Barbarians

[wundyweiss]

Fix them.

They were alright before their changes, now they have nothing going for them. A whole pool of HP doesn't mean a damn thing if they don't have the AC / AB to keep up with. Here. I'll even give you a comparison of why barbs just suck right now.

Assume these classes have +1 AC deflection, natural, and a +1 shield, with the best armor available to them, and all have weapon focus feats.

BARBARIAN (10)
HP(max)-140
Max AC(unbuffed)-23 (24 if you have a +1 breastplate ((I know of two in the module, and they are ridiculous to get))
Max AC(buffed, with haste) 25(barkskin)/28(barkskin+shield)/32(barskin/haste/shield)
Max AB(unbuffed) 16/11
Max AB (buffed, no divine potions) 19/14
Max AB (buffed, with divine potions) 22/17
Max AB (buffed, with divine potions + rage, base perk) 25/20 (ac drops to 30 when raging)

Wow, that seems okay! Let's look at a fighter.
MaxHP 120
Max AC(unbuffed)-24, 25 if you have tumble(T) (not so hard to do), 26 with self taught(ST) perk, 27 (vs slashing) with duelist(D) perk
Max AC(buffed, with haste) 26/27(T)/28(ST)/29(D) barkskin, 29/30(T)/31(ST)/32(D) barkskin+shield,33/34(T)/35(ST)/36(Duelist)
Max AB(unbuffed) 16/11, 17/12(ST)
Max AB (buffed, no divine potions) 19/14, 20/15(ST)
Max AB (buffed, with divine potions) 22/17, 23/18(ST)
Max AB (buffed, with divine potions + duelist perk) 24/19

So I have four more ac fully buffed, AND I have expertise for another +5 AC at the cost of 5 AB. Considering that puts me at 40 AC and 19/14 AB fully buffed, that's really damn good!

Oh, and while we're at it, here's a comparison of their saves. We'll assume 18/14/14/10/10/12 for the barb, 14/18/14/10/13/9 for the fighter.

BARB

FORT 7+2(con)= 9
REFLEX 3+2(dex)= 5
WILL 3+0(wis)=3

That's pretty atrocious. Here's a normal ON AVERAGE fighter's saves. We'll assume this is a duelist, for sake of argument.

FIGHTER

FORT 7+2(con)+1(luck of heroes)+1(sturdy soul)=11
REFLEX 3+4(dex)+1(luck of heroes)=8
WILL 3+1(luck of heroes)+1(sturdy soul)+2 (iron will)=7

Wow! And I'm not even going to get into spellcraft cross classing, because I doubt the barbarian has the skill points to put into spellcraft and the fighter does!


So, let's go back up and look at the barb. He's got a lot of AB! That's crazy! 25/20 ab is really fierce. But look at the duelist fighter! He's got 40 ac! That means the barbarian will only him in one in every four strikes.Meanwhile, the duelist fighter holds a strong +19/+14 ab with expertise on, and with his perk up too! The barbarian has 30 AC. That means about 45% of his strikes will hit!!

But that's at their best! Their very best. Look at the numbers without haste on- the barbarian's ac drops to 26 (because he's raging), the duelist drops to 36. So the barb gets about a 20% chance increase to his 1/4th chance to hit, bumping him up to about 1/3rd. Meanwhile, the duelist bumps up to about 65% chance to hit! So the barbarian will be hit roughly 1 attack every round. A turn later, and that's on average about 14 attacks. He only gets 7-8 attacks off on the duelist. And let's not even get into displacement potions and the barbarian's DI or crits- it's completely negligible against the duelists' ferocity. But basically, the duelist is getting twice as many attacks off on the barbarian, has about twice as much saves as the barbarian, and can do everything a barbarian does, but better.

At the end of the day, I just have to ask....

What in the hell does a barbarian have going for them? HP sponges? They just soak up all your healing, and make you wish you had a fighter instead, with their glorious AC. AB? A duelist, or really, just about any fighter, can have just about as much AB a barbarian does, with no penalty to their AC like a barbarian suffers. Saves? What saves? They don't have the feats to spare like a fighter does. In every situation of fighter vs barb, I would pray I would have a fighter over a barb.

