Wordless PVP

[granny]

I don't remember if it was canzah or caster who had the most interesting werewolf I ever met in EFU in these months I have been playing with you guys.

My interactions with the werewolf were mostly PVPing and I usually lost. Even so, the player managed to make them all pretty interesting and made me really fear the woods.

First of all, I couldn't detct the werewolf (she was using stealth), so the player sent me tells like "you notice the nearby bush to be moving" or "you could swear you heard footsteps behind you" and so on. I was being stalked and I knew it... I had no place to run away. When things got darker, I turned invisible (sorc), but I was encumbered, couldn't run away. So, it was easy for the werewolf see me and stalk me more. It was a really interesting interaction. The werewolf teased me a lot and didn't take anything from me, other than my confidence.

I enjoyed it a lot and I hope to see more of this kind of thing more often.

[The Old Hack]

Simple way of summing this up: Wordless PvP sucks. If someone responds to potential PvP by invising and running, they are themselves doing wordless PvP. After all, 'flight' is the other half of the 'fight' reflex.

Mind you, I think it is important to remember that 'flight' _is_ reflexive and that many people fear ganks so much that running is their first impulse. Rather than saying that people suck, I would state that they need to work on overruling their reflexes. I am not excluding myself from this -- I myself have very BAD reflexes left over from WoW and these have sometimes led me to such memorable RP actions as casting defense spells when I see someone setting me to Hostile. :( (I wonder if there is a way of entirely eliminating the 'X now Dislikes you' message? It is pure meta information and thus only disruptive to the roleplay and mood.)

As to invis ganks, they can be done with class and without. And much of the class depends on two things: 1) whether previous hostility existed between the characters and 2) how post-fight RP is handled. Remember that you are dealing with friends you have just beaten -- the least you can do is to show some respect in the post-fight RP. Ingame, the person you just beat is your enemy. In the real world, he is your friend sitting next to you at the virtual gaming table. Keep that in mind, do you want him to have fun or to feel bad?

~tOH.

[Random_White_Guy]

The largest problem with making things "Fun" for the one being abused is that so often the instigator is not left with things fun.

Playing a bandit is great when you can find a PC out wandering alone, run in, drop a line or two, then start fighting and give chance.

When a bandit isn't fun is when a PC doesn't emote or RP or anything but simply invis + run + Sending + Searchparty + "IT WAS THIS GUY, HE WAS WEARING A HELM BUT IT WAS TOTALLY HIM BECAUSE WE MET TWICE BEFORE".

If DMs want to start implementing a more fair and balanced Disguise system, you may find yourself with more interactions with PCs. As it stands even saying one word is enough I have seen from interactions for a PC to identify you and a DM to say "Sorry, you don't have enough bluff".

Also remember the story doesn't end just because you got mugged. It's a very IC action to try and round up your friends and begin pursuing bandits in the wilds, work with the Muster as an informant, or a variety of other tools of RP at your disposal that can come from a beating and some theft.

Play along as the victim. Stay subdued or show fear when ambushed in these situations.

I guarantee you, as a bandit style PC-

I am more inclined to help a PC have fun who drops some things and screams "OH GOD DON'T KILL ME" and runs away.

Than if I subdue someone, they spend five minutes running their mouth either IC about "How dead I am", and how they're gonna get all their buddies together, etc.

[Decimate_The_Weak]

On EfU:A, I played a particular PC that would walk without invis (not 100% of the time), though near fully buffed, within the central district. 3/4 times people got the jump on me & at those times it built some pretty great conflict.

When the conflict came to a climax between my PC & their own, we would sometimes fight under mutual agreement within the central district. It was quite fun & I would like to point out why it was fun on my part & likely their own.

-

Not only was it mutual, but it was a 1v1 between two PCs that had built conflict between each other over a period of time & have exchanged many words toward one another. They were enemies, plain & simple. When we'd fight we'd often times get spectators, but note: spectators. Though at times it makes sense for your buddies to jump in it is most often done so because the players within the vicinity lunge at the chance to "win" in this situation or to avoid risk.

If you apply "real life logic" to this; When one of your buddies after school goes to meet Bully X at the playground, 9/10, unless your other buddies want a romp & stomp to toss the guy to the hospital, it's going to be a game of 1v1 mano-e-mano with the exception of someone intervening just to keep it from going too far.

Can you imagine, if every player, though not at every time, honored something like this? It's far more interesting, far more fun & has a much higher chance of furthering our story if it's an epic fight between two rivals rather than a mob chase or gank. Something to think about, huh?

-

Always remember that it's up to you to stir the pot as well as serve it, but always remember that sooner or later you'll be tasting another player's stew & if you've been mixing in foul ingredients in your own they very well may do the same!

