Gray Guard (the concept of it)

[Wern8]

I do not want to be seen as a whiner who complains when DMs create new stuff for the server, all these new stuff are great and in fact I find the general concept of the Gray Guard Prestige Class to be interesting, the class should definitely remain, but I feel that it would have much more potential if the idea of it is changed. This PrC should not be for Paladins, but instead for other classes like Fighters, Rangers, and the like. Perhaps not for good aligned PCs as well.

The PrC as it is takes away from the challenging experience of playing a Paladin, and it seems quite unnecessary, Paladins can still fight evil well enough while sticking to their code, even though its a challenge.

At the meantime, the Gray Guard is too ineffective for its own good, and it makes no sense. On IRC some argue that the Guard will not be going against the paladin code often, and if they do, they must have an excellent reason behind it to atone for it or turn fallen in time. How then will they be effective? And this basically makes the Class little different than Paladins. Why can't Paladins be given the same opportunity to atone as well? (not that i am a fan of that, unless it is made difficult to do) On the other hand there are some (including me before) who think that the Class is more extreme than that. If that is the case, then the Guard would have already gone too far beyond the code.

In the end, it seems to me that all the Guard adds to the Paladin is a different flavor, and style. Though the same can be said for some other PrC's for other Classes (those are fine in my opinion), yet would it not be much more awesome and fun if the Guard is taken to the next level?

The Gray Guard should be the epitome of a warrior who has seen too much evil in the world, and who fights to destroy it all, regardless of the means, regardless of the path he must walk to face them. They should not be chained by the Paladin code, and the need to atone at every turn. Their alignment probably should not be good aligned as well, but neutral, or so, to represent the means they use. Mechanically, I think they are fine.

[Aldrick Tanith]

I like the theme of the Grey Guard as is, and really when I read it, I totally wanted to play a Grey Guard of Hoar.  Certain deities lend themselves better to it than others.  Lathander, for example, is probably a bad deity for a Grey Guard to follow.  Hoar, Helm and a few others actually might work rather well.

[PanamaLane]

I'm honestly on the fence regarding this, and I've given it a lot of thought, because I do think this could be a great idea for my character in particular.

I do think restricting it to paladins is a good thing. It's not just about atonement after the fact, but also before, much like holy assassins of old, who used to pray and suffer for years so that they could commit "evil" acts with absolution later. The idea, of course, being that you -had- to uphold a strict code before and after the act or you could not get into heaven. Thus, the paladin seems to be the only class that fits.

What bothers me is the lack of perceived benefit. Smiting is cool, yes. But why not adapt the class to be more "assassin" oriented? Give things like invisibility as a spell, or something beyond the H/MS/Bluff. As it stands both the Assassin and the Gray Guard PrC seem to be oriented toward taking people out, but 100% of the time I would go with a rogue/assassin over a paladin/gray guard if I wanted to get the job done. I mean, death attack, invis, grace, visage, trumps the smiting, imo.

[Mort]

The class is very debated and I doubt we will see many grey guards about until these debates are solved. But your concern is shared by many of DM team, I think, Han Wern.

[ScottyB]

Perhaps we should take away the ability to apply for it, and - in the same way I used to give PrCs in my table-top games - make this something where we have total control over whether or not an NPC helps you fulfill the prereqs so we say, "you can be a Gray Guard now!"

It is not something your PC should be ICly striving to acquire; also, while it may seem to take some of the edge off in regards to fighting evil, you begin to make enemies among other paladins and perhaps even clerics of your faith who aren't aware of your status.

[Caddies]

I definitely agree with Wern8. Some manner of PRC for non-paladins who fight the good fight yet definitely not without the struggle leaving its mark on them and their methods would be great, as opposed to a PRC for a specific class with (IMO) dubious mechanical and roleplay bonuses/pre-requisites.

[core]

I'd love for this PRC to be opened to more classes/alignments (NG and possibly CG?).

[9lives]

Thus nullifying the raison d'etre.

I am in two minds about the PRC, really. I wouldn't be worried as a player though.

[core]

Perhaps a similar PRC being created for non-paladins, then.

[Aldrick Tanith]

Alright, I'll revise my views.  I think we can do something great with the Grey Guard, as religious crusaders is perhaps my most favorite religious archetype.  Here are my suggestions to contribute to this discussion.

This one line should sum up the Grey Guard:  "He who would fight monsters must take care lest he become a monster. When you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back into you." -  Nietzsche

The Grey Guard is a holy warrior who has gazed into the abyss, the heart of darkness.  He has seen the heart of true evil, and it has been imprinted upon his soul.  Most Grey Guards are fallen Paladins who have embraced a different philosophy, one that rejects taking the moral high ground and instead fights fire with fire.  Some churches actively seek to recruit and train Grey Guards, though they are most commonly found among heretical sects and religious fanatics.  A Grey Guard believes in an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and as you have done unto others so shall it be done unto you.

Yet, how far can you go until you become the monster you fight?  

Most Paladins would likely view Grey Guards as an anathema to all they stand for or as someone to pity.  Conversely, a Grey Guard would view a Paladin as a coward who is too weak to do what is necessary for the greater good.  While they both share similar enemies, the Grey Guard is a man of action and retribution, while the Paladin is a man of moral high ground.

All Grey Guards should be of a Lawful Alignment and fight against evil (real and perceived).  They should also embrace the following code, which is similar to that of a paladin:

Fealty:  Grey Guards must uphold the teachings of their deity. This does not mean street preaching, but they must live their lives and exhibit themselves in their deities image. They must obey the tenets of their god. They must strive to act in a manner that is in the interest of their god.