And don't get me started on a rogue vs barb, or bard vs barb. They both shit on him, brutally. A rogue can just color spray him, or tangle as needed. A bard can do the same, and endlessly dispel him. You know there is something wrong when I can frontline better as a thug rogue than I can frontline on a barb. That makes zero sense to me- why is a rogue better than being in the front and soaking up damage than the barbarian?

And for the love of god, don't use this argument to justify more nerfs on rogues/fighters/bards That is not the problem. You do not create balance by nerfing everything to the ground. You create balance by buffing things that need fixing. Barbarians need fixes. They can't suddenly become playable because you decided to take away the fighter's ability to cross class into spellcraft, or by taking away the rogue's flat DR reduction. They just can't. That's not how this game works. You need to add benefits to the way Barbarians work. You need to give them love and nourishment, because at the rate they're going, they'll be extinct in the next few game play balances.

At the end of this rant, I'd offer a suggestion or two.

1) For the love of god, and all that is holy, give them +1 breastplate in the module already. Why is it I can't go into orogs, and find a +1 breastplate for my poor barbarian, who's ac is already abysmal? Or seers? Rotlands? Beholders? These quests all have crazy amazing loot, and yet, there's not a single piece of good gear for barbarians in the module, be it from upper end quest, or lower level content.


2)Give them totemic stances, which give massive boons for a whole rest. It works like the monk's stances, except these one's don't require you to app, and they last much longer. Make them situational, make them offer advantages and disadvantages. Maybe one gives you max rage benefits? Maybe one gives you flat DR, at the cost of will? Maybe one gives you massive bonuses to saves, at the cost of 10% of your DI? Something like this that'll make them unique, stand out, and finally be able to complete with his fighter counterpart.


All I'm asking for is some love for a class that used to be really good, and now it's regarded as one of the worst classes of EFU. I don't get why they had to be changed in the first place, and I would gladly appreciate a massive change in direction of them to keep them in the game.

If you can't do something to give them balances, then just remove them from the game, because there's literally no point to play a barbarian at the current mess they are in.


 

[Vlaid]

I agree with the general theme of this thread that barbarians have still been over nerfed a bit.

There are some general world balance problems contributing to that though. Gold is much higher than it has ever been so wands are pretty much supreme. Non-wand classes don't get near unlimited access to dispels in pvps to strip opponents so they almost always end up weaker.

Maybe just stop keeping disruptors so rare, maybe even add some NPCs who sell them for reasonable prices around 200-300 gold or so.  This would level the playing field some at the least.

[Kinslayer988]

Restore them back to their original DI and movespeed. If you want them to be damage sponges add an ability that aids them in doing so. Perhaps an ability that allows them to take damage  then use that to deal more damage to their enemies.


Perhaps apply effects similar to the pit-fighter feat to barbarians all the time. Rewarding barbarians that take damage with more damage.

[zDark Shadowz]

Best barbarian I played really early on was one that got roped into the Watchers by Odelstad and was one with a very small sprinkle of fighter levels (stopped at 2) until he was forced to relevel cause the combination wasn't allowed (didn't know that at the time)

That being said you could probably make the barbarian you want to make with equivalent saving throws/feats with the divine champ prestige wundy. Charisma adds to duration of divine wrath so that's a plus to use alongside rage. #tempus4lyf

[sharkinajar]

Did someone say barb buffs?!?! All my yes.

[wundyweiss]

Best barbarian I played really early on was one that got roped into the Watchers by Odelstad and was one with a very small sprinkle of fighter levels (stopped at 2) until he was forced to relevel cause the combination wasn't allowed (didn't know that at the time)

That being said you could probably make the barbarian you want to make with equivalent saving throws/feats with the divine champ prestige wundy. Charisma adds to duration of divine wrath so that's a plus to use alongside rage. #tempus4lyf

I'm not talking about multiclassing a barb. Hell, I can think of at least three different ways off the top my head to make a barb a hundred times better by multiclassing alone. I am talking about a pure barb's ability to stand out and be something unique. The barbarian perks aren't enough- in fact, all of the barb perks generally make you weaker than your normal barbarian perk. There's basically no reason to be a pure barbarian now, why not make them far more comparable to fighters / bards / rogues / rangers? Hell, pure rangers are in a far better spot in barbarians too!

Give them back their 20% movespeed, let them have the ability to wear full plate with no penalty. Give them something to live for, because as they currently stand they have basically nothing going for them that the other classes can't do much better.

