Improving Player Retention

[Deepdrake]

For example: Doing a basic rat quest with just me and a new player. I know the quest OOCly, and I know the boss is a wererat, for which we'll need magic weapon to hurt and defeat it feasibly. As we are approaching this boss, my character might say something like "Something unnatural is causing all these rats to appear. We might need to enchant our weapons to face this threat, so keep that spell/scroll/rod of magic weapon at the ready" (or more likely, "we must be close to the main threat, let's enchant our weapons now, just in case").

I must disagree with this strongly. I remember when I was a new player on an entirely different server and a very talented roleplayer took me under their wing and chided me for meta gaming traps in a low level quest. This sort of reinforcement of good play, at a low level when the consequences were small, helped keep me honest later on.

The best thing a veteran player can do is take a new player under their wing, speak to them OOCly about the server etc, and teach them proper play from the very start.

[gauntlet]

I must disagree with this strongly. I remember when I was a new player on an entirely different server and a very talented roleplayer took me under their wing and chided me for meta gaming traps in a low level quest. This sort of reinforcement of good play, at a low level when the consequences were small, helped keep me honest later on.

The best thing a veteran player can do is take a new player under their wing, speak to them OOCly about the server etc, and teach them proper play from the very start.

Traps, to me, can be as deadly as death saves.

I don't want to bring a new player in, and die to a trap he/she didn't see, and/or he/she couldn't do anything about it. Nothing is more frustrating than dying from something you couldn't even prevent, simply due to a (very likely) first-character bad build.

Once you get into the groove of the server, it doesn't matter. But based on your example, you had at least done that quest once before (in order to be able to metagame the traps), so its past the critical stage where you're doing player retention.

I chided too if on multiple runs of a quest, a player clearly meta games a trap location ("There is a trap here. You and I cannot see it, but I know it. Its of the electrical type, and blah, blah"). That's why I use vague things like "I feel..." or "There might be....". It might seem all the same, and I'm partly teaching a bad example, but I try to cover it up under the "for the sake of new players" mantra.

Once I know a player is not new (and actually logged in a 2nd time on the server after their first day), I'm less worried, and don't take these drastic measures any more.

But I'm not asking that anyone do what I was doing. Just saying what I tried to do, and for which I was (to my knowledge) somewhat successful.

In my opinion, traps in low-level quests should be as frequent as death saves. For almost all classes, its automatic damage no matter how good your low-level build. Automatic damage is bad at low HP levels, where you have little HP to spare. To make things worse, new players are the most likely to not be in search mode, specially once battle/dungeon begins.

If I know the new player is playing a typical rogue, I keep my mouth shut, and let them find the traps, of course. Low level quests, from my experience, have reasonable search DCs for traps to the point where a character invested in Search will have zero issues. But that usually only happens for new players when they play a rogue.

/rant

[Howlando]

gauntlet I think your first post and intentions are very good. In this particular case I do not think traps represent such a big threat to new characters as you may believe. I am not aware of any deadly traps on any lowbie quest, and the incidence of actual trap deaths on any quest are extremely low. In this case it is indeed best to 'teach' new players not to metagame traps, as the worst that is likely to happen is a scorched foot and the use of a potion or two.

Also note that in many of the EFU:R quests where traps are used their placement is randomized.

[WellRespectedMan]

Things like dying to traps can, for even the most puny of PCs, generally be avoided by making sure you're at full health whenever you're stepping on uncertain ground; some of them can do a fair portion of a wizard's health, but i've never hit a trap on a low level quest that could kill me outright (and i've stood on a lot)

[The Old Hack]

I have only ever seen traps kill outright in two kinds of situations: one, as above, with someone already badly hurt running into one, or two, on quests, where some kind of plot important object or door is trapped and someone insists on barging up and triggering it when it is clearly so dangerous that it is all but covered with Biohazard stickers.

Traps can kill indirectly, by paralysing you where monsters can get at you or by poisoning you and the stat loss causing loss of movement, AC or the like, but in these situations you and your friends at least usually have some response time in which to undo the damage or save your hide.

