Thieve's Cant

[Caddies]

A somewhat low-priority suggestion, but I think it would be awesome if some manner of Thieve's Cant widget was scripted for PCs who use this language IG. As it stands, nobody speaks Thieve's Cant OOCly so its almost impossible for thieves to speak this ICly with any sort of believable fluency.

A widget that when used allows the PC who owns it to speak (type) normally to other PCs who also hold the widget (other credible thieves) without saying anything intelligble to nearby PCs who don't have the widget (who aren't credible thieves) would be awesome.

Picture if you will two thieves discussing how to best rob the merchant stall while casually sorting through his wares and sharing an amiable conversation in front of him!

Something like **Says something in an odd language, which you can't quite pick up on** as the message non-thieves would get when Cant is being spoken would be the way to do it, I think.

Basically, this allows for a very controlled use of a very cool language IG, the critical factor being the handing out of such widgets always up to DM discretion, and thus somewhat rare.

Thoughts?

[MisterPAIN]

Languages are not supported by EFU:A though.

You could just make up your own code between certain fellows.

Also, non-thieves may also be rogues n' lyin' lockpicks as well, particularly anti-thieves that learned the tricks of the trade to counter them!

[I can has fun?]

Languages are not supported by EFU:A though.

I've heard this before, but I forgot the reason why. Too much CPU overhead, I think? If anyone knows, I'd like to be reminded.

[derfo]

I THINK IT WOULD BE COOLER IF YOU DEVISED SOME SORT OF CODE LIKE *FLIPS A GANG SIGN TO FRIEND AS HE STARES AT COLORFUL TUNIC* AND SHIT SO LIKE WHEN YOU DEVISE THAT SHIT PEOPLE CAN SPY ON YOU AND BE LIKE "DAMN, YO"

[Snoteye]

I've heard this before, but I forgot the reason why. Too much CPU overhead, I think? If anyone knows, I'd like to be reminded.

The overhead is actually not that bad, we already scan every single line of chat anyway. There are a number of reasons as to why we have disregarded languages so far, one them being the fact that determining who speaks what is impossible. I agree completely with Caddies in that, from a convenience point of view, this would be very nice, however, I do not think that is argument enough for re-evaluating a decision as old as this one (the complications are the same).

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

I've been on a server where, when you start your character, the higher your intelligence score, the more languages you speak.

Say if you had 14 intelligence, you would know three different languages.

Also you would know your racial language, so a half orc -might- know orc, but the player might or might not choose to use it. An elven might, or not choose to know her own native tongue.


Just a thought.

[Helge]

As it stands, nobody speaks Thieve's Cant OOCly

When I was a teenager I was thinking the thieve's cant is a large part of spoken language.

Thoughts?

You (We) can do like the real criminals do (at least at exUSSR). Older more experienced thieves are the keepers of traditions and from time to time teach younger ones. As time flows more and more words get their equivalent in the cant. Also some words change their meaning over time so only those who are part of the criminal society know them. This modification allows quick discovery and disposing of I-want-to-sound-like-thief and inserted guard agents.

Improper use of the cant can be a valid reason for PvP and FD (as they do in our parts).

[Talir]

It's the same thing as speaking elven. Too often, this will exclude people who would in a reasonable sense know what was spoken and require the players to actually learn all the words to be able to comprehend what is talked about. As a thing to spice up conversation, it's very fine. But it may get too overboard and shove people away who otherwise could have been included.

[petey512]

Best to just make up your own "thieves cant" if you're serious about it.

[I can has fun?]

I've been on a server where, when you start your character, the higher your intelligence score, the more languages you speak.

Say if you had 14 intelligence, you would know three different languages.

Also you would know your racial language, so a half orc -might- know orc, but the player might or might not choose to use it. An elven might, or not choose to know her own native tongue.

I know which server you're talking about, and you only get your racial languages by default. You have to get a DM to set up your bonus languages, and you need to be able to justify them. I can see how that could quickly become a nightmare for the DMs here.