[VanillaPudding]

Your comparisons are flawed because you've chosen to add in feats and such. That doesn't mean you are wrong however, but the most simple way to break it down is by what I would call "required" stats. Barbarians, Rangers, and Bards all suffer in this area, though Bards have not been nerfed like the other two (from their EFU baseline) and do quite well.

In an ideal world, Barbarians and rangers alike would get their movement speed back and Barbarians would have their DI regardless of rage. The flavor rages are really cool, but too much of the barbarian has been put into these "perks" without much of a payout for using them, at least as intended.




 

[Cruzel]

I really like the idea of totemic stances.  Movespeed is amazing, but Talir has brought it up in IRC and I tend to agree. Movespeed is pretty strong, and super easy to lame.  DI is great because  like wundy pointed out: a barbarian is being hit MUCH more often than the other classes that can build for AC.

​But I think the question needs to be asked (again, with emphasis since wundy included it in his OP), since it is the absolute key in making any suggestions that are constructive and have a chance of being implemented:

​What role does the EFUDM team want barbarians to play?[/u]

One of the biggest breakdowns in balance/design communication is the expectations/thoughts of the user on how something is to be used vs the idea as the designer intended it to be.  Without this answer, all we're going to get is both side being frustrated that  the other "doesn't get it"

 

[Pentaxius]

Interesting topic. I agree with wundy`s analysis mostly...even if the examples don't make for the most relevant comparison.

It was a very good change to make the CHA bonus scale to max at 16. Good step.

Removing penalties for heavy armor is a bad idea (duh...) except as part of a perk package. Maybe.

I personally love the more involved solution but I dont like the blanket "totemic" term. I think trances is more appropriate and generalizable to the broad range of barbarian concepts.

You would want that mechanic to be distinct from monk stances, etc. Needs to be unique and cool. Needs to evoke the primal, raw, emotional nature of the barbarian.

Perhaps 5 minute timers, 2.5 minute duration upsides followed by 2.5 duration of downsides. A strategic thing to use in term of gameplay. Fun and engaging for players.

For example, a simple Trance would be "endure pain" +10% DI for durarion +2 fort, -10% DI after -2 fort backlash.

im happy to fleshout some more involved and thematic examples if there is demand. The advantage of such a perk also resides in the fact that DMs have more control over how they enter the gameworld, and players get something to discover and get excited about.

[Vlaid]

Right so as this has kinda turned into a brainstorm thread, I'll toss this out there.

What if all the barbarian perks did absolutely nothing to your rage and barbarians instead could learn different types of rages like stances? Each rest you'd select which rage you want to use for the day, with the potential of maybe some small passive effects to go along with it while not raging, indicating a battle style or something. Your higher charisma would increase the passive effect and the activated effect of the equipped rage.

So for example, you could have like IRON RAGE, which would disable your rage entirely but offer you additional DI and con, or INFERNO RAGE, which gives you some fire DI passively and some kind of fire themed rage. Just examples.

Maybe when you change your selected rage you lose the ability to use it, so it's not like a battle style so much as changing who you are and how you fight, makes them different from bard songs and monk stances. You don't switch them to a situation, you use the one that suits you and stick to it.

[Talir]

As this has moved away from being a rant and instead gotten constructive, I'll also give some input:

Add more barbarian loot to the module.

-- Absolutely can agree with that and may be the easiest way to give something extra to barbarians. If you want to go further with it you could have items affecting rages such as increasing duration or adding something special at activation (temporary HP, fear, bolstering allies, increased anything).

Totemic stances, trances or similar

-- Could be an idea but someone will have to flesh it all out and make ten or more suggestions that are balanced. Could also be something you discover in-game like monk stances.

More dispel items/svirfneblin disruptors

-- I do not think this being a regular commodity would be a good thing.

Effects happen on being damaged

-- There is really no easy way to determine when a player takes damage script-wise I think.

Restoring back to normal Damage Immunity

-- With the exception of the perks giving 5% less immunity at maximum, but 5% immunity from level 1, I don't know what this means. I do not think we changed standard immunity at all.

Give back +10% movement speed at level 8

-- We've gotten very firm on not having too much movement speed boost. That is not happening.

Barbarian perks do not make the barbarian stronger

-- This is true. When implementing them they were made to be an alternative to the very strong barbarian class(!). Trading some strength for the alternatives the perks brought. They have never been meant as a buff to the barbarian class.