Honor:  Grey Guards must conduct themselves with a modicum of proper behavior.  He should keep his word, avoid slandering the names of others, avoid attacking or killing an unarmed and/or unaware foe, while avoiding lying and other practices of deceit.  

Valor:  Grey Guards must be courageous, both in battle and out.  While retreat is, at times, the only sensible option, if a Grey Guard routinely flees prematurely, or flees in a manner that endangers his companions, he could lose his powers. Likewise, a Grey Guard is expected to be brave in representing his faith, and standing up against his enemies out of battle as well.

Law:  Grey Guards view themselves as acting in the name of a higher authority, but this does not mean they do not pay attention to the law.  While most Grey Guards may view themselves as having a divine mandate to act above and beyond the law, they keep a close eye on those who try and use the law for their own personal gain.  The spirit of the law is more important than the letter, and if you feel the spirit of the law is wicked then turn to your faith for guidance.

---

Grey Guards should get all the same powers of a Paladin of levels 1-5, with perhaps one or two other extra powers thrown in (including Paladin spells).  The deities most likely to have Grey Guards are also the deities most likely to have Paladins, but other deities have been known to have them as well.  Grey Guards are also prominent among heretical sects.

Unlike a Paladin the Grey Guard can work with evil individuals (as he himself may detect as evil).

Who wants to play a Grey Guard of Bane, following the teachings of a heretical church? ;)

[Wern8]

What he said.

This is not a bad idea, I certainly find it better than the original Gray Guard idea.

And to comment on other posts here, I do not think that there should be two Gray Guard like PrCs. Just a single awesome one.

[ScottyB]

Tanith. Um. That is Gray Guard, minus the MAGICAL ATONEMENT FORCING YOU TO REMAIN LG, and the beholdenness to an NPC that is willing to help you atone. (Edit: Aha... and the non-dependence on being a paladin... ugh...)

A gray guard can band with evil people and take the chaos or evil shifts for as long as it takes to bring them down, then explain to their cleric why it was necessary and ask for forgiveness.

Basically, Tanith, you got what it means to be a gray guard, but forgot that in Forgotten Realms, good and evil and cosmic forces that the gods can play with like electrical charges. As long as you only use your gray guard powers for things your god likes the results of, they will keep pumping you full of LG forgiveness. Go too far, or act out of self-interest rather than divine intent, of course, and they will abandon you to become a monster of a man.

Edit: By the way, some of what you wrote about paladin-gray guard relations is almost verbatim what the canon description of gray guard mentions! I just didn't copy and paste every last paragraph from the source, that one included - since I was hoping maybe people would see that on their own.

More edit: It seems that people don't like the Gray Guard being for paladins because it's so unpaladiny. Well that's because it kind of is! Rather than letting the paladin fall, the church finds the paladin near the breaking point; unable to actually save them from whatever horrors utterly thrashed this paragon's virtue, they transform him into something stronger, more dangerous... and on a leash (keeping him to the code, making him dependent on atonement). I think that's very fascinating; it's certainly not something that should be done to many people. Making this a non-paladin class takes away from Gray Guard the fact that a shining example of a paladin has been fundamentally changed. The fact that the existence of the Gray Guard suggests some kind of failure in the paladin.

Do paladins hate Gray Guards for failing to remain valorous? Do they pity them for being weak? Or... do paladins fear Gray Guards for exposing their mortal limits?

[Aldrick Tanith]

Yeah, I know that's what the Grey Guard means... minus... those other things.

Although, I admit to liking the idea of freeing up the PrC for Fighters as a fanatical alternative to Divine Champion, or other appropriate character classes.  I also like the idea of a Grey Guard slowly falling, over time, until he becomes the evil that he fights against.  Helm and Hoar are ideal deities for this, as well as a number of non-paladin deities that might open themselves up to religious heresy.  (Kossuth for example.)

Basically, when I say "eye for an eye" - I mean it.  Hoar style.  You drown someone to death, the Grey Guard slowly drowns you to death.  A Grey Guard might engage in torture and other horrible and evil things.  He might even be willing to sell his soul if he felt it was for the Greater Good.  These are things so anti-good that it's impossible -not- to fall, and then find atonement from a LG deity (LN, maybe, depending on dogma - Hoar as an example).  Plus, it makes things OOCly difficult because I think what is considered going "too far" will change from DM to DM.

...but , you need an NPC Priest?  Why can't it be a PC Priest?

[Wern8]

My intention for making this suggestion thread was not to change the PrC radically, but to look into the Paladin-Gray Guard side of things.

And it should not matter if Tanith's idea is pretty much the same as the original Gray Guard concept, even by taking out the Paladin background of the class, I think it has already much more potential, and would be more interesting.

Anyway, to reply Scotty's edited post... a Paladin that has been fundamentally changed is a -fallen- Paladin. Why not just make it a PrC for Fallen Paladins? That is a fine compromise as well, in my opinion. It just really felt to me that Gray Guards are getting a free ride, and takes away from the seriousness of playing a Paladin.

[size=-5]Note: I am all cool, not ranting. Lets keep the debate going. >_>[/size]

[ScottyB]

The paladin is changed by the PrC, by the church, before they fall. You exchange certainty and independence for enemies where you once had friends, tools where you once had enemies, and become utterly reliant on a member of your faith - that is not a free ride! I expect you'd be getting some twisted hardcore DM attention tempting you to really go overboard, too.