Traps are EfU's way of telling you to slow down and be patient. Which is actually not bad advice in most situations.

[EmeraldFalcon]

It's been exactly a week, and I'm done.

Since you asked, I'll tell you whyâ€"but I am a wordy individual on the best of days, so it'll be long.  I'll start by telling you a little bit about myself.

I've been role playing on NWN for over ten years: I started on Aertheca, then found my home on Dragoncoast for three server iterations.  I came to EFU:R on the recommendation of some of my DC friends, but I do want to establish clearly that I had almost no IC contact with them (maybe we exchanged nods once).  I wanted to judge EFU:R on its own merits.

When it comes to RP, what matters the most to me is the lore and the characters.  Because of that, I have no problem reading massive amounts of information before even rolling my character.  I am, frankly, not interested in joining a server that DOESN'T require me to read server lore before I start.  So I was initially very pleased.

I want to address the concerns of others in this thread as far as elitismâ€"I completely disagree.  I had no problems finding interactions with other characters, even though my character (as a druid of Talona) was not the sort of person most characters would want to interact with.  I very much enjoyed the interactions with Granny and TheIceQueen's characters, in particular.

Despite all the information that I read, though, and all the searching I did on the forums, there were many things that I could not find, or had far too much trouble locating:

• Instructions on how to use the ingame server-specific crafting systems, such as cooking, herbalism, fishing, etc.  I realize that you want the recipes to be discovered ingame, but there was literally no information on how to even start.  I had to ask a DM for help to understand how to fish.


• How to use the EFU skill system.  The command “/c efuss help”, which is what is recommended on the board, doesn't work.  It claims the syntax is invalid.


• How the poison/addicting substances system works mechanically.  I took a drink of wine, and my character rolled a poison check.  I had no clue if that was related to the wine, or if the person who gave it to me was trying to poison me.


• What the laws of the city are.  In the House of Governance, there is a short summary, but it says one of the laws is to follow the Directives, and the Directives are scattered all over the place.  It's like a game of hidden object to find laws your character is expected to obey.


• What the level cap is.  If it is (as I heard though my friends, and not through any of the posted server information at all) level 10, then that is something everyone rolling a character should know.  Multiclassing becomes much less feasible, for one thing, and some class abilities are never attainable.


• And most importantlyâ€"I found NO information in the extensive amount I read that tells you that dying will de-level you if your XP in the current level is low enough.

That last point, for me, was the straw that broke the camel's back.  It's one thing to say that you want death to be harsh on your server, it's a whole new level (if you'll pardon the pun) to change the way it works from the main game without making that information available for anyone to know before it happens.  I work a very demanding job, and the weekends and about three hours on weeknights are all the time I get to myself (not just the time I get to play NWN, but all the time I get to myself AT ALL) and I've spent most of today trying to get to level 5, with the assumption that I would finally have wildshape and I could focus on exploration and meeting people outside the city without having to worry too muchâ€"I could deal with not advancing in level for a long time, which was what I planned to do.  But to lose what amounted to basically all of today's free time?  No, that's not acceptable.

I want you to understand the argument I'm making here.  I wasn't leveling for the sake of leveling.  I was leveling because I felt I needed to get that level in order to properly play my character.  I'm a DRUID.  I needed level 5 in order to be able to travel outside the city.  Living in the city and hunting rock worms every day doesn't fit with my character.  I feel like I'm being limited mechanically from effective RP.

I feel like I have a pretty good idea of what your response to this is: it's the way the server was designed, and it's supposed to make death meaningful.  I shouldn't feel any kind of security in leaving the city, ever.  And I hear what you're saying.

But you're trying to be too many things as a server.  You're trying to maintain a high level of RP, but you don't want people to act rudely to new players.  You're trying to encourage people not to powergame, but you've made a set of rules so harsh that that feels like the only option.  You cannot be everything to everyone.

