Get rid of the Trial Process

[Bride at the Funeral]

I really like the idea of a bail / bond system that would remove the tedium of waiting in jail but also keep the trial system in place. Also, it gives the PC the choice of whether to rot in jail or not, and likewise the guards the choice of what to do with them while they have them in custody.

Some of the most fun I've had here has been from the inside of a jail cell.

[Big Orc Man]

Definitely a legitimate gripe.
 
Awaiting trial can ruin the groove of a character if done for too long.
 
However, the only alternative is that law enforcement factions have their rank and file members able to dole out extremely harsh penalties on their own.
 
Otherwise, there's very little risk if you are caught as you can't be summarily exiled (probably) or executed on the spot without a trial, and jailing for a time isn't much of a punishment.  It would quickly become "You killed three people?  Fine is 2000 gold, I guess."
 
Makes me wonder if there's some kind of IC workaround, like a kill-switch collar to place on the criminal awaiting trial, so when the time for the trial comes, the criminal has to arrive or he gets his neck blown off.
 
 
 
Another note, and an important one: a cool law enforcement PC, like any other cool PC, will provide entertainment for others.  That applies doubly if you have someone just sitting there in a cell for any length of time.  Try to give them at least something memorable about the experience!

[Random_White_Guy]

I would think making that change to PVP rules would favor crime a little too heavily, don't you think?

You can attack anyone you like in the wilds, mug them, take all their posessions even end their PC with FD all without a DM....but you can't arrest them if you happen to best them? It is a small and unfortunate inconvenience, but I don't think it is as big a deal as you are making it sound.

Kidnapping PCs in the wilds and driving them back to a faction HQ was always frowned upon, with groups such as the Mist Wraiths. I fail to see how the Law is any different than that.

My complaint isn't against the guard PCs, they handled it great and were perfectly fine in their pursuits. EFU has always had a great number of law PCs who kept things interesting. It's just one of those things that a workaround can just never be found since PCs/DMs aren't always available.

[Testy McTryoutshirt]

Put them in the worm caves to labor away, lol.  >_> Seriously... a labor camp as opposed to a prison would be far more cool and could build its own sort of sub-culture over time.

This. I recall a similar system existed in Efu1. I thought it was amusing/entertaining, and a decent alternative to stocks/trial time.

[Dr Dragon]

Honestly I am for a trial system, but I feel by making serious crimes require a trial DMS have seriously given themselves a potential serious headache.....

Trials for things like Assault, Banditry ETC really shouldn't require a DM for a punishment to be dished out. Even resisting arrest is now a crime that requires a trial. I am all for capital gruesome crimes like Murder ETC being capital crimes that require trial. However petty offenses, and common hooligandry shouldn't require a trial.


Honestly heres a problem I see happening. Say an overzealous Watchmen arrests literally a bunch of people, and a DM is needed to try, and each every single one of them. PCS would be waiting forever for a trial in a long ass line if EFU4's laws were in EFU1 with a watchmen like Sten around.


Though honestly I say let serious offenses require a trial were PCS can contest/appeal punishments already rendered by Watchmen, and be entitled to compensation if the Watch fucked up. While the city itself is entitled to compensation if you are found guilty by a judge in addition to maybe an additional criminal charge of perjury/contempt of court.  


I just think our current system of having PCS potentially going on trial for serious offenses to be kind of silly, and really feel bad for the DMS who will have to oversee trials for ridiculous stuff. There will be an overzealous Watchmen someday who can, and will arrest five people in a single day for separate serious offenses, and we will have literally up to 10 + Pcs waiting for days in jail to get on trial for resisting arrest. In fact I might even step up to the plate, and do it one of these days.

[PlayaCharacter]

Maybe we need to look into what overloaded court systems actually do in real life and encourage more plea deals and bribes. I mean, do you really need a DM to in order to take a bribe? "Fifty coin and we can all just forget about this."

[Testy McTryoutshirt]

...though forcing good or lawful characters to take bribes or cut deals with evil crooks in the name of OOC courtesy doesn't exactly sound like a perfect solution.

[PlayaCharacter]

You aren't forcing them to do anything, and no, it's not a perfect solution. I very much doubt there is one. It's just one tool among many.

Your mileage may vary depending on your character, but a plea bargain is very much a lawful approach to the problem. Bribes cover quite a lot of the rest of the alignment spectrum. Then, of course, there are many situations in which neither of those would be viable options, but they do cover a lot of ground. Throw in a bail bond option along with some version of BOM's collar and you've just about got the whole problem licked.

[The Band Played On]

I don't believe that there's been a single instance so far where anyone has had to wait more than a very small handful of hours to go to trial, so to me this all seems like a premature reaction to a currently non-existent problem. Certainly, the potential for a problem might exist, but that doesn't mean the way things are run needs a revamping just yet.

[Garem]

the. trial process is a very cool and enriching part of the server.

however, it does take time. What do you think about having a mini game of sorts

[SanTelmo]

What is happening in this thread...

Oversight for a trial did not happen in an hour? It sounds like you're way too impatient.

The cell time can be used to your advantage and for fun if both players are willing to play it, rather than the guard or your allies going back to the quest train as your character AFKs in the cell. You can seek to bribe those who caught you, appeal to their lawful side and perhaps ask them if they could find some witnesses you would like to testify or give a statement in the trial - whatever you think might be worthwhile to do before the trial.

