Remove Random HP Rolls

[Kandebyn Olar]

It's our DMs being stubborn and not wanting to change their minds :P. Or maybe they think it weeds out the ''bad'' players whom they think might be more interested in the game's mechanics than in the story.

[Talir]

It's more that this is the standard and has always been in DnD. You have to go out of your way to deliberately enable max hit points gained by hit dice, akin to a cheat toggle which adjusts system behaviour.

Don't see any arguments here that sways the opinion against what about 10 years has shown. Of course people would love more hit points but it does not have the miraculous benefits you guys seem to think. It is upon you to argue that a change would make it better -- thus the suggestion forum -- but I recommend letting this one go. I don't see a change in this ever happening.

[Hound]

I'm not entirely sure what the last decade has shown, other than martial class characters suiciding themselves on the sly to try and get better HP rolls at the lower levels. As far as logical arguments on PvP balance are concerned, I think I made an excellent case in my initial post and my response to Pentaxius' counter-arguments. Tradition isn't always a good thing.


Everywhere other than HP, we see static values for defense and random values for offense. Characters have static saves, AC, amount of DR received from blur or stoneskin, immunity to death and negative energies, the amount of DR provided against elements when protection spells are cast, the amount of health summoned creatures have when conjured. Only in HP rolls do we see a deviance from this norm.

It's in offensive values that the RNG of D&D takes place. Rolling 20s to attack, rolling a 20 to resist a spell, rolling a dice to determine damage from a physical attack or an evocation spell, rolling dice to determine spot and listen vs hide and M/S, rolling dice to determine resistance to Knockdown and Called Shot.

[VanillaPudding]

Don't see any arguments here that sways the opinion against what about 10 years has shown. .

Well I mean, Barbarian rage and multi-classes were fine for just as long but they got changed.

[Paha]

Here's the thing.

What we know is that random vs guaranteed full hp - of course full hp is better. Everyone enjoys it more than low rolls.

While Efu is very much it's own entity, it is still running D&D spirited engine and build around those things, with the intention that creators liked nwn and D&D rules. Whether one likes all of the rules or not, it's a choice that was made intentionally. Big spirit of this has always been dice rolls in some aspects. For greater good, it was not made that every character is randomly rolled, because that takes too much freedom of choice away. We've even brought an optional option where even more aspects are decided by the roll of the dice just because we enjoy the challenge there.

This is not a matter of logic, but a matter of choice. It can be argued against, but like with all games and rules, people choose to follow them for some reason. Not logic. It's because it's preferred for challenge, different approach or whatever other reason one may have. This is it for us. We've long decided that we prefer this variety, whether it's for good or bad. It's not logical decision, it is a choice to follow this old style and mechanic. In it's own little way, it has a meaning. In order for there to be true moments of triumph, feeling of success or absolute streak of luck, the moments one remembers over 90 other times they've had mediocre or less memorable events, it is those few where everything clicks that you remember - it is because they are out of the norm and average. Again, I can easily argue myself over this, but as I said, it is choice to aim for that. It's not a logical or iron clad argument.

There is a reason why many new games don't do this, and that's fine. It may not be a form that majority likes, but that's why we have this kind community that still sticks to these kind games. In the end Efu is one of them, and more so, Efu was build with certain vision and has grown and changed according to all people involved. It's core vision still remains and few things have not changed - because of the choice to keep it that way.

If this is a game breaker for you, I am really sorry about that. This is not something any of us wants, but some people accept and maybe even like the possibility of it.

[EventHorizon]

This one thing is certainly not a game-breaker for me, and with the admission that, "It's not logical, it's just one of the components that arbitrarily makes EFU what it is," I can accept it with no true problems, whatever my preference may be.

[Big Orc Man]

I wish we could do all min rolls, honestly.  A world is a lot more interesting when that scummy vagabond can put a knife in you and you don't just flinch it off like a bee sting.

[goate]

I personally enjoy the random HP rolls. Sure, when I roll the minimum I make a sad face and curl up into the fetal position on my bed and sing Celine Dione's "My Heart will go on" to myself for an hour, but peaks require valleys. When I roll that sweet max I get to run around fist-pumping for an hour.

But, let's face it, it's me, I'll lose the PvP no matter how many HPs I have.