Heavy armor without drawbacks

-- This is a plain no.

Perk allowing heavy armor without drawbacks

-- This used to be Punisher. Was shot down pretty fast after implementation so it is not going to happen.

Vlaid's rage suggestion

-- It's a interesting idea. It will change how things are now and again, you'd need to make a suggestion for what everything should do. Would be something akin to finding the perk in-game and then choosing that perk with the benefits at will before resting.

----------------------

Increasing rage duration

-- This is another suggestion that has occasionally cropped up. Would need further discussion but it could be a thing.

Remove base charisma affecting rage

-- Or the Eagle's Splendor solution. This is not something I would ever want myself brought back, but others on the team may be of a different opinion.

Changing how rage works

-- Not only changing the stat boosts or affects, perhaps rage should reapply itself without recast if you are still in combat? Maybe killing/defeating a foe makes one enter rage? Or other alternatives as has been presented.

[Talir]

By the way guys, how the thread turned out is more like how a suggestion thread should be. Work with each other to figure out improvements. Keep the tone polite.

[el groso]

... Perhaps 5 minute timers, 2.5 minute duration upsides followed by 2.5 duration of downsides. A strategic thing to use in term of gameplay. Fun and engaging for players.

For example, a simple Trance would be "endure pain" +10% DI for duration +2 fort, -10% DI after -2 fort backlash...

I really liked this, it would make playing barbarians very exciting, rage with timer and downside after the frenzy. The backlash system probably could be borrowed from the drugs system. (or perhaps custom barbarian drugs could use to enhance the rage, much like viking berserkers allegedly used mushrooms for such).

... What if all the barbarian perks did absolutely nothing to your rage and barbarians instead could learn different types of rages like stances? Each rest you'd select which rage you want to use for the day, with the potential of maybe some small passive effects to go along with it while not raging, indicating a battle style or something. Your higher charisma would increase the passive effect and the activated effect of the equipped rage.

So for example, you could have like IRON RAGE, which would disable your rage entirely but offer you additional DI and con, or INFERNO RAGE, which gives you some fire DI passively and some kind of fire themed rage. Just examples.

Maybe when you change your selected rage you lose the ability to use it, so it's not like a battle style so much as changing who you are and how you fight, makes them different from bard songs and monk stances. You don't switch them to a situation, you use the one that suits you and stick to it....

The two above ideas might work combined, the activated effect of the rage having a timer, also, having these 'trances' or 'rages' changed/acquired through special things/encounters found, mostly related to nature and savagery (ritual with druids could unlock some rage).

I would also want to see a second kind of rage, one that has a chance of triggering every time you take a hit or spent too long fighting without raging, aside from the inducible rage.

Another aspect of Barbarians that I always loved was the potential hatred for magic, 'tricks', etc, so I'd love to see the barbarians own version of the Ascetic/RSD, maybe something even more radical as in can't even wear magical items, and the need to destroy magical items to keep his strength (as in the addiction system). An alternative D&D class called "Foresaker" has a similar idea, here's the link

[Random_White_Guy]

To me when I think of a Barbarian I think of a vandal, a madman, a lone figure fending off a horde of foes in an insane but short term fury and giant weapons or blitzing with a rusty axe and a barrel lid shield. A few short Ideas:

Give Barbarians the ability to use AOE abilities.

Sure, Bard has the swordplay and buffs and disabiling songs and dispels. And people keep arguing that Fighter can go toe to toe with anything thanks to duelist. Barbarian rages and blitzes into a mob, hacks and slashes and brutalizes and then through some totemic juju a volcano erupts and fire decimates the foes he's been hacking and slashing at. Slamming his giant axe into the dirt with raw primal force a small scale earthquake shakes and shatters the foes in the immediate area.

If we're gonna be deconstructing barbarians let's make them sort of the Divine-Primal hybrid warrior like how Bard is a hybrid of Arcane Buff Magic and Combat. Like how Paladin is a mix of Cleric and Fighter with anti-undead leaning, let's make them a mix of Druid and Fighter with AoE.

STOMP and cave rocks fall.
SLAM and fire gushes out from the walls.
HAMMER and water shoots up from underground source.

...Plus someone shooting lightning by static slamming something would just be cool I think. Evocaiton is fun and not enough stuff does that haha.