While trying to be somewhat modest, I will say that I think I am a very good roleplayer, and I liked the setting and lore the server had to offer.  I think I could have contributed to it significantly, and I was looking forward to playing out many of the interesting psychological problems my character was faced with, such as how to balance druid neutrality in preserving the balance of nature that's been mostly destroyed, while opposing the use of the Machine.  The thing is, not everyone has the same strengths when it comes to RP, and while mine lie in character development and dialogue, I'll readily admit that I am not good at leveling, and not good at staying alive, even on an easier server.  I have never, ever, reached the level cap on any server I played on.

When Howland talks in his second post about the “right” kind of new players...maybe I'm just not the “right” kind.  I would call myself creative, mature, and fun.  I think I would add to the world.  I'm just bad at the game itself.  Maybe the truth is just that EFU's elitism extends to how well its players can play NWN.

[Ziya]

I could make a probably weak attempt at trying to answer some of your concerns, being a new player myself.

• Instructions on how to use the ingame server-specific crafting systems, such as cooking, herbalism, fishing, etc.  I realize that you want the recipes to be discovered ingame, but there was literally no information on how to even start.  I had to ask a DM for help to understand how to fish.

When I first begun, I had absolutely no clue how to do this either. I learned it by asking another character IC-ly, who took time to go through how herbalism and alchemy works with my character. At the moment, my character, Narvis Naerfaine, has been carrying on this baton and had already taught more than half-a-dozen player characters how herbalism and alchemy works IC-ly. If you'd follow Matteo example here to publicly ask for aid regarding it, my character would generally be pleased to reply here to offer aid.

• How to use the EFU skill system.  The command “/c efuss help”, which is what is recommended on the board, doesn't work.  It claims the syntax is invalid.

It is /c efuss --help. It confused me greatly for a minute at first, too, until I tried multiple variations and figured it out.

• What the laws of the city are.  In the House of Governance, there is a short summary, but it says one of the laws is to follow the Directives, and the Directives are scattered all over the place.  It's like a game of hidden object to find laws your character is expected to obey.

That was a problem I noticed IC-ly early on in the server, and my character took steps to remedy it IC-ly. He has made a public poster available to all citizens which collected all the Order Directives he know. The problem is IC-ly addressed here, and can be assumed by your character to be known IC knowledge.

• What the level cap is.  If it is (as I heard though my friends, and not through any of the posted server information at all) level 10, then that is something everyone rolling a character should know.  Multiclassing becomes much less feasible, for one thing, and some class abilities are never attainable.

It should be here.

• And most importantlyâ€"I found NO information in the extensive amount I read that tells you that dying will de-level you if your XP in the current level is low enough.

It is here, under Death.

[Frenzied]

Zilya poked off on some of the mechanical things. I'll throw my own opinions into it to try to soothe any wounds in as meek a fashion as I can.

-A wilderness character is probably one of the worst possible things to start as as a new player to the server, and because of how dangerous the wilderness has been it usually does require a mechanical proficiency. Even with level five you would have trouble surviving

-Grinding worms is probably one of the worst ways to get experience unless you plan to do it for hours, and it is definitely something that no sane person should enjoy doing. The solo quests also give very small amounts. The larger experience hauls are gotten by performing the various static quests around the server.

-In regard to mechanical aptitude- It is definitely needed. Besides #efu on IRC being a madhouse, it is also a good place to ask mechanics questions. There is a -big- difference between character building within the mechanics and power gaming. Playing the game and understanding the mechanics are definitely something that has to be learned, and (at least in my opinion) approaching EFU with a roguelike mentality helps out. Powergamed builds generally don't do too well because of how badly their glaring flaws get exploited; generally the most effective characters are ones who are able to cover all of their bases without costing themselves too much in one or another.

-Being rude ICly is much different from being rude OOCly. You could have someone's PC trash talking yours in the square while at the same time asking them stuff through tells to try to help you out in understanding something on the server. Most of the community tries to encourage new players to do new and exciting things.

