Retcon Upper Checkpoints

[Anonymous Lemur]

I don't really disagree with you but I think it should be said that these gates were a relatively new addition this chapter and for at least two years we had a completely penetrable shield which literally had an escape point at every location. There still weren't very many attacks/assassinations.

If anything that's even more of a reason why the gates are terrible for that sort of thing as they make something that was already a scary prospect to most people even scarier.

[Knight Of Pentacles]

A few assassinations/attacks is a whole lot more than none, which will be the case if notorious criminals/villains can't enter Sanctuary (and criminals in general can't make an escape). Just think, had checkpoints been in place earlier, Edwyn Nibley's raid on the Refinery wouldn't have been impossible. I think ShadowCharlatan's idea is worth implementing. Having animatrons whose only function is to test for thralldom. But even then does trivializing thralldom and the Dread's only means of affecting Sanctuary make for a good story?

[Hallowed Incandescence]

Honestly, given how lax security is at the gates it seems like it would be quite trivial for all but the most notorious of criminals of just put on a disguise and walk right into the city anyways. That means that it isn't actually all that hard to make assassination attempts, which have the benefit of confusion and can even potentially go undetected if done well. Which means that only more open attacks on the city will face the difficulty in escaping, and... isn't that sort of the point? If it is incredibly easy to make strikes on the city it carries less weight when it does happen. The risk of being caught only serves to make larger attacks more legendary in their wake. If you're going to make an open terrorist attack on Sanctuary it's the sort of thing you'd want to have a well-prepared and well-equipped band for.

Really, given that not too long ago a single man managed to break through the Watcher barricade I don't think it is that much of a problem as people seem to believe.

[Blue41]

Speaking as someone who has gate-crashed since checkpoint inception, I can agree that the checkpoints look intimidating, but the reality was that it was fairly easy even for under-supplied Lowersmen PC's to break through the gates. I hope that our break-in was purposefully easy- that Sanctuary's security is stretched too thin and the lack of a concerted defense is the result. I don't think anyone trying to bust in or break out has ever been prevented by NPC's, though that doesn't answer the question of why so few people seem to try.

[Damien]

I'd still suggest adding side alley transitions that can lead to random locations.

[We Are Men]

I'd rather just have a gate that actually swings open and closed when permitting people in to give the potential for thralls or criminals to sneak in.

Also the little area you transition into at first in Sanctuary is tiny and causes many problems with model collision with the NPC/PCs in that area. At the very least that little initial area before you are waved into Sanctuary proper should be enlarged.

[Random_White_Guy]

Speaking as someone who has gate-crashed since checkpoint inception, I can agree that the checkpoints look intimidating, but the reality was that it was fairly easy even for under-supplied Lowersmen PC's to break through the gates. I hope that our break-in was purposefully easy- that Sanctuary's security is stretched too thin and the lack of a concerted defense is the result. I don't think anyone trying to bust in or break out has ever been prevented by NPC's, though that doesn't answer the question of why so few people seem to try.

The problem I don't think is breaking into the gates so much as breaking out of them. If you engage in crime in upper it was still possible to -flee- under the shield era. Ours was a suicide charge more or less, Blue. At least for me.

The last PC I heard breaking out of the gates was wanted for murder of an NPC who was slain during a break-out attempt after a fight.

If a PC gets a DM and pickpockets a PC in upper, gets pursued, mob of PCs and NPCs they not only have to get past a handful of NPC humans, an animatron, but the entire mob.

That's a lot of heat to have on the heels for just what should be considered a very petty crime.

[The Old Hack]

I am not sure I understand the problem. It is less than a month ago that I saw a Lowersman make a very ballsy attack on an Upper character inside Starag's, of all places. And for what? The guy had said something annoying in reply to a Sending. That was REALLY COOL and had to have been improvised within minutes. And it made me walk much more warily for days after. And all it took was an angry impulse and a helpful DM. (I am not sure it counts as an 'assassination attempt' as I am fairly sure the perpetrator only wanted to give the victim a beatdown, but still!)

That's a lot of heat to have on the heels for just what should be considered a very petty crime.

RwG, you are not taking the true severity of the crime into account.

PC reaction to the news of two dozen NPCs massacred in the Housing Vault: "Meh."
PC reaction to personally being pickpocketed for about a dozen gp's worth, or even at risk of it: "BURN THE WITCH!"

I remember the old days in Mistlocke where EVERY SINGLE PP ATTEMPT got blamed on Molly Smogson. Even when she wasn't online. Fear the outraged player when they lose a little of their precious gold.

[CondorHero]

I would think the state of heighten security would make perfect sense for a city that experiences some sort of attack from outsiders at least once or twice a month.