Give Barbarians the ability to Dual Wield without size limits

Not sure if it's even possible with our NWN juju but I always felt a small pang of agony to see Gaesirc the Unyielding wielding two Battle-Axes seeing something I know PCs have tried in the past but were unable to successfully pull off. A monkey-grip style thing allowing larger weapons to be wielded by the larger more primal madmen would be really cool I think. Everyone else is wielding rapiers and this dude comes through with two GIANT WARHAMMERS.

Give every barbarian regardless of perk, native 5/2 DR while in Rage mode

The loinclothe barbarian is a classic EFU trope with PCs usually getting 1/5 DR loincloth and turning from someone who gets their ass kicked a lot to a burly rumbler but then there's also folks who prefer to go the medium-armor rocking viking style.

Adding the ability for Barbarians to use their large HP pools + the ability to shrug off DR + the ability to use their DI would make them far more tank style but in a different method than Fighters. 1/5 DR is super common but it's also overcomable by anyone and everyone. I think it'd add some legimitmacy to the class if they received 5/2. That still gives Lycans the edge of having 10/1 5/2 and shirking off huge heaps of damage but this shows that Barbarians are MONSTROUS in their ability to shrug off damage and take on entire foes as madmen wearing scraps of armor or loinclothes.

That means when you hear a barbarian rage roar there's some terror that come into people's minds. That someone is going to see a rare feat of physical fury and rampage, and that this son of a bitch is gonna be tough to take down for the short-term burst.

Make them the other class to use Drugs besides RSD

Berserk and other tales of lore had Barbarian-types using all kinds of frenzy inducing drugs for an "Edge". When Thanatol was a thing it was always the barbarian types who flocked to it but I think if we take the existing drug system and add a Barbarian Caveat it could boost things as an additional sort of buff. Red Smile, Junksnuff, Bloodhaze, Substabnce etc. Give all of these things exponentially stronger powers in the hands of a barbarian class and maybe lessen the addiction rate.

[wundyweiss]

As this has moved away from being a rant and instead gotten constructive, I'll also give some input:

More dispel items/svirfneblin disruptors

-- I do not think this being a regular commodity would be a good thing.

Give back +10% movement speed at level 8

-- We've gotten very firm on not having too much movement speed boost. That is not happening.

Heavy armor without drawbacks

-- This is a plain no.

These three I'll contest you on. Dispel items for pure barbarians and fighters are essentially necessary. If they are fighting a rogue or bard with a dispel wand, they are basically going to lose - not a single fighter or barbarian I know can keep up with wasting their time on refreshing potions and getting attacked by a rogue / bard at the same time. They just lose. Any time you watch a rogue fight a fighter or barb, they basically have it in the bag, unless the fighter gets extremely lucky and hardly gets dispelled. Dispel items for THESE TWO CLASSES ONLY would help immensely.

We are in a meta that relies on gold for supplies, which means wands are far more accessible to the playerbase. If wands are more accessible, any arcane / divine based class will hold an advantage over those classes that can't (which are barbarians, monks, and fighters). Adding more of dispel throwables to the module will help them last a better chance. Just make it OUB Fighter/Barb/Monks.

+10% Movespeed isn't anything. It doesn't stack with haste or retreats, it gives you a reason to get 8 barbarian. There are already multiple ways to get 20% movespeed, like dipping into ranger levels, or if you wanted, go for four rogue levels and get 5% movespeed added to your base ten. A pure monk can get 30% movespeed, and that STACKS with hastes and retreats. Who cares about 20% movespeed for a pure barbarian? They don't have much else going for them to stay pure.

Full plate armor with no drawbacks. This is what I get for wearing full plate over +1 breastplate (which there are two in the module, and extremely hard to get) AND investing my skill points into cross classing into tumble- Nothing. I get no bonus AC. I get no bonus effects. I just get more armor check penalties, and I have to invest a feat to just get the same AC as my fighter counterpart, instead of investing into tumble and hoping to god I get a +1 breastplate. I don't know why this is a problem. There is literally no difference for wearing a fullplate or doing the breastplate +1 and tumble combo. MAYBE the difference is I use up a feat instead of skills? I don't know why this is a problem? Like, if I wanted to invest into a full plate I should be able to be a full plate barbarian... I guess the only argument here is if you start getting into multiclassing shennanigans, but if that's the case, why not just do it like the bard perk? If you multiclass, you lose your barbarian benefits.