Archeologist

[Semli]

Palemasters really need the undead grafts to get by.  Trading in the ability to associate with most NPCs and PCs just based on your readily apparent features should mean that you get substantial benefits as compensation.  An Archaeologist shouldn't typically have this problem, however.

Conversely, I think Tanith's suggestion might need some toning down, but it's definately a step in the right direction.  I should be apping for something I actually want to play rather than just getting some bragging rights on a PC I go suicidal with in two weeks out of boredom.

Garem, I think it's far superior to the previous class progression.  What makes you think it's worse?

[Aldrick Tanith]

You think it's less powerful? :eek:

Granted, it's not a combat powerhouse, but it does exactly what it's supposed to do very well:  open locks, disarm traps, avoid traps, sneak around (get into places it shouldn't), read ancient texts, and search for hidden things.  It's like a specialized rogue.

[Aldrick Tanith]

I think the real test, mechanically, for any class or PrC is this:  What do they do in a standard questing group?

I see the Archaeologist as filling the role of the scout, trap disarmer and chest opener.  He has a decent melee ability, as well, but that isn't his primary focus.  So in essence, an Archaeologist can fill the spot of any rogue in the group, and while he does less damage he is sure to still be useful.

Even if he cannot disarm traps (as it is on some quests), he can still mark them.

[Garem]

Because all of the really useful stuff comes far too late for it to be particularly awesome. Also, 1/day invisibility is pretty amazing. It's your ace in the hole that keeps you safe without pesky AoOs. Plus, most of the benefits from the class come from extra feats- Stealthy and SF: Hide and MS are the most notable ones, both of which are earned at levels 8 and 10 when they're usually not needed because of items. This also means you can't get those feats earlier (when they are significantly more helpful!) or you gain nothing from leveling up from feats. Invisibility 1/day is just superior to Stealth, mechanically.

If this is supposed to be an Indiana Jones or Lara Croft replica PrC, it has missed the mark (in my opinion). Why? Both of them kick ass in combat and pull off moves that can't be mimicked in NWN, largely due to mechanical and game limitations. We also face much, much scarier things in EfUA than Indiana who fights mostly humans, and Lara has guns. Also, when things get tough for these two, what is their first reaction- RUN! We can't do that, or we don't get any rewards! Almost everything in EfUA and NWN is earned by killing something, barring when there is a DM to oversee things. We don't have the DMing power to constantly write and oversee events with the kind of frequency to make this a fulfilling PrC to take. I envision this as a "good in theory, poor in practice" sort of thing, hence I suggest something to give the class something special or this "adventuring" class is going to be doing a whole lot of nothing in combat, waiting for that ONE little spot on the DM event/scripted quest (that they've already done...) where they get to shine. Or the bard with them will just cast Identify and translate the book for them. "Oh, that's what that book says, Mr. Archy-PrC? Swell, but now we have to go kill Boss X to get anything out of this dig (like our lives!), so step aside and read your book or polish your digging tools while I get you out of this mess."

Am I being cynical or realistic? Probably both. Maybe you think the Archy PrC is just supposed to be a really cool RP class. Well, that's a fair point I suppose, but if it's a purely RP class, why bother making this technical mechanical setup for it when the mechanics REALLY don't matter so much in the first place, being an RP class? To that end, to hell with an App process and having to earn real estate (which we all know to be difficult and time-consuming for DMs and players alike, and for little benefit to any other players in this instance!), I'll just take a few Skill Focus feats, keep my balanced standard class (pure rogues and rangers are pretty damned good classes), and call myself an Archeologist and equally perform the PrC in one or two of the five or so aspects but be only a few points behind in the others.

To reign it back in, I do not think the idea of this class is a bad one, I am just wary of what Tanith is talking about-- taking it for the flashy title with no significant benefits.

Edit/Adding:
"It's like a specialized rogue." -Tanith

Yep. Without Sneak Attacks and 1 less skill per level (although, with extra feats, grossing a large sum at the first level in particular).

[Aldrick Tanith]

If you still need more power, then I'd propose the following enhancements to my original suggestion.

•  Remove all feats from the PrC, and instead make it flat skill bonuses.
•  You gain +2 to open lock, search, lore and disarm trap per level, giving you a max of +10 at 10th level.
•  +2 to Hide and Move Silently at both third and forth level of the PrC.  (That would be 8th and 9th level respectively.)
•  At the second level of the PrC (7th PC level), add intelligence modifier to all saving throws.  (Works just like a Paladin's bonuses from Charisma, and for most PC's taking this PrC that means +2 to all saves.)
•  At fifth level (10th PC level) drop Tymora's Smile and give a flat +2 to all saves.

That allows you to take the feats early, while still remaining true to the original vision of the PrC.

[Garem]

Well done, Tanith. I REALLY like this version. This gives Archeologists monk-like survivability but without the unique combat bonuses (ImpKDs and Flurry). I do think the H/MS should be lumped in with the other skills (again, by level 8 +2/+2 isn't worth that much) though. It makes the PrC kinda front heavy, and might lead people to take only a level or two, but hopefully not.

NOW you're looking a little more like Indy and Lara. People will always be asking "HOW did they survive that?". This is a lot closer to that vision.

[ScottyB]

God I hate scripting class-specific features. Also, math.

Edit: Not yet available for download, but: the page has been updated

[Snoteye]

available for download

[Egon the Monkey]

Oh, now you're talking.
Much better. Taking this with some caster levels and then getting the extra slots for metamagic or scroll learnign, then the auto still spell feat is badass. However, it seems like what everyone wants is Indiana Jones not Doctor Spock :P.

