Suggestion for a PRC

[Egon the Monkey]

Basically, what ScottyB seemed to want to make the Archaeologist into (A way for caster scolars to multiclass into a stealthy loremaster who cas deal with traps and puzzles) and what most players seemed to want (Indiana Jones!) don't quite match. I really like the way he's changed Archaologist to improve it for casters, but I'd like to suggest something that fulfils that "cunning, fighty tomb raider" idea more.

That way we'd have 2 classes with similar aims, one for caster types, one for more combative/ballsy "snatch the Idol, shoot the guy with the sword" types. This one would be made to be survivable and fast, to snatch and grab, but know what to grab. You'd trade Sneak Attacks for the ability to get out of bad situations fast.

So:
Ruins Raider

Requirements.
5 Lore, 4 Tumble. Must have personally led an expedition to recover an item of significant research value, as determined by a major scholarly figure.

Hit Die: d6
BAB: Secondary, 3/4 levels

Weapon/Armor Proficiencies:
Rogue weapons, Simple Weapons, Light armor

Saves:
Reflex, Will

Skill Points: 5/level

Class Skills
Appraise, Bluff, Taunt, Disable Trap, Heal, Hide, Listen, Lore, Move Silently, Open Lock, Persuade, Search, Tumble, Spot, Use Magic Device

Level 1:
Defensive Roll
Skill Focus: Disable Trap, Search,

Level 2
Monk Speed
Disarm
Skill Focus Tumble, UMD

Level 3
Woodland Stride
Improved Disarm
Mobility

Level 4
Spring Attack
Evasion

Level 5
Blinding Speed

As you can see, it's loaded with feats designed to support a character that can grab an objective and get out. Taunt as a class skill and the Disarming and movement feats change the combat focus from "get to the side and sneakattack" to "disable an opponent and finish him or leg it".

[Wern8]

I think that having two similar PrC is pretty redundant.

[Egon the Monkey]

Not really. It's two classes with similar aims but drastically different ways of approaching them. The Archaeologist is a sneaky, magical guy who is ridiculously good with traps and lore and uses a lot of spells. The Raider would be a more reckless, athletic individual with a "find it now, figure it out later" attitude.

Think of it as the difference between Barbarians and Fighters. Both do the same job, "Be Tough and Kill Things", but the Fighter relies on a variety of trained abilities, whereas the Barbarian just flips out and CRUSHES FACE.

[9lives]

For the requirements, that is a pretty beefy PRC.

[Tracker]

Heh, I figured "start with what would reflect the idea best, then wait for suggestions to prune it down to what is balanced" would be better than "what should be stuck in to make this good?"

It's supposed to work like a lowish HP, defensive specced Rogue/Fighter would, with the feats instead of Sneak Attack. I stuck in a lot of stuff that although good individually, would be fairly redundant.

For example, high Tumble meant you don't really need Spring Attack, but it's a progression. Evasion you'd likely get from a previous Rogue level anyway.

Low requirements to encourage taking this as the main focus of a build, not just a few levels. RP requirement designed to require something particularly impressive, with the idea that you need an awesome concept for it, since runnign around ducking and disarming should be a rather entertaining PC to play and to adventure with.

Maybe it needs lower HP? The point was for something fairly hard to hit and irritating but not a sheer damage powerhouse in combat, and able to explore well.

[Egon the Monkey]

Heh, I figured "start with what would reflect the idea best, then wait for suggestions to prune it down to what is balanced" would be better than "what should be stuck in to make this good?"

It's supposed to work like a lowish HP, defensive specced Rogue/Fighter would, with the feats instead of Sneak Attack. I stuck in a lot of stuff that although good individually, would be fairly redundant so more of a smooth progression.

For example, high Tumble meant you don't really need Spring Attack, but it's a progression. Evasion you'd likely get from a previous Rogue level anyway.

Low requirements to encourage taking this as the main focus of a build, not just a few levels. RP requirement designed to require something particularly impressive, with the idea that you need an awesome concept for it, since runnign around ducking and disarming should be a rather entertaining PC to play and to adventure with.