-gracken

[PlayaCharacter]

In order for there to be true moments of triumph, feeling of success or absolute streak of luck, the moments one remembers over 90 other times they've had mediocre or less memorable events, it is those few where everything clicks that you remember - it is because they are out of the norm and average.

I have not played EfU in quite a long time because I never experience these moments of triumph any more. Since shortly after the beginning of EfU:M, my consistent experience here has been one of repeatedly beating my head against a wall to see what sticks. I spent three years after that trying to make it work, believing that the problem was something I was doing wrong. If it were a matter of luck, I should have gotten lucky at least once by now. Somewhere along the way, EfU strayed from its original mission of a grimdark and difficult setting to being needlessly frustrating. Thwarting player ambition is a poor substitute for challenge. When I found myself getting angry every single time I tried out a new concept, that's when I realized it was time for me to play something else for a while.

These days, I occasionally drop in and read the forums to see if anything has changed. That's why this thread caught my eye.

If this is a game breaker for you, I am really sorry about that. This is not something any of us wants, but some people accept and maybe even like the possibility of it.

Random HP rolls is not a game breaker for me. It was never a problem before. Extreme difficulty is not a game breaker for me, we've always had that here. Not even the removal of player storage was a game breaker for me, despite the fact that it makes the use of the crafting system obnoxiously frustrating. No, the game breaker for me is the answer I just got to my question. The policy is bad, you know it's bad, and you won't change it because that's the way it's always been.

There is something that a new player said a couple of years ago in the Improving Player Retention thread that really comes to mind right now:

But you're trying to be too many things as a server. You're trying to maintain a high level of RP, but you don't want people to act rudely to new players. You're trying to encourage people not to powergame, but you've made a set of rules so harsh that that feels like the only option. You cannot be everything to everyone.

There was once a time when all these various issues were balanced out. It was possible to balance out all the competing goals of the server because the DM team accepted constructive feedback and listened to the community. That is no longer the case. I had some good times here, and I'm going to miss this place. If anyone wants to find me, look me up on Steam.

You can now lock this thread. Good dark.

[Haer Dalis 83]

It is honestly quite unbelievable that this thread has reached three pages. I will not address the mechanical arguments presented by the OP because I find they are an oversimplification of pvp. No pvp happens in a vacuum, and I dare any sane mage to enter pvp using his four fourth level slots to memorize four ice storms. I will just say that if 10 more or less hp make or break your character, you're clearly doing something wrong and would better take a few moments off to consider if cooperative storytelling really is your cup of tea.

[Hound]

It is honestly quite unbelievable that this thread has reached three pages. I will not address the mechanical arguments presented by the OP because I find they are an oversimplification of pvp. No pvp happens in a vacuum, and I dare any sane mage to enter pvp using his four fourth level slots to memorize four ice storms. I will just say that if 10 more or less hp make or break your character, you're clearly doing something wrong and would better take a few moments off to consider if cooperative storytelling really is your cup of tea.

I've already addressed both the vacuum principle and the argument of the matter being insignificant in the grander scheme of PvP in a previous post - it isn't the 10 HP or 33 HP disparity that is the issue, it is the fact that the existence of random HP rolls is incongruous with the rest of the character progression system, which is static in every way. It is not internal attributes that are randomised in D&D - it is external ones outside of your character, that your character applies their static abilities in an attempt to overcome. I refer again to my poker analogy - even though the hand you are dealt, and the hand of your opponent, is randomised and changes turbulently throughout the course of the game, the number of chips you started with is static and it is a variable you can rely on in your tactics when addressing the obstacles set in front of you.

And no, EFU is not a game of poker, but it is very much a game of probabilities, so the principles are not entirely unrelated.

[AllMYBudgies]

Well regardless. The points Paha makes stand and this won't be changing. An interesting discussion, but that's all.

[Wiggyboy]

I sympathise with the frustration of the HP rolling system sometimes. It is however a hard coded aspect of NWN. As Tailr said, the choices are between maximum for everyone, or random.

A middle-of-the-road average system would be fine from my personal perspective, but it's just seemingly not possible to implement. So of the two systems we have to choose from, we've chosen randomness.

It can really suck sometimes if you get entirely too unlucky and end up substantially below the average (though this isn't as common as you might think). There are many ways you could attempt to roleplay that frailty in-game though. Old war wounds, or the result of various traumas, etc. If it's something you do well, it's entirely possible a DM might take notice of it and give you something to even the playing field a bit.