Could I suggest if you really don't want to up the BAB, to add the feats:
Favoured Enemy: Undead
Favoured Enemy: Construct
Favoured Enemy: Vermin
That makes the class particularly good at defending itself against the things that harass explorers the most, and works off having a detailed knowledge.


Since the "Indiana Jones" more rogueish PrC idea seems popular, I've have a crack at a PrC blueprint that's more combative and based around the idea of "get in, nab the relic, and be able to slip past or disable anyone who's after you" It's here (clicky)

[Aldrick Tanith]

I wasn't going to respond to this thread again, because I already put forward my suggestions... but what the hell.  I want to throw a comparison up, to illustrate why the Archaeologist is a weak PrC, and why someone skilled and talented like ScottyB could better be served doing something else.  

First of all, let's establish this fact:  to take full advantage of this PrC you are going to have to reach level ten.  I have never had a level ten PC my entire career on EfU which has been three years.  I have not had a level nine character, either.  Aldrick is my second level eight character.  I am just throwing that out there for prospective.

Second, PrC's are application only.  As such DM's have complete control over who gets to play them and who does not.  Even if you made this PrC into all it could potentially be, it would still be no where near as powerful as say:  a werewolf.  At the moment, it is more like you are applying to be a kobold.

Assuming you get your application approved and magically reach tenth level, take a tenth level rogue and a fifth level rogue / fifth level archaeologist side by side.  What are the benefits of becoming an archaeologist?

Skill wise, you receive +2 to Open Lock, Disable Trap, Lore and Search.  You might get +4 Search indoors only, assuming you are not a dwarf otherwise it is just redundant.  You get Cat's Grace once per day, which is good, although that heavily depends on duration.  You get a much better will save which is great.  You get +4 Saves vs Traps, which is also great.  You get +2 to all saves for five turns, although let's hope Murphy's Law doesn't hold true - otherwise when you need it most you won't have it ready.  Although Invisibility once per day is great, it is one of the most prevalent potions in the game no doubt right after healing as it is equally important for survival.  

You get all of that, at the expense of three less skill points per level.  You get lower AB.  You get less sneak attack.  You don't get tumble.  You get fewer skills in general.  Although you do get skill mastery as an  archaeologist at level ten, you can also take it as a level ten rogue.  The difference, however, is that you can choose from a list of other potential feats.  The skill points gained as an Archaeologist are easily made up for through items.  The magic related enhancements are useless to you.  Darkvision by and large is pointless, and in some cases completely redundant because you already have it.

Now keep all the above in mind, and also remember that you have to send in an application to get this PrC and understand that a lot of the benefits it gives you are very situational.  Disable Trap, for example, is only useful on quests with traps.  However, conversely, the negatives that exist are always present.  You always have fewer skill points and have a lower AB.

Don't forget that Hit Die increase it only matters if you make tenth level.  It is not retroactive.

So, I believe it is pretty clear.  Why would anyone take this class over multi-classing into a rogue and then call themselves an Archaeologist?  It does not really matter RP wise.  Pretty much the only benefit to taking this PrC is for the increased will save, but you could take bard for that and get more useful skills and abilities plus higher lore.

[ScottyB]

Skill Focus are +3 each, not +2.

I knocked Skill Mastery down to 4th level Archaeologist, which for a rogue could be taken as soon as level 7, if you manage to get the class at level 3 (steal a dead man's discovery?)

HD increase should also apply to the level you receive it, right?

I have never seen this class as combat-oriented. More of a "dodge the traps, pilfer some magic" class. Perhaps it needs more Uncanny Dodges?

[Egon the Monkey]

I'd say give it Evasion. I'm surprsied it doesn't have it.

[Caddies]

Are the updated bonuses those originally suggested by Howland?

[ScottyB]

I believe Howland's original idea was completely non-magical. So no, the Auto Still/spell slot ideas weren't his. ;>_>

[Aldrick Tanith]

HD increase should also apply to the level you receive it, right?

I wasn't completely sure on this either, so I asked on IRC and they told me no.  It is why I suggested toughness in my original suggestion.  That's a guaranteed +9 HP when you achieve level nine.

Skill Focus are +3 each, not +2.

I knocked Skill Mastery down to 4th level Archaeologist, which for a rogue could be taken as soon as level 7, if you manage to get the class at level 3 (steal a dead man's discovery?)

I personally feel that level three is generally too early for a PrC.  You'd literally be going from the OOC starting area to a major discovery within a matter of hours.  I feel that there -should- be some RP involved before that happens.  

With that in mind, +3 to the core skills of this PrC just feels weak.  I agree that I didn't believe it was highly combat oriented, but if you look at a pure rogue it's all about the trade off.  I generally feel that a PrC should be more powerful in the areas it specializes in.  You become weaker in other areas as a result of your specialization, that being the trade off.  

Also, like Howland, I feel that this PrC should not be focused upon magic.  I think the benefit given to casters is good in regard to leveling up.  It compliments their base class, and makes it an attractive option for clerics, wizards and bards.  However, I don't feel adding Automatic Still Spell is necessary.

I think this PrC should go back to the drawing board and figure out what it is trying to do.  Is it trying to be Indiana Jones or is it trying to be a scholar?  It just isn't clear.  I think the question of what role the Archaeologist will play, both in terms of contributing RP wise and mechanically to groups should be answered.  Once it is clear how it fits into the overall scheme of EfU:  A then I think it should be easy to fix any issues with it from there.

Right now, people seem to hold conflicting views over what it should actually be and it has a case of identity crisis.

I'm really thankful for all the time and work you're putting into this, Scotty.  I hope I'm not coming off as ungrateful.  I just don't want to see your time wasted on something that the majority of people don't even give a second look.  I think this PrC has potential thematically for EfU:  A if implemented properly.  It just needs to figure out what it is trying to be.