain levels

[Kinslayer988]

I think that divine power/day would really help out zealous faith

Decided against it after further testing.

[Danse Macabre]

Thanks to Tala's scripting, the sorcerer should be able to get Divine Might and Divine Shield as normal feats if they have Turn Undead as a bonus feat on their roster. Note how in my second mock-up, I imagined giving it to them at level 1.

The Protection from Alignment +AB bonus would apply to everyone so buffed, including others, and stack with itself or other AB bonuses like Bless, Divine Favor, or Aid would. This has significant, subtle power, and is competitive with the +2 AB that a Spellsword has. Being able to give special flame weapon effects to others, like the positivist does, is also a powerful asset. Do not underestimate what +1d6 divine damage can do.

[wundyweiss]

As I'm currently playing a Zealous Faith right now, the problem still remains with additions that don't really do anything. Mainly the 50% DI, and the +2 divine saves. Both of these are hardly seen in game. They could be replaced with probably almost anything, and see far more utility than what those two offer for the perk. This is why I suggested switching divine saves for death saves,because death saves are applied far more commonly.

Secondly, I like how bless works. It's not noted properly as level/turn, so that's pretty handy in some cases. I've not hit 8 yet, but I heavily dislike the idea of getting a different flame weapon just for myself, when a positivist can apply positive flame weapon to /everyone/. That alone makes the perk not that great. The +2 Shield bonus is nice, but it's on a time limit, and can be dispelled. The magic weapon bonus is OK, but I have a feeling it might not stack with the flame weapon effect when I hit 8, which is a massive turn off.

I don't think getting turn undead is worth it in this case, because even if they get that, they'd have to waste two whole feats for say, divine might. Which is not even worth it. The perk, if it's to be the melee sorcerer build people want it to be, need AB bonuses. I don't get why you wouldn't just add +1 AB vs good / evil as a static thing for them, if that's the case.