Story is the most important & fun part of EfU. Let's keep it that way.

[TeufelHunden]

Another note is when you're being a tough guy on the ground and I am obviously an evil person why do you think it would be so illogical for me to kill you? Why should I let you live while you shit talk me about how you're going to get me back and how I'm such and such. I have FDed someone I was going to let go because they sat there shit talking me for 5 minutes as I selectively picked a few things to rob him of and just said fuck it this guy WANTS me to kill him.

[granny]

I canno't go far from what you guys are saying.
Even when I got a PC of mine that I want killed, the player base hardly will FD them. You guys are really nice ^^

[Letsplayforfun]

Bottom line is in tight spots, some people are scared to rp because they prefer to win a video game. Shame, hu.

I do see some trying to, but the opposite party is too bent on quickly drinking the appropriate potions or running halfway across the island in full plate carrying the body of a subdued guy. Shame.

I mean when you KD someone, you have a full round to boast over him. When he's paralyzed, entangled, you can move away and gloat, not just enjoy the sneak attack. Sure you're loosing tactical moments, but who cares? Before you start to fight you can rp. When someone's clearly going to mug you but is taking time to rp, it's poor form to just click on your quickslots to get headstart in buffs. Let his speak his piece, at the very least.

Other similar issue: be mindful of what pvp you're in. Most people pulling a greataxe on someone that just punched them is just silly. I've given up brawls on efu.

Does it make IC sense? Sometimes, probably. Does it make the story better? ...

If you just rp when the pvp is over, well, you're missing 2/3 of it.

Try it, when it works out, it's pretty fun. Usually, pvp's only fun is the adrenaline rush it brings. It can be much more, even if it means loosing it more.

[River Walker]

(I wonder if there is a way of entirely eliminating the 'X now Dislikes you' message? It is pure meta information and thus only disruptive to the roleplay and mood.)

The "/c hostile" command does not show the meta information to the other player. I usually have "/c hostile area" and "/c unhostile all" set to quickslots. Those two plus the new PvP Player Tool make it very easy to manage hostility without giving out too much meta information to others.

[sylvyrdragon]

We all need to remember there are two sides to the "PvP".  There is the aggressor and there is the target.  Being the target when "earned" should be expected,  now I'm not saying the Gank Squad should assemble, but you should expect to be attacked if you are the Big Bad, the Random Bandit, or even the "Hero".  Being a target should be something to be proud of, it means you've done something to earn other players attention.

Now, being a random out of the blue, who the hell are you, and why are you attacking me.. SUCKS.  Showing a bit of class as the Bandit goes a long way in my book.  Now don't get me wrong, depending on the character, I might attack you before you get the change to mug me, or I might shudder and cry and cower and just give you what ever it is you want so long as you don't hurt me. But, give me a chance to respond to your attempt at mugging me before I'm on the ground without a chance to do a damned thing.

Just my thoughts on the matter.  As the aggressor or the target, making it mean something is important.

[Numos]

I agree 100% with sylverdragon. If you decide to be a merciless  badass you should face the consequences of people maybe wanting to  murder you quickly and quietly without the courtesy of initiating a  duel. if you're robbing someone or decide to join a mob in lynching the local necromancer you should show some courtesy.

One of the better PVPs I've been involved with was being stalked by a werewolf at 5th level. We fought, and the werewolf won, but it wasn't a straight up fight where we buffed and went at it. She snapped at me, I hit her and she ran away, I yelled at her to shoo and she snarled back, I magic-missiled her and she charged back in to knock me down.

Instead of being a random gank it turned out to be a fun encounter hopefully for both parties: (1) my PC lived and had a story to tell; (2) hers gained some notoriety. The reason this was successful is because both parties took the time to introduce some rp into the fight and went at a slower pace; and neither took advantage of the fact the other stopped to speak.

For this to work it needs to be mutual. If the wizard chooses to summon some scrubs then stands back to cackle maniacally, the fighter could choose to hammer away at the summons and shout back some insults, rather than charging in to power attack/knockdown because the wizard isn't rattling off hold person straight after.

[granny]

One of the better PVPs I've been involved with was being stalked by a werewolf at 5th level. We fought, and the werewolf won, but it wasn't a straight up fight where we buffed and went at it. She snapped at me, I hit her and she ran away, I yelled at her to shoo and she snarled back, I magic-missiled her and she charged back in to knock me down.

my favorite werewolf aswell...
we should build a shrine for her

[Aethereal]

I think its a good idea to pay more thought to your PvP in terms of its contribution to story development AND enjoyment on both sides, definitely.