So what if it is now harder to attack some one in Upper while they're in Upper? It just means you gotta be more creative in trying to kill them than buff yourselves up into Super Saiyans and kill them from invisibility. Or wear a suicide vest and blow yourselves. You might need multiple suicide vests I guess, one to blow up the gate another to blow up your target. Woah! inclusion of players!? Isn't that what EFU about?

[The Old Hack]

You might need multiple suicide vests I guess, one to blow up the gate another to blow up your target. Woah! inclusion of players!? Isn't that what EFU about?

Dude, you can still solo that! You just need to wear two vests! o.O

[Random_White_Guy]

So what if it is now harder to attack some one in Upper while they're in Upper?

Having been the first person to crash the gates I can tell you- The situation is that it isn't an IC protection, it's an OOC one.

The "They let anyone who isn't a thrall in" isn't an argument because it's not about getting in. It's about getting out.

And if you have to risk "Murder charges for killing a gate NPC", PCs strut about goading you to act as if they're invincible even when there's no watch presence on the streets, the entire upper mob of PCs, and some high-risk escape plan? All because a few NPCs that do nothing and a clicking placable are now is unaccessable mid PvP without DM input? That creates an atmosphere of mechanical immunity and hurdles to overcome, something even the Shield never had.

And when it comes to being "proactive criminal" and trying to rob someone, trying to steal a relic you were hired to steal, trying to assassinate someone, trying to steal from a shopkeeper in the market, trying to do anything?

The risk doesn't equal the reward. Criminals have less to do aside from highway robbery because there's a mountain to overcome to steal an apple, NPCs who have bounties on their head via scripting suddenly have higher wanted status and prestige than PC criminals.

Even the Docks/Ziggurat during the height of the fight with the Stygians never had an NPC-ran checkpoint system. An NPC with a barricade sure, but you could try and blitz past it.

Mistlocke during the peak war with the Conclave and riotous fights between Caermyn and Aberdenn? The bridge had NPCs but you could make a run of it.

A placable and some NPCs shouldn't replace the onus on PC pursuers to be successful in capturing a criminal.

I don't care how you phrase it, I don't care what "IC Justification" there is for it.

PCs sit in Sanctuary feeling 100% safe because OOC difficulties have made committing a crime in upper which was already stupidly risky and borderline suicidal, less plausible. It's just not worth it for smaller, pettier crimes. If you want to murder someone, sure, you'll find a way to murder them.

There's an air of security that the shield never had.

And EFU suffers for it.

[CondorHero]

I'd like to point out there are more than one way to bypass security. No matter how air tight and fool proof a mechanism seems, it is operated by human, and human can be fooled, and even manipulated to work to your advantage.

If you think gates will close, then bribe a guard to keep it from closing. Or invest some time to have a fellow conspirator be in the WaW and have them keep the gate open for your escape. this solution involves: planning, creativity, limited DM involvement and could entangle other players into the plots, FUN!

OR

If you want a secret tunnel, dig one yourself. technically you could tunnel from lower to upper, umber hulks have done it before (oh hey, there's a few of them in the Housing Vault) . Sure there's DM involvement in this, probably need and app of some sort, but it gets players involve too, and time.


I feel that there are IC solution in game that a player can push that would fire off more productive interactions than a PVP fest.

[zDark Shadowz]

(In my opinion...)

The Warder who does the enthrallment testing talks to anyone, even while they are invisible. Which means he doesn't confirm identities of people - Anyone should be able to get in on that basis alone. Tala is right, they let anyone in.

I'm sure there are brutes that want to enter and exit with a bloodied sword into a town that clearly has sparse security beyond the intimidating front gate, perma-killing everyone in sight NPC and PC alike, defiling and mutilating peoples corpses... But you can do that in the wilds, too, or go attack the people in Lower who have even worse security. It's still attacking Sanctuary as a whole.

It's one way to play the game. Not anything I approve of myself, but not going to deny anyone how they want to play.

I bet the DMs would prefer to just watch the creative ways people come up with killing people in Upper while remaining undetected and walking out the front gate unmolested. How many people have been so quietly assassinated and removes from Sanctuary undetected and walk about freely? I bet the DMs would likely reward that, instead of the DM having to take control of multiple NPCs because one player wanted to make a mess for the sake of making a mess.

[Ironside]

I can sympathize with various villains on this.  Like SC said, we will take a look at things and talk it over.

[GorkaMorka]

On the other hand, it would be a bit silly if city defences were so flimsy any psychopath could run in and out on a murder spree. It's Sanctuary and all, but come on.