Thieves' Cant is, by the way, not a spoken language as it's been implemented in Neverwinter Nights. It's a collection of hand signals and body language used to convey very brief, inarticulate messages. It is very similar to drow sign language.

[Secutor]

I THINK IT WOULD BE COOLER IF YOU DEVISED SOME SORT OF CODE LIKE *FLIPS A GANG SIGN TO FRIEND AS HE STARES AT COLORFUL TUNIC* AND SHIT SO LIKE WHEN YOU DEVISE THAT SHIT PEOPLE CAN SPY ON YOU AND BE LIKE "DAMN, YO"

[Caddies]

The overhead is actually not that bad, we already scan every single line of chat anyway. There are a number of reasons as to why we have disregarded languages so far, one them being the fact that determining who speaks what is impossible.

I suggest making it an application-only perk, with the parameters for acceptance being:

1) How trustworthy the player is in using this language tastefully, rather than abusing it
2) How authentic and interesting the concept is from a scoundrel/thief/rogue viewpoint
3) The depth of the character's goals, from the same viewpoint

Note that saying your PC has a background as a thief, or anti-thief as some has mentioned, is not nearly enough. Cant is only taught to experienced rogues who have proven themselves to their guild, generally.

[Caddies]

It's the same thing as speaking elven. Too often, this will exclude people who would in a reasonable sense know what was spoken and require the players to actually learn all the words to be able to comprehend what is talked about. As a thing to spice up conversation, it's very fine. But it may get too overboard and shove people away who otherwise could have been included.

I am pretty sure there is a vast difference in the amount of people who would know a specialized dialect such as Thieves Cant and those who would know Elven, a racial language that has existed for tens of thousands of years (arguably as a lingua franca for long stretches of this period) and is also the source of an immense amount of historical and arcane texts that many parties have implicit interest in learning.

The actual number of PCs who would realistically speak Thieves Cant would be incredibly low compared to Elven, doubly so if this perk were made application-only.

Best to just make up your own "thieves cant" if you're serious about it.

I don't have the time or creative energy to come up with a new language for a PC that may or may not die at any moment, then go through the immensely arduous process of teaching other PCs IG how to speak it. Although it sounds nice on paper, this is simply not a believable thing to accomplish.

The overhead is actually not that bad, we already scan every single line of chat anyway. There are a number of reasons as to why we have disregarded languages so far, one them being the fact that determining who speaks what is impossible.

 I suggest making it an application-only perk, with the parameters for acceptance being:
 
 1) How trustworthy the player is in using this language tastefully, rather than abusing it
 2) How authentic and interesting the concept is from a scoundrel/thief/rogue viewpoint
 3) The depth of the character's goals, from the same viewpoint
 
Note that saying your PC has a background as a thief, or anti-thief as some has mentioned, is not nearly enough. Cant is only taught to experienced rogues who have proven themselves to their guild, generally.

So yeah, I really think this might be a sweet addition to the server, culminating in more of a focus on authentic thieves and an underworld atmosphere. But if languages of any sort are still considered as undesirable by the DM team, and/or the scripting work is considered too low-priority, I understand!

[Sandstorm]

I am unsure where you are getting your information on the Thieves Cant. Both in real life, and in many settings, Thieves Cant is a prominant language amongst thieves. In London and Paris, the Thieves Cant was so widespread that beggar, child thieves, and even some of the police force were familiar with it. In FR, Thieves Cant is considered the 'second language' in places such as Marsember, places in Sembia, and in the underworlds along the Sword Coast. Merely popping up and saying "I'm a rogue," sometimes -is- good enough to justify knowing the language.
 
Unless you're talking about making a whole new language type thing for the server, that is rare.

[SkillFocuspwn]

If the only language implemented was Thieves Cant, wouldn't PCs very quickly catch on and start running away every time two people started [Makes indesipherable gesture.] in front of them?