If you want me to try to convince you to stay- You've plainly said that you aren't good at levelling, staying alive, or becoming the incredible hulk. If you aren't good at any of this, and you don't enjoy doing these things, then make a social character that hangs around the city proper. Make a total greenhorn newbie city slicker that doesn't understand a single thing about adventuring ICly because you OOCly don't have a great grasp on mechanics. That'll do two things for you-

First, you can actively learn stuff OOCly and ICly. Learn from the mistakes you make. Maybe running down the hallway first when you have no trap finding wasn't a good idea? Maybe running onto the bridge covered in kobold crossbowyers was a bad idea? Maybe punching GLARGFORUBOUX OF THE FIFTH LAYER in the face while naked and without magic was a bad plan? As the character makes these mistakes he can learn from them, just like you are!

Second, if you decide to hang up your pair of adventuring boots and never leave the sanctity of the bar again except to get more money to booze around with, you now have an IC excuse to call adventurers idiots and play the political side of things. There is literally a political group IG dedicated to keeping people from leaving the shield. You can feasibly play a watcher or a black guild member who tries to keep people from going outside, and still hit all the intrigue that an adventurer would be having (or more.)

[Fiaryn]

I'm pretty sympathetic to Emerald Falcon on the point of exp loss on death, as it's been the only thing to really make me reconsider this server as a new player. I'm not the guy who first started playing Persistent Worlds 9~ years ago. Free time is finite, EFU competes with other time sinks and more importantly responsibilities. Even someone who really enjoys the setting, lore, and is a competent roleplayer is going to ask themselves after losing several days of progress "What is the opportunity cost here? What else could I be doing that has a better fun/time ratio? Is this really worth the trouble?". That's a completely rational calculus to make that betrays no lack of maturity. Quite the opposite.

Ironically for all the talk of avoiding attracting people who treat things like an MMORPG, a hardcore raider's schedule and/or mentality is more likely to have the inclination to put up with that stuff.

So basically what I think I'm saying is that the number one obstacle to new player retention is probably real world time constraints and I doubt there's much to be done for it. There's a lot of electronic entertainment out there, the calculus of opportunity costs is a harsh mistress.

[granny]

Ouais...

... newbie in the server and druid is something quite hardcore.

Lucky you that you met the most awesome granny around. Me. <3

Still, I wish the wilderness hub had some safer start like the Lower and Upper have. With all the previous knowledge I already have (dirty metagamer) it's hard enough to survive the wilds, I wonder how troublesome it can get for someone with little knowledge of the server. Do not worry. EVERYONE here suffer with the death penalties. Not only the newbies. It is something that haunts every single PC with few exceptions (you cheaters).

Keep on searching the wildling PCs. You arrived in the most perfect time. Wildlings are all sprouting like weed in the garden. Use the stuff I had shown you. Seek for the people of the wilds. Stay quiet and hidden. Prefer to be in Lower Sanctuary than to be in Upper and slowly walk away from there to the wilds. From there, you'll be better.

Now, if you decide to stay in Upper, the Worm Pits are awesome for a Talonite (not so much for a druid, but still...). I rolled a PC there some time ago and it was nice. Befriend the worms, dance among them, help them grow in number and get stronger poison... help people to get infected, because that place oddly doesn't spread any disease... do all that needed jazz.

Yeah... I am crying here that I ain't rolling that Talontar Hag to guide the Young Venom around the marvelous world of EFU: Talona Edition. I hope you find your way and have tons of fun. Everyone knows that there is no better Goddess than Talona

[NecronomiconV]

