Archeologist

[Wern8]

I think this PrC should go back to the drawing board and figure out what it is trying to do. Is it trying to be Indiana Jones or is it trying to be a scholar? It just isn't clear. I think the question of what role the Archaeologist will play, both in terms of contributing RP wise and mechanically to groups should be answered. Once it is clear how it fits into the overall scheme of EfU: A then I think it should be easy to fix any issues with it from there.

I think that the Archaeologist PrC is pretty straight forward, and simple. <_> What is there not to understand? Archaeologists are people who are involved in the study of ancient things. On EFU:A, this PrC makes a lot of sense due to the vast amount of ancient structures, ruins, and mysteries on Ymph. And the Archaeologist will be discovering/recovering such stuff.

As for what its trying to be, (IMO) what's wrong with there being two, three or more sides to the PrC? It should not be any clearer than the fact that it is for "archaeologists", you can be an adventuring type, a scholarly type, or pretty much anything that is interesting, and fun. There should be no strict ways of playing one, as long as they remain archaeologists.

As for the mechanical part of the class, I think the new changes are good, it does not feel weak, but that depends on your classes/build, and by the way the class can be tested on single player. I like the fact that you can be basically any class and be an archaeologist.

Keep the PrC I say, and edit if needed.

[Caddies]

Speaking of mechanics, I'd be interested to see what Howland's original bonuses were!

Speaking of RP, I'd definitely agree with Wern8. An archaeologist is a an archaeologist. They devote themselves to unearthing lost treasures and mysteries. Why they do so (for self-profit or for purely scholarly means, or whatever) depends on the character. The more open it is to different interpretations, the better!

[Aldrick Tanith]

I still don't understand why anyone who was serious about becoming an Archaeologist wouldn't just multi-class as rogue instead.  I am pretty sure the DM's aren't going to make it so that new discoveries are Archaeologist only.

But, yeah... Whatever.  >_>  I am beating a dead horse now, I think.

[Howlando]

My proposal was originally more "Indiana Jones," but Scotty's version is fine with me. At the moment, it's undeniably a very nice class for wizards or other casters - which I think Garem pointed out that traditionally in EFU the best scholars often were casters of some kind (Bell, Faussad, etc.)

[MisterPAIN]

A lot of what would be considered to be archeologists in Ymph's history wouldn't even have much search in the stats department, period.  Take Sky and Bookbadger's translation of the pair of genesis area tablets near the water, for instance.

If anything in game proves, is that any PC willing to explore ruins, smart, and survives can discover something crazy and write a something about it.  You shouldn't be multiclassing to be able to take the PrC for this, it should be the thing you take to represent growth in the field of discovery by interacting and working with a variety of knowledgeable characters and trap-savy people.

I would honestly like the PrC to be in the spirit of the late Archeological Society and see how it goes from there!

I think that the Archaeologist PrC is pretty straight forward, and simple. <_> What is there not to understand? Archaeologists are people who are involved in the study of ancient things. On EFU:A, this PrC makes a lot of sense due to the vast amount of ancient structures, ruins, and mysteries on Ymph. And the Archaeologist will be discovering/recovering such stuff.

As for what its trying to be, (IMO) what's wrong with there being two, three or more sides to the PrC? It should not be any clearer than the fact that it is for "archaeologists", you can be an adventuring type, a scholarly type, or pretty much anything that is interesting, and fun. There should be no strict ways of playing one, as long as they remain archaeologists.

As for the mechanical part of the class, I think the new changes are good, it does not feel weak, but that depends on your classes/build, and by the way the class can be tested on single player. I like the fact that you can be basically any class and be an archaeologist.

Keep the PrC I say, and edit if needed.

Speaking of mechanics, I'd be interested to see what Howland's original bonuses were!

Speaking of RP, I'd definitely agree with Wern8. An archaeologist is a an archaeologist. They devote themselves to unearthing lost treasures and mysteries. Why they do so (for self-profit or for purely scholarly means, or whatever) depends on the character. The more open it is to different interpretations, the better!

>.> I wonder how the mighty Wern8 got that idea.

[Wern8]

Perhaps changing tertiary BAB to secondary BAB is better. Might be better for those who want to be an adventuring type of Archaeologist, and the extra BAB shouldn't make those who wish to be Wizards much stronger either. It is very likely that they wouldn't be using their AB anyway.

[SkillFocuspwn]

I just don't see why a Wizard would -want- this class. It's a PrC to show someone getting really good at dungeon looting, it's no specific sign that you're really good at reading stuff and finding stuff out. Should anyone be able to become a WM if they're really awesome at killing stuff with a specified weapon? Should WM be changed so that -everyone-, no matter who they are, can do it if they use a weapon really well?

There is a difference between being a Divine Champion and fighting for your God. There is a difference between being an Archeologist and discovering massive secrets, stealing ancient Netherese loot, and exploring constantly. Not having this specific PrC limits you in absolutely no way, and I think it's perfectly suited to be an awesome little thing for Roguey-types, to make them even more desired on dungeon raids.