Bandits shouldn't be motivated by an OOC creed of: "I'm going to steal gold so I can buy supplies so that I can steal more gold more effectively." And more about how these interactions add up to expand the narrative - creating notoriety, spreading fear, etc.

In a relatively recent incident, in which my PC was a victim, I could detect it was the intent of the player/s to be able to get away with something without being identified at all, that their justification for including even a little bit of dialogue was a minor consideration of: "saying nothing wouldn't be approvable etiquette." It was a good start to making it flavourful and I am sure there was a decent amount of preparation and plotting to see the heist undertaken but it was the base minimum. I know the risks were surely great for those involved as well, but the 'need to win' mentality was definitely still a factor there.

It is still a two way interaction of course, the victim in any encounter should always maintain a cool head OOC no matter what and I can understand not everyone being comfortable with that, in which case the reflex of 'invis + run' may trigger as if your life is being threatened flight is indeed a justified and instinctual reaction. To outright demand nobody does this, seems folly - as there may be good reason for it IC, especially as there are assassins within the game world who will kill a PC if that is their contract.

It is difficult to override instinct and it is most definitely a skill to be able to remain calm in heated situations or be able to retain the best of your thinking capacity in a heightened emotional state (anger, fear, frustration and other emotions which definitely can be elicited through the game and more specifically PvP). A skill which you could well practice mastery of in the virtual world, if you so wish.

Tl/DR:

At the end of the day: just try to be more thoughtful about the experience you are creating and its contribution to the narrative rather than the desire for mechanical advantage or gain through virtual loot / currency; whether this means not looting to a crippling degree or choosing to spare a life rather than take it. The onus for this falls upon the initiator/victor of any PvP but the opposing side is just as responsible in making it a fair experience; whether that means not sending OOC tells of rage, or playing your character fairly IC as versus refusing to roleplay at all.

I'm disinclined to give examples of what not to do, as this one seems trite and grossly exaggerated and may indeed be IC for some PCs who have a deathwish: but perhaps not scream and threaten death upon the other PC, while you are at their mercy? It destroys the value of victory, I imagine, and generally comes off as OOC player ego rather than something a real person would do if their life was threatened.

[AKMatt]

While it's more enjoyable to have your character end as the result of a dramatic showdown, the invisible gank does have its place on EfU.  I've been the victim of such tactics many times, and also employed them twice.  I would say it's best to exercise caution when deciding to employ the "invis-gank" technique, if only because it's so rarely the most stylish choice.

My favorite uses of it are in situations where the perpetrator (let us refer to this character as the "gankist"):

A: Does not intend to kill.

B: Is absurdly outmatched (usually aiming for a comedic defeat after the initial panic of those surrounding their target).

C: Legitimately deserves to destroy their victim in such a ruthless manner, preferably in public.

In general, it's safest to assume you do not belong to category C.

Always keep the story in mind.  A technique commonly employed by modern authors is the "Try-Fail Sequence."  The idea is that, on their way to accomplishing a task, a protagonist should fail at least twice before succeeding.  For the purposes of EfU, this isn't always going to be the case.  Some goals, such as successfully defeating a DM quest antagonist, or obtaining a plot-related item, might be accomplished on the first attempt.  Others, such as taking down a long-standing NPC villain or building something new in the setting, will requiring an on-going struggle, replete with all manner of setbacks and even the good chance that you'll never succeed.  There are many reasons for this, but the most important has always been to preserve the significance of accomplishments.

How this relates to PVP is this: you ought to go about things in a way that promotes this kind of engaging character arc.  Overcoming obstacles doesn't always mean removing them.  I could provide a few specific examples of how to resolve inter-character conflicts in more interesting ways than "I go invisible, take your life and then your stuff, then make a forum post about it," but I think the players here have healthy enough imaginations to conjure up some excellent scenarios on their own.

If this post seems long-winded and meandering, that's because it is.  For purposes of keeping the story interesting, variety is essential, and many approaches to any given issue can become valid over time.

[Valo56]

B: Is absurdly outmatched (usually aiming for a comedic defeat after the initial panic of those surrounding their target).

Brings back memories of the time I tried to invis-gank Agneodaniach. It took him a moment to realize he was under attack and I was already subdued by one of his summons. :P

[wcsherry]

Sometimes it needs to happen. Generally wordless PvP happens because your character has earned this sort of attack through his actions in game.

Also, try playing a bandit PC. Walk up to a mob of travellers and tell them to pay up. I doubt they'll give you much roleplay in response, but can guarantee they will immediately chug potions and try to beat you up. Yet another case of wordless PvP.

Long story short, roll with the punches. Sometimes, as the famous phrase goes, shit happens.