As a guy who's died a LOT I can say this, its actually a boon. Lots of easy gold and supply quests are lower level! AND if your concept requires levels to be fun your going to be heartbroken at times, believe it or not the death penalty used to be even more hardcore and we are even blessed with exploration xp not being affected by death.. your a druid? Explore! Now I know it doesn't compare to questing or cold blooded grinding but you can discover a lot of cool server things through it and still get stronger. I know its dangerous but caution of course is a must. Druids also get the patrol quests which if you didn't know there is a nice amount of them about if you search. Levels are a nice thing but I find there's less to do at higher level. Invest in some more rp, and value supplies over levels. I've played a few nature pcs and even though I didn't get many levels I had a blast. I understand the hurt for the wildshape but efu has many custom things to it to easily fill the druidic coolness. I hope you stay, its a great server and if you really need a break take a week off and think about it. ALSO pure rollplay, it sounds like your a very skilled rollplayer and DMs will reward that, and sometimes with permanant xp. I'm sorry you seem to not have found all the information you needed.

[Pigadig]

There really should be something at character creation that says:

"EFU is not very easy for those who wish to be based outside of the main city. Druids and other "exile" focused PCs are not adviseable for your first PC unless you are very confident in your NWN skills."

EFU is a hard server. Sanctuary based PCs have the easiest time of it. Lower the second easiest. Followed by wilderness PCs. Hardest time is of course villain PCs based out of the shittiest places.

It doesn't mean you can't manage to be a Lowersmen/Wilderness/Villain on your first PC, just that it requires a significant level of mechanics knowledge and EFU is decidedly different in feel from many other servers.

[Howlando]

Hello EmeraldFalcon,

Maybe the truth is just that EFU's elitism extends to how well its players can play NWN.

Oh I wouldn't deny that at all, EFU is very mechanically challenging as a server and tends to reward those who have been playing here for years and years and years and have finally mastered the game. I don't dispute at all that it is a server where mechanical ability (inventory management, reflexes, calmness under pressure, tactics, etc....) are important factors in a character's success. But they're certainly not the only factors. In the true sense of the word, I do think EFU is an 'elitist' server in that players are encouraged to be elite roleplayers, elite mechanically, elite creatively, etc.

You've pointed out areas for how EFU could improve upon its documentation. I'm particularly astonished that in three years nobody bothered to point out that the "/c efuss help" command listed in the forum is actually "/c efuss --help".... but it's fixed now, so thanks for that. And if you or anyone else have any other ideas for how to improve our documentation for new players, it's a project I'd pursue with some vigor. And I do think our community is fairly helpful to new players with asking questions, and it's always OK to ask questions.

In fairness I don't think the fact that dying can make you lose levels is something that isn't well documented (as well as being a fairly standard feature in most NWN RP worlds that I'm aware of!). Our mechanics change listed fairly prominently that total XP is reduced from death, and there are constant references to this in our various new player guides/etc. scattered about. At any rate although I respect any player's preference to not play in a world where failure can lead to XP reduction, it is an essential and much beloved feature of our world.

Alchemy/Herbalism aren't systems really recommended for new players. I will add a New Player guide in the starting area placeable that describes the basic mechanics, though.

I don't think new players really need to worry too much about Spellguard Directives. The feeling of Upper Sanctuary is frankly rather that of a police state (with players more than welcome to pursue life outside of it!). It's an important theme in EFU that is often explored in various ways, the balance between safety/oppression and freedom/chaotic danger. Most Spellguard directives relate to things like.... WATCH OUT FOR ENEMIES IN OUR MIDST, or are really just information about a specific thing it's next to (i.e. if you go out this gate, be careful!),  etc. Believe me, no one OOC'ly expects you to worry too much about them unless you deliberately roll up a freedom fighter/anarchist that wants to bring down the system.

Others in their responses mention that playing a druid as your first character is possibly an unwise proposition. It is interesting to me that new players often choose to roll up a druid (nevermind that druids are more loners that pursue a life in the far more harsh wilderness outside a town; at any rate it's a problem I'll have to ponder). If you want to continue playing a druid, I think it is pretty much essential to find other wilderness characters/players who can mentor and help you both IC and OOC.

As with any new player, you do have access to special mechanical help from the staff if you want it. All you need to do is ask.

[Howlando]

I have improved upon our documentation relating to EFUSS.