Furthemore, is couple hours of wait, or even a days wait too much to spare for something that might possibly end your character or at least effect him in a major way? You don't have to sit in game if you find no way to roleplay during that time. Feel free to logout and do something else. If you are feeling confident that is the end of your character, perhaps use it to concept your next one in case you're so efu-addicted to use your time otherwise. I'm sure someone can find you in IRC or wherever when there's someone around to oversee your trial.

Usually the DMs can be reached quite easily for things like this, IG or IRC. I later found out that I was available during this time but none ever sent me a PM in IRC so it was quite hard to help.

[Letsplayforfun]

I'm not a fan of these XXth century like trials, and view them more as an OOC courtesy to PCs that should most of the time be killed on the spot ICly if they reach the point of needing a trial.

Seeing PCs bicker on words to "prove" that they didn't technically break the law is irritating to me in that sense, too.

You're actually pretty lucky to actually be given a chance to continue your PC. Sometimes it's even dishartening for "Good" PCs (even perhaps players?) to see notorious criminals waltz out of the courtroom with just a fine or a whiping which no one cares about because it has no mechanical effect on the PC.

Back to the OP: if the counterpart is needing to wait an hour or so for a DM, it's really no big deal IMO.

[PlayaCharacter]

The trial system is based on the traditions of the Dalelands, which is very much an IC part of the gameworld.

I strongly disagree that someone is "lucky" to merely get a fair trial at all. If that is indeed the case for IC and not OOC reasons, then get ready for a rebellion because Sanctuary will soon fall again. I think the Bresleys were wiser and smarter than that.

You're entirely right, LPfF, that some folks don't get fair justice in "the system," and that sometimes that leads to some disappointment on the part of the player that far exceeds the merit of the actual situation for the character (I was guilty of that, just ask DeputyCool). But I'd still maintain that even a broken court system is more IC in this setting than none at all.

At this point, I really think the suggestion, and the argument behind it, are a matter of finding what works for us OOCly.

[VengefulSeraphim]

I like trials, even if they're a slight bit anachronistic. Can we even talk about anachronisms given we're living in a steampunk aficionado's wet dream? I'm really not sure we can.

Besides, I think trials give characters not exactly optimized towards putting others in the dumpster a place to oppose other characters, a place for speechcraft-oriented characters and such a place to shine. You know what I mean?

[Random_White_Guy]

I wasn't going to respond but after Elmo's response I figure I'd hilight more what my problem was.

From the PVP rules and Guidelines-

- If you're a member of a NPC faction, you may engage in PvP in that faction area even without a DM if absolutely necessary (you should still try to get one). This is mostly to address situations where the other character may even be metagaming the unpossessed NPCs by refusing to leave, etc. The intent is not to allow unsupervised assassinations, but rather standard faction-enforcement.

To your point Elmo I don't see it as "Impatient" I see it as stuck in a situation where there was nothing I could do because PCs wanted a "Win".

I see it as a counter point to the PVP rule of "This is mostly to address situations where the other character may even be metagaming the unpossessed NPCs by refusing to leave":

I was stuck and couldn't leave because PCs were refusing to allow release since they held the keys and some IC impression that their position let them abuse NWN mechanics.

If they had no DM they shouldn't have taken me back into the NPC faction area and more or less ambushed me with "Okay you are under arrest here behind two faction locked doors and no DM, do you submit? If not good luck getting out. If yes give us all your weapons, sit in this box, and shut up" If I fought back I'd have been beat up or won, either way PvP in a no DM area, bad form.

I said yes, stuck in a cell, 10 minutes of RP, 70 minutes of Tells and Checking IRC in which one of the arresting PCs had to log to run errands for RL. Eventually I said fuck it, logged out, to handle my own RL stuff and was told I was "Obnoxious because I couldn't wait".

Trial was held, apologized to the PC guards for being a bit testy but the whole situation was kinda crappy.

Then it happened Again today

Frankly I'm pissed and the entire situation has me beyond caring between yesterday and today. At least credit to the PC today for fumbling around about "Not being able to find the key", issuing threats, and overall bringing some aspect of RP.

Honestly though I think it's pretty miserable form if the "A.O.K." method of operation is "HAHA YOU DONT HAVE A FACTION KEY YOU ARE AT MY WHIMS".

If I were a new player I'd be just as frustrated with the situation, and as someone who has thrown a lot of time and effort into the server I think it's kinda embarrassing that it happened twice. "Get a DM and try to FD them" is the response I was given by no less than seven different PCs after the second occurrence today. But frankly I see it more as an abuse of OOC fact that without their opening the door to let me out or beating them up I'm fucked, and beating up a Watcher inside the Watch House [sarcastic]never ends poorly on EFU[/sarcastic]

It just feels like Gankbaiting and very, very, very low form beyond what I have come to expect from EFU in terms of both story and conflict.

I shouldn't have to worry about all the other threats EFU provides as well as "Oh by the way the faction PC is given a key and you can either do what he says, kick his ass and pay the consequences, or log off".

And frankly I've never even heard of any other faction beyond Law Enforcement ever attempting this kind of thing And getting away with it