[Aldrick Tanith]

I just don't see why a Wizard would -want- this class. It's a PrC to show someone getting really good at dungeon looting, it's no specific sign that you're really good at reading stuff and finding stuff out. Should anyone be able to become a WM if they're really awesome at killing stuff with a specified weapon? Should WM be changed so that -everyone-, no matter who they are, can do it if they use a weapon really well?

There is a difference between being a Divine Champion and fighting for your God. There is a difference between being an Archeologist and discovering massive secrets, stealing ancient Netherese loot, and exploring constantly. Not having this specific PrC limits you in absolutely no way, and I think it's perfectly suited to be an awesome little thing for Roguey-types, to make them even more desired on dungeon raids.

Quoted because I agree.  I think the theme should have stuck with "Indiana Jones" rather than trying to be a little bit to everybody.  Unless the caster in question intended to multi-class into rogue anyway, there is really no reason why a caster would take this class.

You're a sneak, explorer and dungeon looter - that's it, basically.

[Howlando]

A wizard (scholar) that multiclasses to Archeologist will still get all the benefits of additional spells (just not caster level/extra wizard feat, which is an acceptable trade off) and in exchange get all the skills needed to disable the traps, open the locks, etc. to get to the places where they need to conduct their arcane research.

I am thinking about PCs like IX, and NPCs like Bell, Faussad, etc.

It's certainly not a weak prestige class by any means.

[Random_White_Guy]

It would have definitely thrived within the Spellguard, for sure, that you mention Ix. Machine stuff, etc.

I think on the whole it is a very nice addition to Caster PRCs. I always thought there were far too few of them.

[MasterAvenger]

Ironically, I have been trying out various builds in singleplayer with the Archeologist before I stumbled on this thread. I'm honored to have a character of mine mentioned here!

The PrC can be very strong under the right circumstances - however, it doesn't start to shine until its fourth level, so it needs to be taken extremely early. As noted, this can presumably be difficult to achieve at level 2. Its major caveat is that it simply can't beat a Bard in Lore checks - and Lore is a very very important component of exploration. The default Harper Scout gave Bardic Knowledge, it's unfortunate it got cut. The spell Identify does not take into consideration Archeologist levels.

Assuming 14 intelligence:
Level 7 Bard: 10 (ranks) + 2 (int mod) + 7 (bardic knowledge) + 17 (identify+level bonus) = 36 Lore (39 with Skill Focus)
Level 1 wiz/1 rog/5 arc: 10 (ranks) + 2 (int mod) + 11 (identify+level bonus) + 3 (skill focus) = 26 Lore

If this is viewed as problematic, the possible solutions are granting Identify 1/day (+15-11 = 30), Bardic Knowledge (+5 = 31), Epic Skill Focus: Lore (+10 = 36), or granting Legend Lore 1/day (+12 = 38 ).

I believe the worst ability the PrC grants is its hit dice upgrade. Since it applies solely to level 4 and 5, if you are extremely lucky this translates into a maximum of 4 additional hit points over two levels. Very underwhelming, but since it isn't the focus of the class, I prefer to see it as icing on the cake, and have no problem with it. Toughness would be better, since it's retroactive. I am aware, and others should be too, that for a casting class, the d6 base hit dice is a wonderful thing.

However, much more damaging to the class, is that the override does not grant Skill Focus: Disable Traps as it should - instead, it grants Skill Focus: UMD. Since this is the focus of the class, I hope it gets fixed eventually!

Spells: Arcane and Divine spell slots become available as if the character gained levels in their caster class; they do not gain caster levels or learn new spells.

For some reason, in singleplayer, it took 2 Archeologist levels to get the spell slot effects of one level of the caster class. For instance, a level 3 cleric/3 wizard/4 Archeologist had the spell slots of a level 5 cleric/5 wizard instead of 7 cleric/7 wizard. It's possible that this property works on EfU:A but not in singleplayer, I suppose. This ability working correctly would go a long way to making the class desirable!

Similarly, a Ranger does unlock his spell slots from the Archeologist levels, but will not know any spell to memorize until he has 4 Ranger levels. Silly Rangers.

My view of the Archeologist - and I would have taken it in a heartbeat with any of my exploring characters - is about high Lore, and navigating treacherous unexplored grounds thanks to his trap-negating abilities, supplemented by his spells. Unfortunatly, the absence of Skill Focus: Disable Traps (despite being mentionned here), as well as overall lower Lore than a Bard's, tarnishes this image somewhat.

[Caddies]

I think adding Evasion on first or second level and maybe Legend Lore once/day on fourth or fifth would compliment this PRC nicely.

[ScottyB]

I suppose Epic SF: Lore could be worked in at some point.

Evasion applies to all reflex saves, and with the exception of Tymora's Smile, I'd rather the class be focused on trap saves; maybe each level should grant the Uncanny Dodge increases.

It's a shame that the SF:UMD instead of Device was never reported as a bug; I'll get around to fixing that.

[Nihm]

How about working some poison resistance in there for the dreaded gas traps and ruins-infesting dire spiders with 453 Spot and Listen.

[tooh]

Archeologists beware kryptonite !