[Siren]

I think everything's documented pretty well, if something's not clear in-game, then there's a lot of knowledge compiled here in the forums. I never had an issue with that, but I kind of had other people's help, so maybe I overlooked the issue...

It seems that EmeraldFalcon's main problem with the server are the death penalties. Honestly, I know how frustrating it can get, specially in the case of "cheap" deaths, with enemies being lured next to area transitions and other misfortunate things... however, I think it's a much needed "evil" to the server.

Deleveling is frequent, if not almost unavoidable. I won't be a hypocrite and say that I never got upset towards a character death and that you learn to live with it; on the countrary, it hurts. When I had a steady PC, close to level 8, then died... I was so disheartened that I started crying. That's rather normal for me, however, I've always been a crybaby, but it's definitly not common for a videogame to upset me like that.

My point with that is to say that I don't think EfU is "for all audiences". It's really not, I think you need certain traits in your personality to appreciate it. While I'm admittedly a whiner and a crybaby who blames everything and everyone except myself, I'm also ridiculously stubborn and a bit of a perfectionist about things I get invested in. This makes me regard the leveling side of EfU as a challenge and when I die I just come back, even more determined to get what I want. If you like challenges, then you will appreciate EfU's difficulty... if you're easily discouraged and unwilling to tolerate bad feelings from a videogame, then I think you'll just find the server frustrating. If, on the other hand, overcoming great challenges makes you feel better about your accomplishments, then you'll like it here.

I don't think EfU rewards those who spend a lot of time in-game, unlike other less hardcore servers. It's very easy to obtain XP, you can easily get level 5 or 6 (if you search for a group) in one sitting. Within an hour of creating a character and strictly playing on your own, you can find yourself nearing level 5. Then you can either find a group to run one quest that'll cover the missing XP or come back the next day to get the level on your own. Of course, as a new player who doesn't know where the quests are located and where to go, obtaining level 5 by yourself can seem like a chore, specially if you've just been hanging around the worm-pits.

I won't give you the "it's just a game" arguement and tell you to get over it. That's the stupidest, most condescending piece of "advice" one can give. This is a hobby, something you've invested time and ability in. If you fail and get punished, you're obviously going to feel let down, unless you totally don't care for the game you're playing... in which case, why would you be playing it?
Being upset when you "fail" is human nature, not "obsession". The fact that it's "just a game" means absolutely nothing once you start to dedicate time and effort to it, so I hope we don't see "illuminated" minds tossing it around here, as I've seen on IRC whenever someone gets upset about dying. I think what EmeraldFalcon and other people in his/her situation need is to be remembered that it's happened to all of us. We've all taken a blow and we all know how much it hurts... it's really natural to get frustrated.

It "kind of" gets better, if that's any encouragement. :p
No, really, if you keep playing, you'll delevel again. Just be prepared for it. It'll hurt as much as it did before, but you'll find it easier to make back what you lost. You learn enemy abilities, you learn where quests are, you'll progressively improve your gear, you'll have better supplies... it just works.
If it's any incentive, I find level 6-7 to be the levels you'll spend the most time in. Not 4-5. Once you're past those levels, you'll likely not drop back to them, so you can take your wild shape for granted?

To finish my long post... I think that the harsh death penalties heavily contribute towards the server atmosphere. They force everyone to RP being afraid of dying; if you want to be heroic, you'll know that the risks you take are real. Being a "hero" is not easy. And by "hero" I don't mean the players sitting on their level 8+ statue-characters inside Sanctuary, I mean those who  actually risk their necks to venture into dangerous places, it's not for the faint of heart! Takes real courage to have courage IG, and that's one thing I like about EfU...

Also, I'm sure that if you stick around, EmeraldFalcon, you'll greatly appreciate the tension that stems from walking around the Underdark alone. Few would probably survive, but I'd advise any new players to do it on their own, at least once... It's like playing a horror game, you'll genuinely feel scared! I know I did it a few times on my first character and always payed for it. =P