Maybe it needs lower HP? The point was for something fairly hard to hit and irritating but not a sheer damage powerhouse in combat, and able to explore well. [fiddles with the idea on the 1st post]

[Aldrick Tanith]

Basically, what ScottyB seemed to want to make the Archaeologist into (A way for caster scolars to multiclass into a stealthy loremaster who cas deal with traps and puzzles) and what most players seemed to want (Indiana Jones!) don't quite match.

I disagree.  The Archaeologist was designed for the Indiana Jones style character, not the scholarly loremaster.  If I wanted to play a scholarly loremaster as a wizard, there really is no way I'm going to play an Archaeologist.  The only way or reason I'd choose to do that is for the ability to disarm traps, open locks and search.  That really isn't worth losing the ability to gain new spell levels.

---

If you want to create a PrC for Wizardly Scholars and Loremasters, then create a PrC called Scholar and focus it in that area.  As the Archaeologist PrC was designed to do what you are suggesting here, it makes the suggestion redundant.

[Egon the Monkey]

Archaeologist gains the spellslots as its previous caster would now, and Auto Still Spell at l5. Scotty updated it. It still only gets the lowest BAB. What i was throwing out there was a more "Tomb Raider" playstyle as opposed to the pure trap/lore expertise.

[Aldrick Tanith]

Oh, I know - don't get me wrong Egon.  I wasn't trying to say your idea sucked or anything, or that wanting to take the Archaeologist in a different direction was a bad idea.  I was just trying to point out that, from all I could tell, that was the intention of the Archaeologist.  

As you said, Scotty updated it to add that stuff in later.  While it makes it slightly better for spellcasting classes, the PrC still has other issues that weren't addressed.  I made my suggestions (in the other thread) based upon improving / expanding upon what was presented.  

Really, I look at the Archaeologist as non-magical like a Rogue.  I think that, if we wanted a Wizardly Scholar PrC, then we should focus on creating a Wizardly Scholar PrC, and not pretend that the Archaeologist is one - it's not in any way shape or form.

Thus, the point of my previous post was basically to say, 'The suggestion of creating a new PrC to do something similar to the Archaeologist is redundant, when your suggestion might have been better served in suggesting these changes, modifications and alterations be made to the Archaeologist itself.'

[Tracker]

Yeah, I was going to suggest changes, liked your suggestions for it, but, the way it went with bonus spellslots actually makes it a total rogue/caster combo (which is cool, and I would app for the new version) and I wanted to suggest a basically non-magical PrC for non-spellcaster PCs with similar goals.

[Egon the Monkey]

I think we've got similar idea on this, but going on it different ways. I reckon the updated Archaologist isn't really what people expected from the concept, but it's turned into an more useful caster/rogue combo with those spellslots.

You'd rather bring it round to the more roguey type PrC it seemed to want to be, whereas I think that the new way the class went is good, so why not forget what it was meant to be orginally, and think of a new way to do that original idea?

It is now a way for casters to trade spell effectiveness (caster level) for a greater level of skill to help them explore.

The idea I put up was intending to split the two ideas for Archaologist (magic and traps/exploration specialisation) to two classes rather than trying to make a PrC suited for both the more combative rogue or bard PCs and for low BAB mages. that's why I was putting up suggestions on Archaologist too.

[Aldrick Tanith]

That's the thing though.  If you wanted to be those things, why not just multi-class into rogue?  While it might have been made more attractive to spellcasters, if you go back and read the thread from the beginning then it should become clear that it was underpowered.

Suffice it to say, it is like applying to be a Kobold Sorcerer / Archaeologist.  If you want to gimp yourself that bad, then just perma in the OOC area - it saves time.  :P

I'd rather see the Archaeologist focus on what it was meant to be, than try and become something else.  In the end, you'll just end up with something no one likes.  That is what a PrC is all about, becoming more focused and specialized in something.

[Dr Dragon]

I think Archaeologist is a ridiculous PRC. You see their this class you know rogue.

[Egon the Monkey]

At the risk of dragging this off topic....
I HAVE permaed in the OOC area before. No, seriously. I summoned a domain summon I didn;t have summoning points for and it ate my PC. I laughed, screenied it and posted it in the Funny Screenies thread, then gave up on him out of shame.

[Garem]

Withholding an opinion (mostly because I don't really have one), but Tumble does not appear to be on the Class Skills list. It might ought be up there, considering you gave it the Skill Focus at level 2.